Happy Pedro Day!
- Thread starter redsahx
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Wow! Look at the murderers row the Sox were trotting out. I have done an effective job of removing Buford and Husky from my memory bank..:but you sir...you brought them back! Stunned they scored 3 runs that game with that offense. But yeah good times all around. Pedro was the best I've ever seen pitch and I saw Ryan at Fenway quite a bit growing up.
I'm also pretty sure that was the only multi hit game in the career of Wilton Veras
I'm also pretty sure that was the only multi hit game in the career of Wilton Veras
Is it just me or is it pretty damn remarkable that that team managed to win 94 games?
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1999.shtml
Behind Pedro we had
Bret Saberhagen
Mark Portugal
Pat Rapp!
Brian Rose
Wake (demoted to pen) and Lowe had 15 saves a piece.
Darren Lewis was somewhat equivalent to JBJ but the rest of the lineup had decent power distribution.
Nomar had a ridiculous year. And O'Leary had his career year.
Still, 94 wins. Bananas.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1999.shtml
Behind Pedro we had
Bret Saberhagen
Mark Portugal
Pat Rapp!
Brian Rose
Wake (demoted to pen) and Lowe had 15 saves a piece.
Darren Lewis was somewhat equivalent to JBJ but the rest of the lineup had decent power distribution.
Nomar had a ridiculous year. And O'Leary had his career year.
Still, 94 wins. Bananas.
k-factory said:
Doing a player by player comparison to the 2014 Sox lineup is upsetting....Tyrone Biggums said:
k-factory said:
For the power of the era, the Red Sox offense was pretty bad. But that team was no where near as bad as the one they would field the next season. The '00 Sox are arguably one of the worst offensive squads in modern team history, right there with this year's edition and maybe only surpassed by the Brunanski/Greenwell Sox of the early 90s.
Yeah I remembered Huskey, but had completely forgotten about Buford. In fairness their lineup looked alot more intimidating on the days John Valentin and Brian Daubach were in there!
To think that Sports Illustrated actually picked the '00 Red Sox to win the World Series in their season preview. A lot of us bought into the idea that somehow Carl Everett was the missing piece. That goes to show the power of the 99 team, which might be my favorite Sox team thinking back on it. I seriously believed they had a shot at breaking the curse with that group. Ramon Martinez fresh off rotator cuff surgery was their second best starter in the playoffs. Comparing that roster to what the Indians and Yankees had is comical, and really speaks to how valuable Pedro and Nomar were at that time.
Enjoy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4osTw6HVLAk
I will say Pedro got some quite favorable calls for the Chili (45 seconds in), Girardi (58 secs), and Jeter K's (1:04), but man was his stuff filthy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4osTw6HVLAk
I will say Pedro got some quite favorable calls for the Chili (45 seconds in), Girardi (58 secs), and Jeter K's (1:04), but man was his stuff filthy
moondog80 said:
It was a Red Sox v. Yankees game completed in only 2 hours and 53 minutes - that alone qualifies it....
Jeter really is the last Yankee remnant of that time, and there really isn't anyone meaningful in that franchise who came along from 2005 to today to bridge the eras either (Cano and Joba are gone; Texeira and Sabathia are washed up). If Arod comes back next year that might bring some nostalgia, but I'm indifferent towards that roster now.Ramon AC said:
Yes I saw it and yes it was insanely good. But when you talk about "greatest ever"' it doesn't take much to get axed from the conversation. If you give up a HR, you have not had a game as good as Kerry Wood's 20 K one-hit, no walk shutout (the one hit was an IF single; he did hit a batter, as did Pedro).Rasputin said:
Geez, moon, you're being a pedantic jerkface. Wood's game was incredible, but he was facing a MUCH easier lineup.
moondog80 said:
Howell (3K, 549 OPS); Clark (3K, 337 OPS); Ausmus (2K, 565 OPS); Reynolds (1K, 313 OPS).
moondog80 said:
Joe Torre had a front row seat for these two games in the previous 16 months:
Cone: 7/18/99, 9 IP, 0 H, 0 BB, 10 K, 88 Pitches
Wells: 5/17/99, 9 IP, 0 H, 0 BB, 11 K, 120 Pitches
He said Pedro's was better. The guy had Yankee Stadium on their feet by the ninth.
