Hayward's Injury

reggiecleveland

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Don't forget the rape. I feel like you've forgotten about the rape.
I certainly could have added that as a caveat, but in this knowledgeable forum I assumed any discussion of Kobe begins with him as a horribly selfish person.

I could have said great basketball player. And he was that. But I did use it in past tense. The guy has good qualities, despite his horrible side. What he did to others is part of his tragedy.

I remember reading this year in a SI feature with Allen Iverson and he was talking about how he never could see himself in a Paul Pierce/Vince Carter/Tim Duncan role of being a good role player; and that if he wasn't going to one of the best two or three players on the court he wasn't going to play. I think Kobe had the same kind of attitude only he had the backing of an organization to let the horror show of a aging legend chucking up 30 shots a game manifest itself.
Yeah the more I learn of Ai after he retired the more I like him. He was ahead of his time and the dribble happy world of today would be even better than he was when he played.
 
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soxfan121

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EDIT: Horribly selfish of me to actually use the word rape when talking about a rapist. Please, continue talking about his good qualities.
 

DJnVa

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Despite that tweet, agent said it was unlikely he's back this season. I guess it would actually be harder to work him back in this season, assuming the team is playing well by then. Just get better.

I hope the team can take a breath now. I still give them a pass for last night (and again, how fucking stupid to give them a back to back like that, especially with game 2 against team that hadn't played). Hopefully they can catch their breath today, Stevens can work out some rotations, and start off better on Friday.
 

bankshot1

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My two scents?

Under a best case scenario it was going to take 20+ games for the new look Celts to figure out roles/rotations etc. Now, w/oGH its going to take a little longer as his minutes get distributed to Brown/Tatum/Rozeir etal Last night they looked a little lost in the 4th qtr. couldn't hit a shot, and did not get any home court hellp.from the refs.

My guess is they'll get better..
 

mt8thsw9th

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The 2001 Pats are a notable example.
Well, as I said, that is a huge example of the supposed good (but not so good) player in Bledsoe being replaced by someone a lot better. I don't think anyone in their right mind would say Hayward's value is vastly overrated to the point where Tatum or Brown could just step in today and make the team better.
 

BigSoxFan

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Despite that tweet, agent said it was unlikely he's back this season. I guess it would actually be harder to work him back in this season, assuming the team is playing well by then. Just get better.

I hope the team can take a breath now. I still give them a pass for last night (and again, how fucking stupid to give them a back to back like that, especially with game 2 against team that hadn't played). Hopefully they can catch their breath today, Stevens can work out some rotations, and start off better on Friday.
Yup. A return this season just doesn’t make any sense. An extra 5 months or whatever would do a world of good for someone who suffered a major injury like that. Losing a year of prime Hayward absolutely blows but it’ll be a bump in the road if he is able to come back at 90-95% of what he was combined with quality development from Brown/Tatum.

It also wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world for this team to add a mid-round pick in the 2018 draft. I still expect the Celtics to make the playoffs since the East is so bad but wouldn’t be heartbroken if they didn’t.
 

sezwho

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Not to play "injury whisperer" but I think Gordon focusing on a potential return this season could be useful for his rehab. Even if he doesn't make it, the near term goal of rejoining the team for a playoff run adds fuel. You can tell from Kobe's letter (curse his heartfelt and well crafted response) that staring down a long lonely rehab back from a crippling injury isn't a non-event, even for the stars. Maybe especially for the stars?

In any case, I was a real Green Kool-Aid drinker prior to the injury, giving them the slight edge beat Cleveland before losing to a healthy GSW team without much fuss. Even I don't think an early returning Hayward would take us there now

Focus on the work GH, come back this year if you can, but don't get too crazy on the deer antler spray as apparently it makes you say ridiculous things!
 

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We really don't know what Gordon's personal goal is in his recovery. He very well may be determined to return this season, at least as a motivating factor. But it really doesn't do him any favors to make that public. So his agent lowers external expectations, and if his rehab goes great, and it makes sense for him to come back this season, he does so. If not, expectations have been set so that no one is really any more disappointed than they are now, except maybe for Gordon.
 

