jsinger121 said:
Not the way it's currently constructed. They haven't overruled the writers and put in a player since Bill Mazeroski in 2001.
Hall of Fame balloting
- Thread starter JimRiceHOFer
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Not the way it's currently constructed. They haven't overruled the writers and put in a player since Bill Mazeroski in 2001.
Folks who didn't vote for Biggio:
https://twitter.com/MC790/status/420999863640539138/photo/1
A lot of Boston writers: CHB, Edes, Massarotti, Michael Silverman.
https://twitter.com/MC790/status/420999863640539138/photo/1
A lot of Boston writers: CHB, Edes, Massarotti, Michael Silverman.
So Michael Silverman thought Biggio was a first ballot Hall of Famer last year, but didn't vote for him this year. Wow. I don't even...wow.
I would imagine Biggio would have made it in were it not for the 10 player limit per ballot. He should have been in last year, and with the guys coming onto the ballot next year, he may get jobbed again unless they up the number of guys each writer can vote for.
M
MentalDisabldLst
Guest
Mooch said:
He did it for all the right reasons, in addition to self-promotion. I give him a pass.
I can buy that with the addition of the new guys on the ballot. Don't agree with it but can understand his thinking.SemperFidelisSox said:
SemperFidelisSox said:
I dont read him enough to know if he's a douchebag, but I leave open the slight possibility that he left him off to keep someone else on who might have been dropped completely. Unlike the Chass and Gurnick approaches, its defensible.
Yeah, per Keith Law's Twitter at least three guys (including Silverman and Edes) would have voted for Biggio if not for the 10-player limit.FortyFive said:
I know of one ballot that went: Morris, Nomo, Raines, Trammell. The non-Maddux reasoning was the same sanctimonious BS as Gurnick's. Anyone who played the bulk of their career during the steroid era will never get his vote. As the biggest stars of the game, they had more power than anyone to rid the game of steroids and they sat on their hands. He views them as complicit in the fraud. Crazy. Nearly just as crazy in my eyes -- the Nomo vote.
MentalDisabldLst said:
I know, but he should've been in LAST year.
It doesn't help that cunts like Jeff Pearlman are tweeting "I will admit, it's somewhat strange that I hold it against Biggio for believing he used PED, but not against Raines for using coke. Hmm..."
Thanks a pantload for sharing evidence of Biggio's PED usage with us, Jeff. Oh right, you don't have any. Get fucked.
Sean McAdam also didn't vote for Biggio, and didn't even explain why:
http://www.csnne.com/blog/red-sox-talk/look-inside-mcadams-hall-fame-ballot
http://www.csnne.com/blog/red-sox-talk/look-inside-mcadams-hall-fame-ballot
I'm kind of embarrassed how glad I was to hear Morris missed out. But oh well. Gotta buy a ticket there, warrior.
I feel a little bit bad for Morris in that I don't think he's done anything to make himself a flashpoint in the debate between old and new ways of looking at baseball.
He wouldn't have my vote if I had one, but it's unfortunate that so much of what he's remembered for at this point is an epic debate over his hall credentials.
I feel a little bit bad for Morris in that I don't think he's done anything to make himself a flashpoint in the debate between old and new ways of looking at baseball.
He wouldn't have my vote if I had one, but it's unfortunate that so much of what he's remembered for at this point is an epic debate over his hall credentials.
Gee, I wonder who else had the power to draw attention to the issue, maybe with a steady drum beat of stories, perhaps with some real journalism, interviewing guys at gyms etc and finding out how easy it is to get the juice, maybe talking to older players and finding out when the use of it really started? Maybe somebody like Gurnick? Oh, wait, that would mean doing real work and having real integrity. Being a sanctimonious hypocrite is so much easier. So that's the route he went.PT Sox Fan said:
Dehere said:
Not true at all. He's talked a lot about "pitching to the score" and a whole bunch of other nonsense.
Heeeey, This is truth!!! Great reply
Apologies if this has been linked but very interesting Grantland article about whether the writers "should have known"
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/10261642/mlb-hall-fame-voting-steroid-era
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/10261642/mlb-hall-fame-voting-steroid-era
Joe D Reid said:
I look forward to continuing my longstanding policy of not giving a flying fuck about anything Murray Chass writes or says.
moondog80 said:
Catcher and Second Base are the two most criminally under-represented positions in the Hall of Fame. Each requires skill sets most slugging outfielders and first base types (who dominate the offensive side of the hall in lopsided fashion) sorely lack. Biggio was an all star at BOTH positions.
Fishercat said:
Heyman is basically Shaughnessy with darker hair, paler skin, and a New York accent.
His oWAR is 75.0, 46th alltime. So he's clearly above the line. It depends on how seriously you take his dWAR and pre-batted-ball-data fielding numbers; BB-REF has him -100 fielding runs for his career, but he did win 4 Gold Gloves.moondog80 said:
Mussina with 2813 K's. How many would he have had if he had faced the pitcher's spot two to three times a game.CaptainLaddie said:
At this point if I had a HOF ballot I'd just write Ken Caminiti's name in ten times, because fuck you that man basically died for the game.
