Hayward's Injury

[Sam Ray Not]

First off: fuck. I still feel awful about this, and I'm not even as big a Cs fan as you guys. Hoping the break is a "clean" as possible, and that whatever the timetable, he heals up 100% (end of season would be fab, but obviously they shouldn't try to push it).

As far as potential one-year seat-warmers with their $8M injury exception ... totally perverse timing, but has Mirotic been mentioned? Expiring $12M contract that I could see the Bulls being perfectly willing to move (esp. after the Portis incident), good rebounder and shooter, etc. Assuming his face heals up in a couple weeks and he isn't a horrible human being who deserved to be punched, seems like he could be a pretty good fit in Stevens-ball.

 

[Light-Tower-Power]

This is well written but sobering take from an injury blog written by by a certified athletic trainer. It compliments DRS' blog post well. Scariest part is that he thinks Paul George's injury was in a more favorable location and less damaging than Hayward's.

http://instreetclothes.com/2017/10/17/understanding-gordon-haywards-gruesome-ankle-injury/

 

[DJnVa]

Surgery today is good isn't it, since it means there wasn't swelling that could delay the surgery for another 2 weeks?

Well, I think the swelling would show up either way--so get it done today before it starts.

 

[H78]

Even if it’s medically possible he could make it back by the end of the year, I think the prudent thing is to IR him and let him recover fully. Don’t give the slightest temptation to rushing it to make it back. For what? Let him rehab without the pressure of a deadline. Jut try and be healthy by Christmas 2018, and let’s see what we have then.

Agreed.

Anyone that's ever severely sprained an ankle past the age of, like, 18, knows that ankle ligaments can take a really, really long time not only to heal, but to regain the range of motion necessary for athletic endeavors. It's not like when you're a kid and you sprain your ankle, chill for a couple weeks, and then you're back on the playground. The stiffness in the joint can last for months as an adult.

And Hayward's injury is much, much worse (clearly) than a sprained ankle, which would make you think the ligament damage is much worse as well. The correct thing to do is sit him for a year and let time and rehab take course.

 

[Hendoo]

There are a lot of poor anatomy and physiology takes everywhere, even in this thread.

Ankle ligament damage here is a 100% certainty and also the least important part of the discussion. If you have ever sprained your ankle badly, you have torn these ligaments.

Obviously by "clean", they mean vascular and nerve, not ligament. And that is certainly good news

When the report came that it was a "clean break" and "no ligament damage", I understood it as a message that it wasn't a career ending not that it wasn't a season ending injury. I took it as:

clean break- it was a simple break, not a compound fracture, not a multifragmentary fracture where it breaks into more than one piece and not an impacted fracture where it shatters/splinters above or below the main break. All those would be more career threatening. If it is a simple spiral fracture it would still be bad in terms of how long it takes to heal.

no ligament damage- You can't dislocate your ankle like that without ligament damage. This likely means there was not an avulsion fracture where a small piece of bone attached to a tendon or ligament broke away from the main bone. This is what they could probably see with a portable xray. No avulsion is good news because that is also where we start talking career ending injury.

 

[phenweigh]

I was out in the early evening and got home at half-time. FUCK, I said, I said FUCK. I was as excited about watching the Celtics this season since the Bird era, with apologies to Pierce and company.

Anyway, I was wondering how important time is between injury and surgery, because the Cleveland Clinic is a world class hospital.

 

[JCizzle]

Kyrie with a cryptic 3/23 reference in his get well message. Greenie speculated that it's in reference to a game against the blazers on that day.


And even fucking Kobe is making me like him more and more.

 

[allstonite]

It's the date of their birthday

 

[RedOctober3829]

Yes 3/23 is the game at Portland.

 

[Nator]

First off: fuck. I still feel awful about this, and I'm not even as big a Cs fan as you guys. Hoping the break is a "clean" as possible, and that whatever the timetable, he heals up 100% (end of season would be fab, but obviously they shouldn't try to push it).

As far as potential one-year seat-warmers with their $8M injury exception ... totally perverse timing, but has Mirotic been mentioned? Expiring $12M contract that I could see the Bulls being perfectly willing to move (esp. after the Portis incident), good rebounder and shooter, etc. Assuming his face heals up in a couple weeks and he isn't a horrible human being who deserved to be punched, seems like he could be a pretty good fit in Stevens-ball.

Perverse in the sense that he was the other NBA player suffering from broken bones yesterday?