RoDaddy

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It also wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world for this team to add a mid-round pick in the 2018 draft. I still expect the Celtics to make the playoffs since the East is so bad but wouldn’t be heartbroken if they didn’t.
All things considered, this didn't turn out to be the end of the world for the franchise that we first feared when we saw him lying on the floor with a broken ankle. He'll be back next year, the young guys will progress faster, and the GSW are a lock this year anyway barring injury. And I agree with BigSox - adding another quality pick to the draft would be nice. Especially since there are so many quality bigs coming out, we don't have a real center, and Horford is 31 years old.
 

bsj

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I want him back when he's ready and not a minute before. I believe that a healthy Hayward, plus the unanticipated accelerated development of Brown and (especially) Tatum this year, positions this team to be THE team to beat in the East starting next year and for seasons to come. Don't ruin it by rushing him back this year unless he is absolutely 100%.
 

HomeRunBaker

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You gotta do the math man. He hasn't been at the hospital since last night. He flew out of Cleveland at like 11 pm, probably landing around 1-1:30 am. I think there were pics of him getting to hospital at like 3 am.

They probably had consults all morning.
Catching up on this thread. The report I heard from someone who was on the Celtics team flight (was driving don't recall who) was that he flew back with the team, went directly to hospital arriving at 3am, with his first consult at 6:30am.
 

bakahump

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Stupid question, but why do they do surgery at like 3 in morning (like last night).

I would think that you would want the patient (as well) rested (as can be even if they were going to be under) and the Docs and Nursing staff awake and aware. I realize that some things simply cant wait (life threatening issues.) but when its a "we can do it when convenient over the next day or 2" like in this case why not surgery at 8am or 2pm ?
 

queenb

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Stupid question, but why do they do surgery at like 3 in morning (like last night).

I would think that you would want the patient (as well) rested (as can be even if they were going to be under) and the Docs and Nursing staff awake and aware. I realize that some things simply cant wait (life threatening issues.) but when its a "we can do it when convenient over the next day or 2" like in this case why not surgery at 8am or 2pm ?
This is obviously a question for nurses and doctors and I'm neither but thought it was interesting.

1. Could very well be in the middle of their shift, or when they actually are most awake and aware.

2. I think even hospitals slow down a bit at night because most patients try to sleep, so if this is at all a complicated surgery that requires maximum focus and patience to perform, maybe best to do it when the world is quiet, there's no rush, the mind is clear.
 

joe dokes

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This is obviously a question for nurses and doctors and I'm neither but thought it was interesting.

1. Could very well be in the middle of their shift, or when they actually are most awake and aware.

2. I think even hospitals slow down a bit at night because most patients try to sleep, so if this is at all a complicated surgery that requires maximum focus and patience to perform, maybe best to do it when the world is quiet, there's no rush, the mind is clear.
Or it may be a time when they can get the particular doctor or doctors all together at the same time on relatively short notice. As far as I know, the docs operating on Hayward aren't going to tell their patients already scheduled for surgery that they have to get in line behind the Celtic.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Stupid question, but why do they do surgery at like 3 in morning (like last night).

I would think that you would want the patient (as well) rested (as can be even if they were going to be under) and the Docs and Nursing staff awake and aware. I realize that some things simply cant wait (life threatening issues.) but when its a "we can do it when convenient over the next day or 2" like in this case why not surgery at 8am or 2pm ?
Hayward's surgery wasn't at 3 a.m. Woj tweeted it was successful at 1:00 a.m.; surgery undoubtedly started well before that.
 

lexrageorge

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Hayward's surgery wasn't at 3 a.m. Woj tweeted it was successful at 1:00 a.m.; surgery undoubtedly started well before that.
Further, with regards to the timeline:

The Woj tweet would happen after the surgery and the recovery, and after Hayward has had a chance to talk with his family and his care team in the post-op area. The surgery had probably been over at least a couple of hours if not longer by the time Woj got the official word.
 

Light-Tower-Power

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Encouraging comments from old friend Shavlik Randolph:

Interesting comments to me from Ex-NBA player/Celtics forward Shavlik Randolph, who had similar injury to Gordon Hayward. "It's about a 4-6 month recovery. The ligaments take 6-8 weeks and the tibia was about three months to heal in all the places it broke. Ironically, I had the same injury and as bad as it looks it does heal back to 100 percent and does so surprisingly fast. I think there's a chance he could be back this season if he really pushed it. The team will be cautious to bring him back too fast, but I think he could by the end of the season. Maybe not back to full 100 percent by then, but I wouldn't be shocked if he can and does play."