I get this. I would vote for Biggio. But WAR accounts for position and defense and he has a WAR that doesn't stand out amongst HOFers. It's also below both Bobby Grich and Lou Whitaker. I think Curt Schilling's vote total, for one, is far more of an injustice.mabrowndog said:
I wonder if these guys start to get strategic to break up the logjam. I think Clemens and Bonds are obviously better than Biggio, but Biggio is a Hall of Famer and has a much better chance of getting elected, and they need to push these guys over 75 to clear up the ballot.DrewDawg said:
The steroid stuff is screwing stuff up. On the one hand, you've got idiots like that dude yesterday who won't vote for anybody who played in the era. And then the writers who are voting for the 'roid guys are seeing their ballots clogged. This most obviously screwed Biggio, but it also boned guys like Piazza, Bagwell, and Raines, who would have all probably gotten close to 75% if they weren't getting squeezed by the moralists on one side and the 10-player-limit on the other.
It's telling that Heyman uses "website" as a pejorative. (Did he also misspell 'sanctimonious'?)
(as an aside...heyman is a dick. I once wrote him about his claim that Kaz Matsui "couldn't handle" New York, as evidenced by his post-Met success in 2006. I pointed out that it was almost entirely Coors-related; he responded with a bunch of "you had to see him play; he was scared, blah, blah, blah." Then in 2007 (a year and a half later, after a season of 87OPS+), Matsui hit a GS against Philly in the playoffs. The asshole emailed me to remind me how wrong I was. )
(as an aside...heyman is a dick. I once wrote him about his claim that Kaz Matsui "couldn't handle" New York, as evidenced by his post-Met success in 2006. I pointed out that it was almost entirely Coors-related; he responded with a bunch of "you had to see him play; he was scared, blah, blah, blah." Then in 2007 (a year and a half later, after a season of 87OPS+), Matsui hit a GS against Philly in the playoffs. The asshole emailed me to remind me how wrong I was. )
Bagwell and Piazza baffle me. Neither were ever mentioned in the Mitchell Report and are not in based "looked like a user".
drtooth said:
They suffer because they played in an era with absurd offensive numbers by people associated with steroids, so by extension, people assume their absurd numbers were from steroid use. In a vacuum, they clearly belong in the HOF, but when taken in the context of Bonds, Sosa, Palmeiro, McGwire, Sheffield, etc... and then consider that in many individual seasons they weren't even as good as guys that aren't considered for the HOF like Mo Vaughn, Albert Belle, etc...They don't stand in relief upon recollection.
I'm not saying that's fair or not (although I do think the context does matter), but it's an easy way to convince oneself that they might not belong at all.
I think they DO belong, btw.
So wait. Biggio received 427 votes out of 569 cast.
I'm not a mathematician, but that comes out to 75.04%. Why does the HoF's website state that 429 votes are necessary for induction?
EDIT: Ah, yes. 569 ballots cast, 571 ballots sent out.
SECOND EDIT: Wait a fucking minute - Rule 4C for induction in the HoF is...
Any candidate receiving votes on seventy-five percent (75%) of the ballots cast shall be elected to membership in the National Baseball Hall of Fame.
By that rationale, Biggio's 427 votes out of 569 cast makes him a hall of famer. So what gives?
I'm not a mathematician, but that comes out to 75.04%. Why does the HoF's website state that 429 votes are necessary for induction?
EDIT: Ah, yes. 569 ballots cast, 571 ballots sent out.
SECOND EDIT: Wait a fucking minute - Rule 4C for induction in the HoF is...
Any candidate receiving votes on seventy-five percent (75%) of the ballots cast shall be elected to membership in the National Baseball Hall of Fame.
By that rationale, Biggio's 427 votes out of 569 cast makes him a hall of famer. So what gives?
drtooth said:
Part of me wonders if they're suffering a bit from how they were viewed as minor leaguers. Bagwell was traded because he didn't show the power potential that Lou Gorman wanted in a corner infield prospect (ignoring that his low power numbers came playing in a minor league park that surpressed HR totals significantly). Then he fills out and hits 449 HR in his career. Piazza was a late late round pick which was considered by some as just a favor to his godfather, Tommy Lasorda, then he goes nuts from day one in the big leagues.
It's almost like voters are putting stock in poor/inaccurate scouting evaluations and explaining it away by putting the PED suspicions on the players instead.
Bagwell had a .436 SLG in the minors, with 6 HR and 48 2B in 859 PA. You can see why he would be questioned...
New Britain was a brutal home run park, though. The whole team hit just 31 HR in 1990, and the pitching staff just 44. Only 10 players in the entire Eastern League hit double-digit HR. Though you may be right that this is factoring into voters' thinking. They can't be expected to know things that took me 15 seconds to look up on BB-REF (sadly, only half-sarcastic).tims4wins said: