Hayward’s recovery

lexrageorge

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How many bad performances by Hayward do we have to watch before folks start realizing that Mook is a better player?
Sure, Hayward was an all-star--once, two years ago-- and Morris will never be. But that was then, this is now.

There's an opportunity cost to letting Hayward rehab himself at $300K per game.
The alternatives that you think exist actually don't.
 

lovegtm

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The current version of Hayward is not a max player (or close to it), but he's ironically pretty good for what the Celtics need. He's a wing who doesn't need shots (already got paid), who's a smart team defender, spaces the floor, and can attack closeouts.

The Celtics would love to have max Gordon, but this guy is perfectly useable as long as you don't make him something he's not.
 

djbayko

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How many bad performances by Hayward do we have to watch before folks start realizing that Mook is a better player?
Sure, Hayward was an all-star--once, two years ago-- and Morris will never be. But that was then, this is now.

There's an opportunity cost to letting Hayward rehab himself at $300K per game.
What are these opportunities that are being missed out on? The Celtics are not in danger of missing the playoffs. They're going to get a high seed no matter what rotations Brad puts out there. So instead of using minutes this year to see what improvement we can get out of Heyward before the playoffs, we should sit him or trade him in favor of what exactly?
 

Rustjive

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— By all accounts, Paul George’s injury was worse than GH’s, but it’s the closest comp we have. It’s debatable whether PG13 ever regained his pre-injury form; his career certainly never got back on the trajectory it was on back in 2013-14.

— Hayward’s long-term future is unknown, but he’s so far from his pre-injury form that it’s unrealistic to think we’ll see peak GH anytime this season.

I think it’s silly to suggest that the GH we’ve seen so far is the GH we can expect to see forever
Yup. Here's some context:

It's been 6 months since Gordon's second surgery (June 26), a surgery that set his recovery back significantly. As a comparison, Paul George's injury happened August 1, he was shooting jumpers in October 20th, participated in full practices in late February, and played six games at the end of the season, starting April 5th (5.5 months after he started shooting jumpers).

So 5.5 months after he started shooting jumpers, PG13 came back and averaged 8.8/3.7/1 in 6 games that he played.

The comparison isn't apples-to-apples since Gordon's injury isn't the exact same, etc., but it's a reminder that this recovery is a long road.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Yes, they probably don't. It's going to hurt watching Morris playing for another team next year, particularly if he goes back home to Philadelphia.
There is literally nothing the Cs can do about this. There is no way of having GH's salary - or some equivalent - come off the books.

Yes it's too bad that GH isn't right now the same pre-injury guy. But if it makes you feel any better, think of it this way. GH is basically playing the same role - and putting up a lot of the same numbers - as Evan Turner. And ET turned out to play some very valuable minutes for the Cs.
 

the moops

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Mook is starting and finishing BigJohn. Who and what are you arguing against. That Hayward should be sent to the G league? Or perhaps they should just cut him.
Seriously. Morris played the 3rd most minutes on the team. And he was -1 in those minutes. Hayward was +9 in his 28 minutes (8 less than Morris)
 

Big John

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Seriously. Morris played the 3rd most minutes on the team. And he was -1 in those minutes. Hayward was +9 in his 28 minutes (8 less than Morris)
That's a little misleading, since Morris was on the floor when Philly made its run, and Hayward was not. Hayward also played poor defense in the first half.
 

the moops

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That's a little misleading, since Morris was on the floor when Philly made its run, and Hayward was not. Hayward also played poor defense in the first half.
I agree. Was more just reiterating that Morris is playing more minutes than Hayward - so unless you are clamoring for more Semi or someone else, not sure what else there is to do.
 

Big John

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I don't think there is a deal that makes sense now, because as you point out they don't have a good alternative right now. But I can devise a number of deals for draft night, assuming that Hayward's play does not improve significantly.

Off the top of my head, Hayward to the Bulls for Parker and Lopez (both expiring). The Bulls could use an Evan Turner type player, and they had to pay Parker $20M just to make the 90% salary floor. They might be willing to take two more years of Hayward.

You might do something with Orlando and a third team, with Vucevic and Ross coming to Boston, but why would Orlando do that?
 

benhogan

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BJ, if you show some patience, sticking with Hayward will most likely work out. It's the regular season, no reason to get worked up. Getting rid of recent All-Stars while they work their way back from injury is not a sound strategy.

If Gordon gets back to his former self by next season, we'll have a player that's superior to 2018 MaMo
 
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HomeRunBaker

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I don't think there is a deal that makes sense now, because as you point out they don't have a good alternative right now. But I can devise a number of deals for draft night, assuming that Hayward's play does not improve significantly.

Off the top of my head, Hayward to the Bulls for Parker and Lopez (both expiring). The Bulls could use an Evan Turner type player, and they had to pay Parker $20M just to make the 90% salary floor. They might be willing to take two more years of Hayward.

You might do something with Orlando and a third team, with Vucevic and Ross coming to Boston, but why would Orlando do that?
On draft night, none of the players you are mentioning (Parker, Lopez, Vucecic, and Ross) will be expiring........they will have already expired which will make them all free agents.

This thread has completely gone off the rails.
 

TripleOT

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I'm hopeful GH will come around, but this version of Hayward is frustrating to watch. He's way too passive, at both ends of the floor. There seems to be a jogjam for shots for wings on this team. He, Brown, and Tatum have got to figure out how to all impact a game. When those three are on the floor together, it's usually a disaster.

I don't see a way for the Cs to move on from Hayward right now, so they need to figure it out. Even an 85% of his former self GH would be an asset to this team, but at least once a game, I get this "Hayward really sucks feeling." The biggest frustration is that we all know how good this team could be with everyone firing on all cylinders. Hayward, Brown, and Rozier need to get it going for that to happen.
 

HomeRunBaker

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There's a VERY simple solution here...
Stretch Hayward? (I kid, I kid)


I'm hopeful GH will come around, but this version of Hayward is frustrating to watch. He's way too passive, at both ends of the floor. There seems to be a jogjam for shots for wings on this team. He, Brown, and Tatum have got to figure out how to all impact a game. When those three are on the floor together, it's usually a disaster.

I don't see a way for the Cs to move on from Hayward right now, so they need to figure it out. Even an 85% of his former self GH would be an asset to this team, but at least once a game, I get this "Hayward really sucks feeling." The biggest frustration is that we all know how good this team could be with everyone firing on all cylinders. Hayward, Brown, and Rozier need to get it going for that to happen.
The problem isn't Hayward just as it isn't Tatum or isn't Jaylen. At the risk (certainty?) of being redundant the problem is having 5-6 shot creators in your rotation rather than half that amount as was the case last season when we thrived. I feel Hayward IS 85% (or more) of his former self only without the role/platform to perform in with so much uncertainly on the floor where nobody is comfortable playing the game instinctually with so many scorers on the floor. Will I get the ball back if I pass? Should I be aggressive with he ball here? Do I move without the ball toward an unoccupied space not having any clue what decision the creator will make because his head is as convoluted as mine or do I rotate back defensively? There is so much play that isn't instinctual and when players begin thinking prior to making a decision they are now one step behind the defenders mental process but also not on the same page as their teammates.

Kyrie actually did well in this regard most of the game in finding exactly where he wanted to get with the ball for his shot knowing he had a great matchup with the Sixers forced to play Butler on him as they don't have anyone on their roster better suited to compete with Kyrie which will be a problem for them if we meet in the playoffs. Butler defends quick 1's about as well as Smart does.
 
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Jimbodandy

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Stretch Hayward? (I kid, I kid)

The problem isn't Hayward just as it isn't Tatum or isn't Jaylen. At the risk (certainty?) of being redundant the problem is having 5-6 shot creators in your rotation rather than half that amount as was the case last season when we thrived. I feel Hayward IS 85% (or more) of his former self only without the role/platform to perform in with so much uncertainly on the floor where nobody is comfortable playing the game instinctually with so many scorers on the floor. Will I get the ball back if I pass? Should I be aggressive with he ball here? Do I move without the ball not having any clue what decision the creator will make because his head is as convoluted as mine? There is so much play that isn't instinctual and when players begin thinking prior to making a decision they are now one step behind the defenders mental process.

Kyrie actually did well in this regard most of the game in finding exactly where he wanted to get with the ball for his shot knowing he had a great matchup with the Sixers forced to play Butler on him as they don't have anyone on their roster better suited to compete with Kyrie which will be a problem for them if we meet in the playoffs. Butler defends quick 1's about as well as Smart does.
As usual, this is an excellent post.

My only addition is that the last 15% that Hayward is missing is what makes him special (when healthy). 85% of Kyrie isn't great either. It's certainly useful, but it's the difference between rotation player and all star.

Your drumbeat of redundancy has proven to be true. It's clearly problematic enough to contribute to losses and locker room tension. Brad's ability to manage it has been challenged. You were right.

And you are right that it's not one guy or a couple of guys. We have the rest of the regular season to see if Brad has fairy dust and veteran leadership enough to establish the right mixes. If not, only Danny can fix it.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Not sure what you are asking or what Mauf is saying.

We know that Westbrook threw a huge party on June 30, and shortly after midnight (when FA started) PG announced he was staying. https://thunderousintentions.com/2018/06/30/thunder-rumors-russell-westbrook-hosting-party-okc-paul-george-attending/

It's pretty likely LAL never got to make a formal offer, so technically he's right that he never turned down a LAL offer.

However, if Mauf is saying that if PG had waited, LAL wouldn't have given him a max offer, well I disagree with that. If PG had wanted to be in LA, he would have gotten a max offer. http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23956635/with-paul-george-town-russell-westbrook-hosting-summer-hype-house-party
I’m asking if one really thinks that if LBJ wanted PG and PG wanted LBJ that there wasn’t any back channel communications between the two. Max offer is assumed and I don’t think it would have taken a Hamptons level KD pitch tour. That they had a party I think means little. There’s no way in hell (imho) that if they wanted each other, there wasn’t a conversation between PG and LBJ. PG wanted to stay in OKC. As someone upthread or another thread said, the Lakers mythology is overblown. And LeBron is getting old.
 

Big John

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On draft night, none of the players you are mentioning (Parker, Lopez, Vucecic, and Ross) will be expiring........they will have already expired which will make them all free agents. This thread has completely gone off the rails.
Yes, brain fart by me. Those deals would have to be done at the deadline (or before).

Off the rails? It's Hayward's recovery that has gone off the rails. His play ranges from tentative to outright embarrassing.
 

Jimbodandy

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Now we have three reasons to see Hayward return to form--it will help our team win, it will be a nice recovery for a nice guy, and maybe John will shut up.
 

bosox79

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Now we have three reasons to see Hayward return to form--it will help our team win, it will be a nice recovery for a nice guy, and maybe John will shut up.
I doubt it. He's the type of guy to start complaining the day after a title victory.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I doubt it. He's the type of guy to start complaining the day after a title victory.
I mean those summer parades with the sun beating down on you at 2pm are brutal! Why not begin them at 9am so the duck tour is over by noon? So stupid.
 

nighthob

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I’m asking if one really thinks that if LBJ wanted PG and PG wanted LBJ that there wasn’t any back channel communications between the two. Max offer is assumed and I don’t think it would have taken a Hamptons level KD pitch tour. That they had a party I think means little. There’s no way in hell (imho) that if they wanted each other, there wasn’t a conversation between PG and LBJ. PG wanted to stay in OKC. As someone upthread or another thread said, the Lakers mythology is overblown. And LeBron is getting old.
I think I said this a year in advance, that by overplaying its hand the Lakers risked George liking his new location. I made the same remark last summer about the Leonard situation, and so far he's seemed happy with Toronto. I'll laugh heartily if Kawhi re-signs with the Raptors and the Lakers are left signing a flotilla of crap to surround LBJ with.
 

BigSoxFan

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I think I said this a year in advance, that by overplaying its hand the Lakers risked George liking his new location. I made the same remark last summer about the Leonard situation, and so far he's seemed happy with Toronto. I'll laugh heartily if Kawhi re-signs with the Raptors and the Lakers are left signing a flotilla of crap to surround LBJ with.
We won’t be laughing when AD heads to LA. This seems to have been their Plan A all along.
 

nighthob

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We'll be laughing when he leads Boston to the title in 2019 and he re-signs.