Hall of Fame balloting

Mooch

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CaptainLaddie said:
So it was Dan Le Batard who gave his vote to Deadspin.
 
More promotion for his ESPN Radio show.   Probably a smart move.
 

ivanvamp

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gtg807y said:
 
That was great. I would love to read a book by Maddux, everything I've heard him say about how he pitched is fascinating. He's the Sherlock Holmes of the mound. 
 
I'd also love to read a book about what goes through Manny's head, but for different reasons.
 
Tolkien vs. Dr. Seuss.  Something like that.
 

mauidano

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mabrowndog said:
 
Jeff Wilson ‏@JeffWilson_FWST 12s
Mike Maddux on brother Greg: "He had 355 wins. If you count all the wiffle-ball games we played, he'd probably have around 356."
 
Laughed at this.  Brothers always dogging each other.  Awesome.
 

joe dokes

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Mooch said:
 
More promotion for his ESPN Radio show.   Probably a smart move.
 
And the Deadspin ballot was welll within acceptable results.
To begin with, you voted for Greg Maddux, Frank Thomas, Tom Glavine, Mike Piazza, Craig Biggio, Edgar Martínez, Jeff Bagwell, Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds, and Curt Schilling. Well done, readers! Tim Raines, Mark McGwire, and Don Mattingly all came close, but couldn't quite crack the ballot; you can check the full results below
 
 

FortyFive

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I would imagine Biggio would have made it in were it not for the 10 player limit per ballot.  He should have been in last year, and with the guys coming onto the ballot next year, he may get jobbed again unless they up the number of guys each writer can vote for.
 
M

MentalDisabldLst

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Mooch said:
More promotion for his ESPN Radio show.   Probably a smart move.
 
He did it for all the right reasons, in addition to self-promotion.  I give him a pass.
 

Merkle's Boner

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SemperFidelisSox said:
So Michael Silverman thought Biggio was a first ballot Hall of Famer last year, but didn't vote for him this year. Wow. I don't even...wow.
I can buy that with the addition of the new guys on the ballot.  Don't agree with it but can understand his thinking.
 

4 6 3 DP

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SemperFidelisSox said:
So Michael Silverman thought Biggio was a first ballot Hall of Famer last year, but didn't vote for him this year. Wow. I don't even...wow.
 
He said it was a Rule of 10 issue. Don't agree Biggion wasn't a top 10 guy there but he explained it...
 

joe dokes

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SemperFidelisSox said:
So Michael Silverman thought Biggio was a first ballot Hall of Famer last year, but didn't vote for him this year. Wow. I don't even...wow.
 
I dont read him enough to know if he's a douchebag, but I leave open the slight possibility that he left him off to keep someone else on who might have been dropped completely. Unlike the Chass and Gurnick approaches, its defensible.
 

Super Nomario

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FortyFive said:
I would imagine Biggio would have made it in were it not for the 10 player limit per ballot.  He should have been in last year, and with the guys coming onto the ballot next year, he may get jobbed again unless they up the number of guys each writer can vote for.
Yeah, per Keith Law's Twitter at least three guys (including Silverman and Edes) would have voted for Biggio if not for the 10-player limit.
 

PT Sox Fan

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I know of one ballot that went: Morris, Nomo, Raines, Trammell.  The non-Maddux reasoning was the same sanctimonious BS as Gurnick's. Anyone who played the bulk of their career during the steroid era will never get his vote. As the biggest stars of the game, they had more power than anyone to rid the game of steroids and they sat on their hands. He views them as complicit in the fraud.  Crazy. Nearly just as crazy in my eyes -- the Nomo vote.
 

joe dokes

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PT Sox Fan said:
I know of one ballot that went: Morris, Nomo, Raines, Trammell.  The non-Maddux reasoning was the same sanctimonious BS as Gurnick's. Anyone who played the bulk of their career during the steroid era will never get his vote. As the biggest stars of the game, they had more power than anyone to rid the game of steroids and they sat on their hands. He views them as complicit in the fraud.  Crazy. Nearly just as crazy in my eyes -- the Nomo vote.
 