 

[mt8thsw9th]

Anyway, I was wondering how important time is between injury and surgery, because the Cleveland Clinic is a world class hospital.

I think it is, and I had this post queued up but never hit Post Reply, because in reading up he was going straight to the team doc, not a random (but likely very good) physician in Cleveland. The question is: is someone there going to drop everything more quickly than the Celtics team doctor is going to? And isn't it a bit important that he's closer to his home when he finishes his surgery, rather than having to start recovery and fly back to Boston?

Spoiler

Blair Miller‏ @BlairMillerTV 8m8 minutes ago
Officials tell me Gordon Hayward is being flown via MedFlight to Boston. He will then be taken to NE Baptist Hosp in Boston. Our best to him

Is that right? Wouldn’t that be a horribly inefficient way of getting him to Boston? Cleveland Clinic doesn’t have a bed?

 

[Omar's Wacky Neighbor]

But if it's in Cleveland, won't he be unable to fly for at least several days post op? (see: Candido, Chris)

 

[Tony C]

Kyrie with a cryptic 3/23 reference in his get well message. Greenie speculated that it's in reference to a game against the blazers on that day.


And even fucking Kobe is making me like him more and more.

sheesh! I hate Kobe with the wrath of a 1000 Greek Gods, and even I have to admit that's a great message and doesn't even feel like it was written by a PR guy (edited by a PR guy, maybe).

Will wonders never cease....

 

[Marciano490]

sheesh! I hate Kobe with the wrath of a 1000 Greek Gods, and even I have to admit that's a great message and doesn't even feel like it was written by a PR guy (edited by a PR guy, maybe).

Will wonders never cease....

He misspelled "it's"; I believe it's him. Really a great message though and good insight into a champion's mind.

 

[Sam Ray Not]

Perverse in the sense that he was the other NBA player suffering from broken bones yesterday?

Yeah. Crazy how suddenly the Portis-Mirotic story was overshadowed.

Sounds like Mirotic may be out several weeks, but that might actually work out for the Cs in terms of pro-rating his $12M salary to fit their $8.4M exception. Apparently they have till March to use it. No idea what the Bulls are thinking about these days other than tanking, but I'd imagine what's left of Mirotic's contract could be had for very little in terms of talent.

 

[DJnVa]

Latest reports is that he is still being evaluated and hasn't undergone surgery yet.

 

[phenweigh]

I think it is, and I had this post queued up but never hit Post Reply, because in reading up he was going straight to the team doc, not a random (but likely very good) physician in Cleveland. The question is: is someone there going to drop everything more quickly than the Celtics team doctor is going to?

I get that knowing/trusting the surgeon is important, but I'm genuinely curious if that outweighs the time aspect, especially when the alternative is the Cleveland Clinic. And yes, I would think that the CC would have their top orthopedic surgeon available immediately.

And isn't it a bit important that he's closer to his home when he finishes his surgery, rather than having to start recovery and fly back to Boston?

I hadn't thought about that and it's a good point.

 

[Curt S Loew]

It's the date of their birthday

Yeah, they mentioned it at the press conference.

 

[HowBoutDemSox]

He misspelled "it's"; I believe it's him. Really a great message though and good insight into a champion's mind.

The ultimate champion is more concise.

 

[benhogan]

Yeah. Crazy how suddenly the Portis-Mirotic story was overshadowed.

Sounds like Mirotic may be out several weeks, but that might actually work out for the Cs in terms of pro-rating his $12M salary to fit their $8.4M exception. Apparently they have till March to use it. No idea what the Bulls are thinking about these days other than tanking, but I'd imagine what's left of Mirotic's contract could be had for very little in terms of talent.

This is interesting.

I'm not going to pretend to be a doctor and try to figure out Gordon's recovery % or time back. I want him to take his time and come back when ready. Vegas Sportsline took the Celtics from 53 win team to 48 wins. Time for the Celtics to take lemons and make lemonade. Let's focus on the positive steps Brad, Danny and the players can make going forward:
1. more high leverage time for Brown and Tatum
2. larger role for Marcus Morris
3. larger role for Marcus Smart
4. Danny uses the $8.4MM injury exception around mid-season (hearing it doesn't pro-rate) to attain a player from a seller, not many contenders will have that size cap space to add players.
5. Brad coaches these guys up to be a top 2 seed in the East, wins 50 games, and makes it to Eastern Conf Championships.
6. additional time/opportunity for Theis/Nader/Olejeye to develop at the NBA level

http://www.sportsline.com/insiders/25824690/nba-news-how-gordon-haywards-injury-affects-the-celtics/

 

[reggiecleveland]

And even fucking Kobe is making me like him more and more.