The Yankees hit only 8 fair balls in that entire game.
And of Pedro's final 52 pitches, they managed to hit exactly zero fair balls.
And of Pedro's final 52 pitches, they managed to hit exactly zero fair balls.
joyofsox said:
Understand that we're splitting hairs at this point, but I'll continue with being devil's advocate...Wood had 7 fair balls. One of which was a bunt, and only two that left the IF. Neither of those flyouts are described as deep in the b-ref game page.
Pedro had three fly outs described as deep, in addition to the HR.
It was still an awesome game, probably better than most perfect games. But in terms of outcomes, Wood's was the more dominating performance IMO.
If you want to say Pedro's was more impressive due to the opposition, I won't argue, but the 1998 Astros weren't the 2014 Red Sox;only 26 fewer runs scored than the 1999 Yankees.
FWIW, Bill James listed his 10 greatest games pitched of the last 60 years (you have to scroll down a bit) and strangely, Pedro makes the list twice, but neither are the Yankee game. (Clemens' 20 K against Detroit is there, I assume the Mariners game is dinged because of the HR).
http://www.billjamesonline.com/the_greatest_of_games/
http://www.billjamesonline.com/the_greatest_of_games/
The NL is always easier with the pitcher batting, but that Astros team won 102 games and led the NL in runs scored by a lot. It certainly wasn't a much easier lineup.Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
Super Nomario said:
Howell (3K, 549 OPS); Clark (3K, 337 OPS); Ausmus (2K, 565 OPS); Reynolds (1K, 313 OPS).
kieckeredinthehead said:
We heard you the first time you listed a players' May 6 OPS as an indicator of lineup strength.
The Yankees lineup was indeed better. The mean OPS (for the season, weighted by PA in those games) was .833 for NY, .785 for Houston. Both Darryl Strawberry and Jack Howell had a small number of PA that year, so I took a three year OPS average instead. The pitcher has a big influence on this of course; remove Shane Reynolds' two PA and the Astros are up to .814.
Someone described Strawberry coming to the plate in the 9th was like a condemned man walking the last mile.They simply knew that they couldn't catch up with his stuff.
M
MentalDisabldLst
Guest
It is right and good that Moondog is fighting the trend of describing everything contemporary as the "best ___ ever". People have a weird sort of fetish with that term. It doesn't cheapen Pedro's legend to have merely thrown "one of the greatest games ever pitched" rather than "the greatest". I doubt Pedro looks at Kerry Wood's career and thinks "damn, if only I'd been more like him..."
That game meant far more to us as Sox fans than it did to 28 fanbases around baseball, chiefly because of the participants. That's OK. We're Sox fans, we don't have to apologize for it. But Moondog's not committing some sin by pointing out that, objectively, there's pretty good competition for the title. We ought to save such superlatives for when they're deserved, or else they're cheapened.
A few years ago when SoSH held vote threads for the Greatest Of All Time players, and we selected the rotation, our #1 starter was Walter Johnson and our #2 was Pedro. I thought that was just the right amount of homerism.
However, if we're looking to celebrate Pedro, head back to that Bill James article above and look at Item #4, his list of pitchers since 1950 who had the best collections of the best-pitched games of all time. Giving credit only for the top-250 games ever pitched (#250 = 1 point, #249 = 2 points, etc), his top list included:
8. Roy Halladay, 8 games, 651 points.
7. Curt Schilling, 6 games, 707 points.
6. Juan Marichal, 4 games, 822 points.
5. Roger Clemens, 6 games, 826 points. Clemens says that he never threw a no-hitter at any level of competition—majors, minors, college, high school or little league.
