Help me understand basketball

Five Cent Head

64th note
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Jul 17, 2007
764
Seattle
How can I learn more about basketball? I don't mean how to play it: I do not have the ability or inclination or time to play. I mean that I want to be a more educated fan. The fact that I don't play may mean that I will never have a deep understanding, but I think I can understand it better than I do.

I realize that there is an inherent problem with NBA broadcasts. I'm an academic, and I recognize that I can speak differently to my students at the end of the term: use more sophisticated language, refer to concepts from earlier, etc. Sports broadcasters can't do this: they have to aim, or at least they believe that have to aim, their broadcasts at viewers who may be watching their first games. I understand that, but it also makes me wish that there were alternate broadcast teams with more sophisticated descriptions.

Let me give a few examples: on the positive side, there was a play in a recent Boston game where Tatum (I think) had the ball and White made a cut from the top of the arc toward the basket. This opened up a lot of space for someone else at the top of the arc, and Tatum passed to him for an open shot. I did not catch this in real time, but Scalabrine pointed it out, and then I could rewind and watch. This was very educational, but it's the exception to what happens in most broadcasts. In contrast, I feel like I get dumber every time I hear a game with Mark Jackson on the broadcasting team.

I think the Athletic is a good resource, but I feel like I have some fundamental holes in my understanding that they aren't going to address. For instance, I heard Zack Lowe and a guest on his podcast talking about Rudy Gobert, how he is just not a good player on offense. Why not? Is there something intrinsic about his body type or his vision or something else (?) that means he can never be a good player on offense, or does he just not put in the required work to develop post moves?
 

luckiestman

Son of the Harpy
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
32,623
The national broadcasts suck. YouTube is probably the best. You can look up concepts of different styles of offense and defense.

A lot of NBA is pick and roll over and over. Watching GS set screens and double screens for Curry. In the first matchup against the Cavs I think they might have been setting triple screens. Maybe I’m hallucinating that.

A lot of people here know a lot about basketball(not me) but reading is a way worse way to learn than watching YouTube.

View: https://youtu.be/nJZ0nsswx8s
 
Last edited:

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
21,770
Pittsburgh, PA
There are a lot of film-study articles in The Athletic that I've found to be invaluable in conditioning me to understand what I'm seeing as I'm seeing it. If you're a subscriber, you'll see them occasionally come up. Here's one from the other day:

https://theathletic.com/4080964/2023/01/11/celtics-rob-williams-start/


Likewise, another site that'll be great for its signal-to-noise, combining film study with narrative and stats, is the Backpicks Top 40 list, which I and others consider a pretty authoritative and exhaustive approach to ranking the best players in NBA history. Each of the top 20 or so have very in-depth film studies attached to the description of what made those specific players great.

https://thinkingbasketball.net/2017/12/11/the-backpicks-goat-the-40-best-careers-in-nba-history/

If you like that Top 40, you'll probably love Ben Taylor's book, whose more-academic narrative structure may be a great fit for your learning style.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
30,506
Rudy Gobert is not good on offense because he doesn't have any offensive moves other than dunking.

How deep do you want to get? As posted above, there's a LOT of stuff on the internet. Here's a group that does really in-depth analysis - https://www.youtube.com/@SlappinGlass/videos - probably not somewhere to start but you can start watching and figure out what you need to learn!
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
22,674
I'd say just pay attention to whatever I post in the Port Cellar.
 

kfoss99

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2009
1,194
There's Tex Winter's book "The Triple-Post Offense." I'm not sure if you can download it from somewhere. It was initially published in 1968 and reprinted in 1997. Winter's offense was implemented by Phil Jackson's Chicago Bulls teams that won 6 championships.

Also, I think YouTube has some of Red Auerbach's old tutorials.

I second everyone above that mentioned Ben Taylor's Thinking Basketball.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
Rudy Gobert is not good on offense because he doesn't have any offensive moves other than dunking.
It is so much deeper than this as how this unique players are utilized in a teams system plays a larger role. I watched Gobert for years in Utah while people spoke of how awful of an offensively player he was…..yet he was such an player in the Jazz offense due to HOW he was utilized as a roller to the rim where he’s as big a threat as any player in the league. Year over year the Jazz offense was much more effective with Gobert providing spacing by being such a threat rolling to the rim which opened up penetrating lanes and prevented teams from being in position to defend kick outs to the perimeter.