Most of what made Kobe great, are positive qualities of his personality. He was unable to mitigate his drive, single mindedness to give up, and that sadly was when he became the worst version of himself as a team mate and player. As much as I hate the Lakes I always admired Kobe, and his unwillingness to accept who he was post injury is one of the great sports tragedies of my lifetime. Following Kobe's mindset, and being in your 20s is a good way to get back to the player you were.

 

[luckiestman]

I havent been this bummed about an injury since Testaverde blew out his achilles to start the season in 1999.

 

[Ale Xander]

But if it's in Cleveland, won't he be unable to fly for at least several days post op? (see: Candido, Chris)

He was flown to NE Baptist, I thought I heard

 

[RedOctober3829]

He was flown to NE Baptist, I thought I heard

Yes he was flown via mediflight to NE Baptist. He didn't fly back with the team. At least that is what ASB said last night.

 

[RedOctober3829]

As of now, the Celtics are still awaiting further news on Gordon Hayward's condition and surgery plan.

 

[Light-Tower-Power]

As of now, the Celtics are still awaiting further news on Gordon Hayward's condition and surgery plan.

That seems a little strange if he's been at the hospital since last night. I'm sure they've already done an MRI. Hopefully this doesn't mean it's more complicated or damaged than previously thought.

Brad Stevens is supposed to address the media at 4:30, so maybe he'll provide an update then.

 

[radsoxfan]

Late to the thread, but DRS obviously hit the main points already.

As has been stated, the "no ligament damage" idea is 100% impossible. He has multiple ligament tears, but hopefully they will scar/heal well enough to get back to close to 100% over the next 4-6 months.

The "clean break" talk but means nothing was smashed to pieces, but I'm sure both his tibia and fibula are broken. It doesn't imply anything about nerve or vascular injuries, though fortunately those would be unlikely.

The hope is no significant cartilage damage or anything that's going to lead to early arthritis. Hopefully they can get get an anatomic surgical reduction, the bones will heal, the ligaments will scar/heal, and by the start of 2018-2019 season he is close to normal. A return at the end of this season isn't out of the question depending on the specifics of his particular injury, but I'm not banking on it.

 

[Red Averages]

5% odds of a return this year, 15%, 25%?

 

[radsoxfan]

5% odds of a return this year, 15%, 25%?

Honestly it's such a guess without seeing his imaging, I can't give a decent one, but I'd say less than 50% chance. Even the team docs probably don't know for sure at this point.

 

[mcpickl]

Yeah. Crazy how suddenly the Portis-Mirotic story was overshadowed.

Sounds like Mirotic may be out several weeks, but that might actually work out for the Cs in terms of pro-rating his $12M salary to fit their $8.4M exception. Apparently they have till March to use it. No idea what the Bulls are thinking about these days other than tanking, but I'd imagine what's left of Mirotic's contract could be had for very little in terms of talent.

Disabled player exception doesn't pro-rate.

Have to be able to fit the entire salary in, even if you're only paying the pro-rated part of the players' salary. Same as if it were a waiver claim.

 

[RedOctober3829]

League source: Gordon Hayward deciding between surgery tonight in Boston or in Indiana by doctor who performed previous surgery at Butler

 

[jerry casale]

Maybe Bill Simmons's "Ewing Theory" will play out??

 

[Big John]

Disabled player exception doesn't pro-rate.

Have to be able to fit the entire salary in, even if you're only paying the pro-rated part of the players' salary. Same as if it were a waiver claim.

Yes, and unlike other exceptions you can only use it on one player. You can't split it between two $4M players. And if you use the DPE to trade for a player, he has to be in the last year of his contract, and a free agent can only be signed for one year using the DPE.

So it's not much of an asset.

 

[mt8thsw9th]

Maybe Bill Simmons's "Ewing Theory" will play out??

When has this ever actually played out? The only 82 game season in which Ewing missed any significant time, the Knicks went from a 57 win team to a 43 win team. 1999 playoffs, when (I believe) the "Ewing Theory" played out was just the Knicks winning a total of three games against the Pacers, and then getting smoked in the finals against a team that created huge mismatches in the frontcourt without Ewing (the Knicks could win vs. Dale Davis and Rik Smits, Duncan and Robinson is another story altogether).