4. Mike Mussina, 6 games, 968 points. A surprise, Mussina being this high on the list, but he was a great pitcher.
3. Randy Johnson, 12 games, 1101 points.
2. Nolan Ryan, 7 games, 1239 points.
1. Pedro Martinez, 12 games, 1965 points.
SoSH members can find a few of those 12 performances on the Pedro Server, if the baseball coming to you on NESN these days is insufficiently pleasing to the eyes.
That game meant far more to us as Sox fans than it did to 28 fanbases around baseball, chiefly because of the participants. That's OK. We're Sox fans, we don't have to apologize for it. But Moondog's not committing some sin by pointing out that, objectively, there's pretty good competition for the title. We ought to save such superlatives for when they're deserved, or else they're cheapened.
A few years ago when SoSH held vote threads for the Greatest Of All Time players, and we selected the rotation, our #1 starter was Walter Johnson and our #2 was Pedro. I thought that was just the right amount of homerism.
However, if we're looking to celebrate Pedro, head back to that Bill James article above and look at Item #4, his list of pitchers since 1950 who had the best collections of the best-pitched games of all time. Giving credit only for the top-250 games ever pitched (#250 = 1 point, #249 = 2 points, etc), his top list included:
8. Roy Halladay, 8 games, 651 points.
7. Curt Schilling, 6 games, 707 points.
6. Juan Marichal, 4 games, 822 points.
5. Roger Clemens, 6 games, 826 points. Clemens says that he never threw a no-hitter at any level of competition—majors, minors, college, high school or little league.
4. Mike Mussina, 6 games, 968 points. A surprise, Mussina being this high on the list, but he was a great pitcher.
3. Randy Johnson, 12 games, 1101 points.
2. Nolan Ryan, 7 games, 1239 points.
1. Pedro Martinez, 12 games, 1965 points.
SoSH members can find a few of those 12 performances on the Pedro Server, if the baseball coming to you on NESN these days is insufficiently pleasing to the eyes.
M
MentalDisabldLst
Guest
As the person who started that storm by calling it the "greatest game ever pitched", I actually had meant to come to Moondog's defense earlier because I should have made it clearer that I did not intend for that line to be taken too seriously as a definitive statement. It was slight hyperbole in celebration of the occasion. It was more than reasonable for him to question it the way he did, and the Bill James link was awesome. The back and forth it generated was mostly pleasant and interesting though so I just left things as is.
It's all good with me redsahx. I actually first wrote "I suspect he's being a bit hyperbolic" in my original reply, probably should have left it in there. But then some people pushed back at my suggestion and off it went.redsahx said:
moondog80 said:
I am quite certain that if you want to predict how a lineup will perform on a given day, OPS over the previous 30 days is a much better measure than the previous 3 years.
Varitek caught/called that game.
With the 4 no-hitters, he called a LOT of great games (with admittedly great pitchers). But I wonder if people are going to look back at his career and become even more impressed in the future.
With the 4 no-hitters, he called a LOT of great games (with admittedly great pitchers). But I wonder if people are going to look back at his career and become even more impressed in the future.
Super Nomario said:
With good reason. 30 days of ABs is too small a sample to be stable. See e.g. http://www.fangraphs.com/library/principles/sample-size/
You know what else is a really small sample? One game. If you want, though, I can dig up a link to the Wikipedia article on autocorrelation.tomdeplonty said:
kieckeredinthehead said:
I apologize for stepping on your toes. I should have just asked (honestly, not contentiously) - how do you know this? It sounds counterintuitive.
You know, in some ways I do too. It certainly added a lot more spice to the games. On the other hand, there was a point there where I found Sox/MFY games almost unwatchable.They were certainly intense but had had ceased to be fun.bosockboy said:
I don't, but I am just as certain as folks saying this was/wasn't the best game ever pitched, and I was hoping somebody would dig up good evidence for my statement :/tomdeplonty said:
This is true, but you have to also wonder if rivalry fatigue exists because these two teams play each other too much with the current scheduling? That level of passion and excitement over 19+ games is exhausting... and it became harder and harder to get "amped up" for those series.rlsb said:
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