Jeff Goodman, ESPN Insider
 

reggiecleveland

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EDIT: Horribly selfish of me to actually use the word rape when talking about a rapist. Please, continue talking about his good qualities.
This is the ridiculous lack of nuance that is ruining many discussions. I am not comfortable referring to a person, even though he dared to play for a team I hope never wins another game, as deserving a vile term like rapist. I do not know what happened, and I won't even guess. I am not even comfortable calling Harvey Weinstein a rapist, since the evidence is all in the public forum, as overwhelming as it is, against him and Cosby. I have had fiorts hand experience seeing a good man I worked with years destroyed by an allegation that was false. The tag, the accusation is still used as a pronoun for him, when he has been exonerated. Yeah many accusers are ignored, bullied, victimised again, but some, even a tiny percentage are not telling the truth. Duke, Lacrosse. etc.

Jerry Seinefeld said he can look past what Cosby did and enjoy the comedy, Steven Colbert cannot. I can look at Kobe the basketball player, perhaps you cannot. It does not make you morally superior. I can look at how Bill Clinton uses carefully arranged facts in a political discussion, making them accessible to the average man, better than most politicians, without it meaning I think Paul Jones is a liar. I can understand why Iraqis resented an occupying army without supporting IEDs. Again the word is nuance. SO if you want to try and say my discussion of Kobe being great, on basketball board, relating to a message about a basketball player, advice he gave that was basketball related, included somehow an endorsement of rape, you are way off base and trying to put yourself on self righteous pedestal. Why didn't you call me out when I stuck to basketball and forgot rape, when talking about what a selfish prick Kobe was?
 

bakahump

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Further, with regards to the timeline:

The Woj tweet would happen after the surgery and the recovery, and after Hayward has had a chance to talk with his family and his care team in the post-op area. The surgery had probably been over at least a couple of hours if not longer by the time Woj got the official word.
Thanks Guys, Swore I heard some late night surgery but it does make way more sense that its just a delay in relaying success etc etc.
 

Reverend

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Why are you people talking about surgeons as though they are human beings?
 

soxfan121

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Why didn't you call me out when I stuck to basketball and forgot rape, when talking about what a selfish prick Kobe was?
Because I didn't see it.

This is the ridiculous lack of nuance that is ruining many discussions.
You wrote a post praising THE PERSON. And failed to include the NUANCE / detail that makes THE PERSON not worthy of the praise you gave him.

And then followed it up by invoking common "knowledge". Pointing out the NUANCE that this person is rapist has resulted in this screed, in which I'm the bad guy for pointing out that you heaped personal (not basketball, PERSONAL) praise on a rapist. OK.

I am not comfortable referring to a person, even though he dared to play for a team I hope never wins another game, as deserving a vile term like rapist.
You are, however, quite comfortable heaping personal praise on a person who is a rapist. Perhaps you should seek better examples?

I do not know what happened, and I won't even guess. I am not even comfortable calling Harvey Weinstein a rapist, since the evidence is all in the public forum, as overwhelming as it is, against him and Cosby. I have had fiorts hand experience seeing a good man I worked with years destroyed by an allegation that was false. The tag, the accusation is still used as a pronoun for him, when he has been exonerated. Yeah many accusers are ignored, bullied, victimised again, but some, even a tiny percentage are not telling the truth. Duke, Lacrosse. etc.
C'mon. You're a smart guy. You don't know what happened? Seriously?

As for your "not all victims" statement... yeah, sure, I suppose. But again, you chose to personally praise a person who only got to be a great basketball player because he PAID OFF THE VICTIM HE RAPED.

Your buddy might be worthy of personal praise, as he was exonerated. The basketball player you praised personally was not exonerated, so this is apples and oranges.

Jerry Seinefeld said he can look past what Cosby did and enjoy the comedy, Steven Colbert cannot. I can look at Kobe the basketball player, perhaps you cannot. It does not make you morally superior.
Again, you were personally praising a rapist.

I didn't post: "don't forget about the rape" in a "morally superior" fit of pique, I posted it because I read you praising a rapist without mentioning his rape.

That you've chosen to make this a morality contest is your problem. I'm quite comfortable with my moral compass on this one.

Again the word is nuance. SO if you want to try and say my discussion of Kobe being great, on basketball board, relating to a message about a basketball player, advice he gave that was basketball related, included somehow an endorsement of rape, you are way off base and trying to put yourself on self righteous pedestal.
I can see you care very much about who is superior and inferior. But you keep using that word and it doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.

See, I added nuance. I didn't say you were a morally reprehensible twat for praising a rapist. I simply noted you omitted a pertinent fact.

That you're all twisted up over having personally praised a racist isn't my problem, it's yours.