 
 Nomo played from 1995-2005.  Isn't that sort of the heart of "The Steroids Era"?
 

gtg807y

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PT Sox Fan said:
I know of one ballot that went: Morris, Nomo, Raines, Trammell.  The non-Maddux reasoning was the same sanctimonious BS as Gurnick's. Anyone who played the bulk of their career during the steroid era will never get his vote. As the biggest stars of the game, they had more power than anyone to rid the game of steroids and they sat on their hands. He views them as complicit in the fraud.  Crazy. Nearly just as crazy in my eyes -- the Nomo vote.
 
So if you only played in the majors during the "steroid era," you're fine?
 

Bozo Texino

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MentalDisabldLst said:
 
Biggio's getting in, dude.  It's going to happen.  I'm not sure if there's been a player in the last 20 years who's reached 70% and not eventually gotten in.  This isn't a Blyleven or Rice situation where his time is nearly up.
 
I know, but he should've been in LAST year.

It doesn't help that cunts like Jeff Pearlman are tweeting "I will admit, it's somewhat strange that I hold it against Biggio for believing he used PED, but not against Raines for using coke. Hmm..."
 
Thanks a pantload for sharing evidence of Biggio's PED usage with us, Jeff.  Oh right, you don't have any.  Get fucked.
 

moondog80

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Craig Biggio had a WAR of 64.9, which is below the mean for a HOFer.  He only finished top 10 in WAR 3 times (2nd, 5th, and 10th).  Saying he's not a HOFer is not an outrage.
 

Dehere

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I'm kind of embarrassed how glad I was to hear Morris missed out. But oh well. Gotta buy a ticket there, warrior.


I feel a little bit bad for Morris in that I don't think he's done anything to make himself a flashpoint in the debate between old and new ways of looking at baseball.

He wouldn't have my vote if I had one, but it's unfortunate that so much of what he's remembered for at this point is an epic debate over his hall credentials.
 

Rough Carrigan

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PT Sox Fan said:
I know of one ballot that went: Morris, Nomo, Raines, Trammell.  The non-Maddux reasoning was the same sanctimonious BS as Gurnick's. Anyone who played the bulk of their career during the steroid era will never get his vote. As the biggest stars of the game, they had more power than anyone to rid the game of steroids and they sat on their hands. He views them as complicit in the fraud.  Crazy. Nearly just as crazy in my eyes -- the Nomo vote.
Gee, I wonder who else had the power to draw attention to the issue, maybe with a steady drum beat of stories, perhaps with some real journalism, interviewing guys at gyms etc and finding out how easy it is to get the juice, maybe talking to older players and finding out when the use of it really started?  Maybe somebody like Gurnick?  Oh, wait, that would mean doing real work and having real integrity.  Being a sanctimonious hypocrite is so much easier.  So that's the route he went.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Dehere said:
I feel a little bit bad for Morris in that I don't think he's done anything to make himself a flashpoint in the debate between old and new ways of looking at baseball.

He wouldn't have my vote if I had one, but it's unfortunate that so much of what he's remembered for at this point is an epic debate over his hall credentials.
 
Not true at all. He's talked a lot about "pitching to the score" and a whole bunch of other nonsense.
 

67WasBest

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Rough Carrigan said:
Gee, I wonder who else had the power to draw attention to the issue, maybe with a steady drum beat of stories, perhaps with some real journalism, interviewing guys at gyms etc and finding out how easy it is to get the juice, maybe talking to older players and finding out when the use of it really started?  Maybe somebody like Gurnick?  Oh, wait, that would mean doing real work and having real integrity.  Being a sanctimonious hypocrite is so much easier.  So that's the route he went.
:fonz:  Heeeey, This is truth!!!  Great reply
 

joe dokes

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Rough Carrigan said:
Gee, I wonder who else had the power to draw attention to the issue, maybe with a steady drum beat of stories, perhaps with some real journalism, interviewing guys at gyms etc and finding out how easy it is to get the juice, maybe talking to older players and finding out when the use of it really started?  Maybe somebody like Gurnick?  Oh, wait, that would mean doing real work and having real integrity.  Being a sanctimonious hypocrite is so much easier.  So that's the route he went.
 