I haven’t peaked into his impact on the T-Wolves offense but in the games I’ve watched by the eye test he isn’t being used nearly enough in his best offensive role.
 

bankshot1

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 12, 2003
24,662
where I was last at
watch the game with the sound off.

no distractions, just you taking in the game and processing what you've experienced.

then read an article or two to see what the beat guys say and compare thoughts.

and don't take online chat rooms too seriously, most fans way over-react to the good and bad

watch some "Red on Roundball" (videos from the 70s IIRC, but probably on youtube) and he'll explain the basics of the game

BUTT (big but) Red liked making the next pass, putting pressure on the D, and emphasizing fast transition basketball and getting the easy close shot. Todays NBA would render Red a stranger in a strange land. But I suspect he would adapt.

Mostly have fun watching its a beautiful game.
 
Last edited:

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
12,001
Second the recommendation to watch Youtube. Thinking Basketball is probably the best-produced while still getting deep into the game and the mechanics of what teams are trying to do with various actions.
 

Five Cent Head

64th note
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Jul 17, 2007
764
Seattle
Thanks to everyone for the suggestions. Please keep them coming, and I hope I'm not the only one who appreciates all of them!
 

Pablo's TB Lover

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 10, 2017
5,963
I'd echo the above, and go to Youtube for breakdowns. It feels like 20+ years ago there were more half-hour/one hour weekly shows like like NBA Inside Stuff and NBA Today that were a lot of fluff but also had the occasional "chalkboard" breakdowns, but the internet lets you get the good stuff faster I suppose. Basketball, like hockey, is a tough sport to get deep into the X's and O's live, whereas baseball offers a lot more downtime for strategic discussion. The national broadcasts are lowest common denominator in addition to trying to pack even more commercials in than the local broadcasts. Scal and the NBCSN producers are good about coming from a commercial and taking apart a play from the previous stretch to show the reasoning behind it.

Edit: or you can just learn about rebounding from Red Auerbach and Bill Russell:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgJGAGo2rJU
 
Last edited:

Jed Zeppelin

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2008
51,335
I don’t have good external suggestions because I have just watched a fucktonne of basketball and spent insane amounts of time in this forum.

The one thing I would most call out that is still not so well understood even with more advanced stats is defense. As mentioned, so much of the offensive game now is based on setting screens to get your best guys matched up against the worst defenders on the other side. It’s why things can be so difficult when you have even one really little guy like IT or even late-era Kemba. There’s nothing you can do to hide someone like that, any decent offense will just wreck you.

That is why at their best the recent Celtics teams have been such demons on D. They can switch everything, with any defender being able to defend any player, 1 through 5, so while Marcus Smart may get a ton of credit for his defensive rep, it is the combo of him + Al + Timelord + Tatum etc etc being really good defenders.

Also, watch Jayson Tatum play defense. He often looks like he isn’t even working that hard but opponents can almost never break him down off the dribble. When he is fully engaged it’s near-impossible, which is a massive feat against the really elite ball handlers. He’ll never get the credit he fully deserves on D because his offense is so good and that remains the sexier part of the game (except for blocks, people instantly think blocks = good defense but they are often not right or not fully right at least).

Just spend time watching how a good defense moves together like a liquid flowing around to fill an oddly shaped and constantly shifting container. This alone will help you get a better sense of how offenses work to get good shots (and how hard it is to truly play tough defense for 48minutes these days).
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,467
Depending how deep you want to get, two guys to take a look at on Twitter (and elsewhere) are:

Steve Jones Jr.: https://twitter.com/stevejones20 He's a former Nets Assistant coach and video coordinator for Nets and Grizzlies.
Mo Dakhil: https://twitter.com/MoDakhil_NBA Former video coordinator for Clippers and Spurs.

Both of them either write or do podcasts, but one of the most accessible and most in depth things they do is break down clips from games on twitter (or Twitch) and really get into what each team is trying to do on specific plays. It can help a lot in figuring out how much more is going on than you might realize from just TV commentary.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
Thanks to everyone for the suggestions. Please keep them coming, and I hope I'm not the only one who appreciates all of them!
Take notes of questions you have when you’re watching a game and list them here for feedback and discussion.
 