Perhaps any further discussion of this should move to PM, as it's pretty far off topic.
 

queenb

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Or it may be a time when they can get the particular doctor or doctors all together at the same time on relatively short notice. As far as I know, the docs operating on Hayward aren't going to tell their patients already scheduled for surgery that they have to get in line behind the Celtic.
thought this was a sports town, smh
 

radsoxfan

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I keep reading this stuff and then think about DRS's bit about ligaments:

Dislocating your ankle and not tearing any ligaments is like saying you were ejected from the car but no windows were broken. You can't dislocate your ankle without tearing some of the ligaments around your ankle, it's not possible.

Certainly some injuries are worse than others, and perhaps there was no additional ligament damage beyond what was expected, and no additional surgical repair was needed. Thats all good news for sure, but it's kinda silly to assume he didn't have any ligament damage at all.
 

Jimbodandy

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Dislocating your ankle and not tearing any ligaments is like saying you were ejected from the car but no windows were broken. You can't dislocate your ankle without tearing some of the ligaments around your ankle, it's not possible.

Certainly some injuries are worse than others, and perhaps there was no additional ligament damage beyond what was expected, and no additional surgical repair was needed. Thats all good news for sure, but it's kinda silly to assume he didn't have any ligament damage at all.
Seriously. Anyone claiming that ligaments are intact doesn't understand what ligaments do. I think that they're misspeaking or misheard.

If the break itself was limited in complexity and the major nerves and blood vessels were spared, that's good. And I feel ok about inferring the above based on the imprecise reports that we have gotten to date.
 

reggiecleveland

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Dislocating your ankle and not tearing any ligaments is like saying you were ejected from the car but no windows were broken. You can't dislocate your ankle without tearing some of the ligaments around your ankle, it's not possible.

Certainly some injuries are worse than others, and perhaps there was no additional ligament damage beyond what was expected, and no additional surgical repair was needed. Thats all good news for sure, but it's kinda silly to assume he didn't have any ligament damage at all.
I had a dislocation, not in the ball park of GH, but bad enough. I played a 7 more years, even reached my peak, but just taped it for every practice game, even workouts. I was dealing with trainers who described my ankle as "loose" and the doctor that told me I had possibly severed ligament was dismissed as anti-sports. Anyway in my 30s I was in pain a lot and I finally listened to an ortho he told me it was impossible to dislocate the ankle without wrecking the ligament. I had a reconstruction at age 40, and walked pain free. though my playing, running days are over.

May seem odd, but my experience makes me think Hayward, with the best care possible, will be back 100%.
 

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Anyone hoping for a March return in a year the Celts aren’t likely to contend, please remember the story of Grant Hill. If you are too young and only remember his post injury play you might want to look into how good he was before the injuries. When he signed with the Magic he was in a very similar situation to where we are right now: a team and an all-star with a broken ankle, both excited about a newly signed giant contract, wanting to rush a return for fans and teammates. The excitement of the team and player to begin the new chapter led to a push for the earliest possible return. He ended up playing in some late summer pickup games, preseason games and even started the first game of the season. This was despite Hill’s doctor recommending a December return to basketball date. The premature return to bball activities added months to his recovery and he received lots of criticism for the delay. So he pushed again to return faster than he should have and when he did return he hurt his knee playing while favoring the ankle. Ultimately he was never the same player again.

http://www.foxsports.com/nba/story/grant-hill-says-detroit-orlando-mismanaged-injuries-042711
 

Eddie Jurak

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I don't think there's any concern that the Celtics and Hayward are going to follow that path. The Celtics (and really any team in the current NBA context) are well are that a premature reutn that complicates and delays his recorvery is not the best way to maximize the return on their $128 million investment.
 

Cesar Crespo

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If he's back in March, it's because he's 100% healthy. I would love a March return, but only under those conditions and I'm sure the Celtics share my opinion.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Brad already slipped about when he expects Gordon back (the 5 month comment) and I'm not sure this wasn't an intentional response targeting his agents claim of likely being done for the season. If you listen to McRoberts explain his rehab following the 2006 dislocated ankle/broken tibia injury that he sustained this is the same timeline he suggested was possible. The dislocated ankle would heal first in around 6 weeks and the tibia would take about 3 months.

This volleyballing between agent and Celtics is interesting.
 