The only time I ever see this actually playing out is when the star isn't actually that good, and replacing them with someone "worse" actually leads to better results. That was never the case with Ewing, and with Hayward, it would mean the people who took his minutes made a HUGE leap. There's still very little chance the Celtics are better without him.

 

[soxfan121]

Most of what made Kobe great, are positive qualities of his personality. He was unable to mitigate his drive, single mindedness to give up, and that sadly was when he became the worst version of himself as a team mate and player. As much as I hate the Lakes I always admired Kobe, and his unwillingness to accept who he was post injury is one of the great sports tragedies of my lifetime. Following Kobe's mindset, and being in your 20s is a good way to get back to the player you were.

Don't forget the rape. I feel like you've forgotten about the rape.

 

[Kliq]

Most of what made Kobe great, are positive qualities of his personality. He was unable to mitigate his drive, single mindedness to give up, and that sadly was when he became the worst version of himself as a team mate and player. As much as I hate the Lakes I always admired Kobe, and his unwillingness to accept who he was post injury is one of the great sports tragedies of my lifetime. Following Kobe's mindset, and being in your 20s is a good way to get back to the player you were.

I remember reading this year in a SI feature with Allen Iverson and he was talking about how he never could see himself in a Paul Pierce/Vince Carter/Tim Duncan role of being a good role player; and that if he wasn't going to one of the best two or three players on the court he wasn't going to play. I think Kobe had the same kind of attitude only he had the backing of an organization to let the horror show of a aging legend chucking up 30 shots a game manifest itself.

 

[Kliq]

When has this ever actually played out? The only 82 game season in which Ewing missed any significant time, the Knicks went from a 57 win team to a 43 win team. 1999 playoffs, when (I believe) the "Ewing Theory" played out was just the Knicks winning a total of three games against the Pacers, and then getting smoked in the finals against a team that created huge mismatches in the frontcourt without Ewing (the Knicks could win vs. Dale Davis and Rik Smits, Duncan and Robinson is another story altogether).

The only time I ever see this actually playing out is when the star isn't actually that good, and replacing them with someone "worse" actually leads to better results. That was never the case with Ewing, and with Hayward, it would mean the people who took his minutes made a HUGE leap. There's still very little chance the Celtics are better without him.

The Ewing theory predates the Knicks in 99; that was just the incident that immortalized it. It originally came from a reader who noticed the Knicks seemed to play better when their believed best player was on the sideline.

The 2001 Pats are a notable example.

 

[PaulinMyrBch]

League source: Gordon Hayward deciding between surgery tonight in Boston or in Indiana by doctor who performed previous surgery at Butler

If both guys are top notch surgeons, I'd want to have the surgery at the location where I'll be rehabbing. Post op, I want to be talking to the guy that was in there, not a guy who is just reading the films. It's possible he'd return to Indiana for follow up, but my guess is he'll be in Boston for most of that.

 

[DJnVa]

That seems a little strange if he's been at the hospital since last night. I'm sure they've already done an MRI. Hopefully this doesn't mean it's more complicated or damaged than previously thought. .

You gotta do the math man. He hasn't been at the hospital since last night. He flew out of Cleveland at like 11 pm, probably landing around 1-1:30 am. I think there were pics of him getting to hospital at like 3 am.

They probably had consults all morning.

 

[LondonSox]

No one did anything intentionally. I haven't gone back and watched it for obvious reasons but in real time, I thought it was a foul. A guy cannot be bumped or undercut like that in mid-air and it not be a foul in this league. Too dangerous of a situation.

He just fell, there's no real bump or undercut. His leg just landed oddly. I'm sure you want to blame someone but this is a shit happens case.

Right now? Or long term?
.

Right now. I'm more saying it's high skills, great athleticism, stunning plays but limited feel. Very makes his mind up and does it instead of adjusts. Stevens is likely the best coach to help and it's a great system for him so we shall see.

Gorman on 98.5 standing by his no ligament damage, back by March news. People are going to be upset when the real news comes out later today.

Then he (as many have said) is a fool. I can only assume it's about no knee ligaments? That is good news I guess, if true.

 

[jerry casale]

When has this ever actually played out? The only 82 game season in which Ewing missed any significant time, the Knicks went from a 57 win team to a 43 win team. 1999 playoffs, when (I believe) the "Ewing Theory" played out was just the Knicks winning a total of three games against the Pacers, and then getting smoked in the finals against a team that created huge mismatches in the frontcourt without Ewing (the Knicks could win vs. Dale Davis and Rik Smits, Duncan and Robinson is another story altogether).