OurF'ingCity

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 22, 2016
8,469
New York City
Take notes of questions you have when you’re watching a game and list them here for feedback and discussion.
Agreed. But also, as simple as it sounds, just Googling will probably give you a ton of helpful stuff. For example, just googling “NBA defensive strategies” brings back some pretty in-depth articles, including this one, which contains a lot of video clips as well.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
Agreed. But also, as simple as it sounds, just Googling will probably give you a ton of helpful stuff. For example, just googling “NBA defensive strategies” brings back some pretty in-depth articles, including this one, which contains a lot of video clips as well.
Yes for sure. I should have been more specific. I was referring to intracscies during the game that peaked his curiosity. Some examples could be regarding end of Q clock management strategies, ways to hide stars defensively when in foul trouble, purpose of the Rondo inbounds roll, ways certain player defend the post, etc.
 

bankshot1

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 12, 2003
24,662
where I was last at
The inconsistencies in NBA reffing is legend and maddening.
But it is what it is.
And has been and will be forever.

This is hard to do because we're trained to watch the ball, but watch the other players on offense and watch how they move and you can get a sense of the play they want to run, who they want to expose on D, or how in your mind the play might develop (ie an option if plan A, or B, doesn't happen).

WBW I used to sit in the 2nd balcony at the garden, behind the baskets and from that vantage points, you could see the plays and the flow of the game. It was a great learning experience.
 

singaporesoxfan

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 21, 2004
11,882
Washington, DC
Many thanks for this thread - I had time to kill in LA before a late-night flight and I ended up getting a ticket to watch Clippers-Nuggets and it made watching the game more enjoyable
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
I thought of this thread watching the final minutes of the Knicks win yesterday. I’ve long been a fanboy of the highest of high IQ point guards. Old timers here will remember my lust for watching Andre Miller & Sam Cassell back in the day, Chris Paul & LeBron of this era…..and Reggie Theus, Rod Strickland & John Bagley prior to that but I digress.

This has to do with the inbounder rolling the ball as the receiver (usually the PG) walking down the ball prior to picking it up typically near midcourt. I’m sure most viewers are thinking, “What’s the point? What’s the purpose? Pick up the damn ball you’d never see Cousy do this shit!” Anyway, there are several advantages you can create based on game time and situation to exploit a loophole in the rules (that may soon be closed so enjoy while you can).

In the NBA the game clock continues to run after made baskets until the final 2:00 of regulation….but the :24 shot clock does not begin until the ball touches a player inbounds and they gain possession. As the Knicks were protecting an 8-12 pt lead down the stretch, Jalen Brunson began taking seconds off the clock around the 5:00 mark after a Pistons basket but took over :04 off the clock on two more separate occasions once the Pistons scored inside the 3:15 mark. I’m sitting here watching one player think many steps ahead while the Pistons guard, I believe it was the rookie Ivey (no shock a vet and son of an NBA PG getting the best of a rook in thinking the game) simply standing there backpedaling slowly as the seconds ticked off the clock.

Now, to be fair to Ivey he may have been protecting himself from another benefit of this strategy. During the course of a game you may see this occur as the defender gets overzealous and lunges at the ball. This is what the PG is waiting for as he scoops it up and gains the angle on defender as he quick-dribbles around him resulting in a 4-on-5 advantage forcing a wing to pick him up which leaves his man open for an uncontested 3 or path to the rim (I first saw this live at a Wake Forest game about 20 years ago which is when I fell in love with Chris Paul’s game). So it could have been that Ivey was aware of the latter but not recognizing the former purpose of Brunson’s action.

Another variant off the previous paragraph is if the defender is in foul trouble and/or you want to get into the bonus or are already in the bonus to get 2 FT’s. I believe it was Paul who did this to Simmons when he had 5 fouls this season and fouled him out. So the next time you’re watching an NBA game and this happens take a look at the game situation and the why behind the PG’s action. Also see how the defender reacts based on the game situation. I saw this in a college game a couple weekends ago and I did chuckle bc it seemed that the PG thought he was letting it roll just to look cool without a purpose bc he could have drew a foul or beat his man off the dribble.

Another reason, although one I don’t see used advantageously as often as it could, can be that you get the ball over halfcourt into your set at say :21 rather than :17 of the shot clock. Anyway, hope this helped some.
 

Five Cent Head

64th note
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Jul 17, 2007
764
Seattle
Here's a question: does anyone important (players, coaches) care about points off turnovers? I can understand paying attention to points off live-ball turnovers, but what about dead-ball turnovers? (It seems to me that when broadcasters mention "points off turnovers," they are including all turnovers, not just live ball, but I might be wrong about this.)