Ed Hillel

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Brad already slipped about when he expects Gordon back (the 5 month comment) and I'm not sure this wasn't an intentional response targeting his agents claim of likely being done for the season. If you listen to McRoberts explain his rehab following the 2006 dislocated ankle/broken tibia injury that he sustained this is the same timeline he suggested was possible. The dislocated ankle would heal first in around 6 weeks and the tibia would take about 3 months.

This volleyballing between agent and Celtics is interesting.
Brad clarified that yesterday:
WALTHAM -- Boston Celtics head coach Brad Stevens said he did not mean to suggest a timeline for Gordon Hayward when he referenced how the injured All-Star plans to approach the next five months.

"I was just speaking generally, more focused on how to keep him engaged and active," Stevens clarified after practice Saturday. "But there's no timeline. And like it's been said, we're not anticipating having him back this year. But I got a lot of questions about that."
https://www.google.com/amp/s/articles.masslive.com/celtics/index.ssf/2017/10/brad_stevens_clarifies_gordon.amp
 

DJnVa

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He clarified "officially" then still said he has questions. lol

Chances he hits a three pointer this season before Fultz?
 

Manzivino

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He clarified "officially" then still said he has questions. lol

Chances he hits a three pointer this season before Fultz?
Have to assume the "I got a lot of questions about that" was meant as everyone's been asking him about his 5-month comment, not that he has questions about the timeline.
 

PedroKsBambino

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The agent's interest is in being sure no one starts suggesting Hayward isn't 'tough' or isn't trying to get back, right? I'd imagine he and team share that interest, ultimately, though on 'day one' they may not look like it.
 

mcpickl

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The agent's interest is in being sure no one starts suggesting Hayward isn't 'tough' or isn't trying to get back, right? I'd imagine he and team share that interest, ultimately, though on 'day one' they may not look like it.
I don't think Brad backtracking has anything to do with Haywards' agent.

It most likely is to help the Celtics get a disabled player exception approved.

It would probably be tougher to get if the Celtics head coach is on record saying Hayward would be back before the end of the season, in which case the Celtics wouldn't qualify for the exception.
 

PedroKsBambino

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yes, I wasn't suggesting anything like that. I was just saying the Agent has an objective and that's why he is saying what he is, and in the end it likely isn't different than Celts objective. I think there's nothing here---we'll have to see how he heals to know anything.
 

HomeRunBaker

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The agent's interest is in being sure no one starts suggesting Hayward isn't 'tough' or isn't trying to get back, right? I'd imagine he and team share that interest, ultimately, though on 'day one' they may not look like it.
Yes, It's interesting to see both sides position themselves publicly. Bartelstein leads off with Gordon not likely to return this year followed by Brad's 5-month comment which came just after Josh McRoberts, who also suffered the same injury in 2006, also suggested that Hayward could return if he worked hard enough.

Nothing vicious is occurring (yet anyway) but the Celtics certainly have a greater incentive for Gordon to return this season if he is capable of doing so. Hence the 5-month comment which I have to believe had some Ainge smell to it in response to Bartelstein's public comment.

I don't really expect the NBA to grant us the exception as league approved doctors would have to determine that Hayward isn't likely to be able to return before mid-June. That sounds like a little bit of a stretch to me as far as a timetable goes from all the information we've heard up to this point.
 

reggiecleveland

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In honor of Gordon I blew out my calf.
Note, if you are 52 years old, feeling thirsty and not loose, don't volunteer to fill in at the 7am pickup game you are supervising.
 

HomeRunBaker

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In honor of Gordon I blew out my calf.
Note, if you are 52 years old, feeling thirsty and not loose, don't volunteer to fill in at the 7am pickup game you are supervising.
Sorry to hear this. People do not realize the pain and frustration this causes but without a functioning calf muscle you are pretty much immobilized. I caught mine just before it fully pulled on two separate occasions and even only two weeks of it was a living hell. Get well soon brotha.
 

DJnVa

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Celtics Notebook in the Herald mentions that Hayward will probably start coming into the Celtics facility in the next few days--get checked, start some rehab, etc. The team has had folks out to his house.
 

dhellers

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yes, I wasn't suggesting anything like that. I was just saying the Agent has an objective and that's why he is saying what he is, and in the end it likely isn't different than Celts objective. I think there's nothing here---we'll have to see how he heals to know anything.
I have to believe that the first words out of IT's mouth (when he visited hayward in the lockerroom on opening night) were "Don't ever forget this is a business... so don't jeoporadize your long term well being out of a sense of obligation to the team".

Which is fine with me. No way he is close to 100% if he comes back this season.