The only time I ever see this actually playing out is when the star isn't actually that good, and replacing them with someone "worse" actually leads to better results. That was never the case with Ewing, and with Hayward, it would mean the people who took his minutes made a HUGE leap. There's still very little chance the Celtics are better without him.

Geeez, sometimes it's just no fun posting here.

 

[RedOctober3829]

#NEBHInjuryReport Brad Stevens confirms Hayward's original diagnosis of a dislocation and fracture of left tibia. He will require surgery.


Stevens on Hayward: "We're expecting a full recovery." Said he doesn't know yet if it's season ending and won't speculate with a timeline.

 

[RedOctober3829]

Surgery tonight for Gordon.

 

[Light-Tower-Power]

Guessing we'll know a rough timetable once they're in there and can truly assess the damage.

 

[JohnnyTheBone]

Get well soon, Gordo.

 

[PaulinMyrBch]

I’m not an ortho, but I guess that idiot could be sticking by his guns saying there is no ligament damage if it means there isn’t a torn ankle ligament. But the dislocation obviously stretched and loosened connective tissue to the extent that when the bone is healed it won’t be stable. So no ligament damage? Maybe in a technical sense, but if he’s implying the ligaments are normal, he’s wrong. The recovery period is dependent on the ligaments returning to normal, not the bones.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

First off: fuck. I still feel awful about this, and I'm not even as big a Cs fan as you guys. Hoping the break is a "clean" as possible, and that whatever the timetable, he heals up 100% (end of season would be fab, but obviously they shouldn't try to push it).

As far as potential one-year seat-warmers with their $8M injury exception ... totally perverse timing, but has Mirotic been mentioned? Expiring $12M contract that I could see the Bulls being perfectly willing to move (esp. after the Portis incident), good rebounder and shooter, etc. Assuming his face heals up in a couple weeks and he isn't a horrible human being who deserved to be punched, seems like he could be a pretty good fit in Stevens-ball.

I know nothing about how trades/salary cap, etc. work in the NBA, but what about Jabari Parker (once he comes back from injury)? He wasn't able to come to an extension with the Bucks, so he becomes a restricted free agent at year end, and it doesn't sound like they are going to give him close to the max contract he's going to be looking for (although they could match what he does get). He's set to make less than $8M this season.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

I know nothing about how trades/salary cap, etc. work in the NBA, but what about Jabari Parker (once he comes back from injury)? He wasn't able to come to an extension with the Bucks, so he becomes a restricted free agent at year end, and it doesn't sound like they are going to give him close to the max contract he's going to be looking for (although they could match what he does get). He's set to make less than $8M this season.

That's not how the exception works and we don't have the pieces to acquire Jabari Parker. I'm guessing they are going to match whatever offer he gets depending on how he recovers. He also won't be back until February or March.

 

[Koufax]

When has this ever actually played out? The only 82 game season in which Ewing missed any significant time, the Knicks went from a 57 win team to a 43 win team. 1999 playoffs, when (I believe) the "Ewing Theory" played out was just the Knicks winning a total of three games against the Pacers, and then getting smoked in the finals against a team that created huge mismatches in the frontcourt without Ewing (the Knicks could win vs. Dale Davis and Rik Smits, Duncan and Robinson is another story altogether).

The only time I ever see this actually playing out is when the star isn't actually that good, and replacing them with someone "worse" actually leads to better results. That was never the case with Ewing, and with Hayward, it would mean the people who took his minutes made a HUGE leap. There's still very little chance the Celtics are better without him.

'86 Celtics (and other nearby years) would often pick up their game when Bird was out. I remember thinking that they were actually better without him. A preposterous thought, of course, but sometimes when he was out (whether for a game or for less) the team actually played better.

 

[Cellar-Door]

I know nothing about how trades/salary cap, etc. work in the NBA, but what about Jabari Parker (once he comes back from injury)? He wasn't able to come to an extension with the Bucks, so he becomes a restricted free agent at year end, and it doesn't sound like they are going to give him close to the max contract he's going to be looking for (although they could match what he does get). He's set to make less than $8M this season.

1. He doesn't qualify, he has a QO next year, it's treated like an option
2. He'd be incredibly expensive in terms of talent traded out.
3. MIL has no incentive to trade Parker, if he plays well they can afford to match anything up to the max, if he doesn't they can probably get him cheaper.