I'm sure Cafardo will tackle the issue Sunday with his usual laser-like focus and precision.
 

Fishercat

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Jon Heyman put this on Twitter about Le Betard
 
 
 
Shame on the santimonious attention seeker who turned his vote over to a website. #sad
 
after putting this up on Gurnick
 
 
 
ken gurnick has earned right to vote after decades as baseball writer. disagreeing is fine, but he doesnt deserve abuse.
 
lol
 

mabrowndog

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Joe D Reid said:
I look forward to Chass's reaction to Piazza getting more votes than Morris.
 
I look forward to continuing my longstanding policy of not giving a flying fuck about anything Murray Chass writes or says.
 
moondog80 said:
Craig Biggio had a WAR of 64.9, which is below the mean for a HOFer.  He only finished top 10 in WAR 3 times (2nd, 5th, and 10th).  Saying he's not a HOFer is not an outrage.
 
Catcher and Second Base are the two most criminally under-represented positions in the Hall of Fame. Each requires skill sets most slugging outfielders and first base types (who dominate the offensive side of the hall in lopsided fashion) sorely lack. Biggio was an all star at BOTH positions.
 

mabrowndog

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Fishercat said:
Jon Heyman put this on Twitter about Le Betard
 
 
after putting this up on Gurnick
 
 
lol
 
Heyman is basically Shaughnessy with darker hair, paler skin, and a New York accent.
 

Super Nomario

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moondog80 said:
Craig Biggio had a WAR of 64.9, which is below the mean for a HOFer.  He only finished top 10 in WAR 3 times (2nd, 5th, and 10th).  Saying he's not a HOFer is not an outrage.
His oWAR is 75.0, 46th alltime. So he's clearly above the line. It depends on how seriously you take his dWAR and pre-batted-ball-data fielding numbers; BB-REF has him -100 fielding runs for his career, but he did win 4 Gold Gloves.
 

gtg807y

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At this point if I had a HOF ballot I'd just write Ken Caminiti's name in ten times, because fuck you that man basically died for the game.
 

moondog80

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mabrowndog said:
 
 
 
 
Catcher and Second Base are the two most criminally under-represented positions in the Hall of Fame. Each requires skill sets most slugging outfielders and first base types (who dominate the offensive side of the hall in lopsided fashion) sorely lack. Biggio was an all star at BOTH positions.
 I get this.  I would vote for Biggio.  But WAR accounts for position and defense and he has a WAR that doesn't stand out amongst HOFers.  It's also below both Bobby Grich and Lou Whitaker.   I think Curt Schilling's vote total, for one, is far more of an injustice.
 

NickEsasky

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So if it wasn't the Deadspin ballot, who the hell voted for Jacque Jones? 
 

Super Nomario

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DrewDawg said:
 
Wonder how they'll vote on Pedroia.
 
Silverman said he had a full ballot as the reasoning for no Biggio this year.
I wonder if these guys start to get strategic to break up the logjam. I think Clemens and Bonds are obviously better than Biggio, but Biggio is a Hall of Famer and has a much better chance of getting elected, and they need to push these guys over 75 to clear up the ballot.
 
The steroid stuff is screwing stuff up. On the one hand, you've got idiots like that dude yesterday who won't vote for anybody who played in the era. And then the writers who are voting for the 'roid guys are seeing their ballots clogged. This most obviously screwed Biggio, but it also boned guys like Piazza, Bagwell, and Raines, who would have all probably gotten close to 75% if they weren't getting squeezed by the moralists on one side and the 10-player-limit on the other.
 

joe dokes

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It's telling that Heyman uses "website" as a pejorative.  (Did he also misspell 'sanctimonious'?)
 
(as an aside...heyman is a dick.  I once wrote him about his claim that Kaz Matsui "couldn't handle" New York, as evidenced by his post-Met success in 2006. I pointed out that it was almost entirely Coors-related; he responded with a bunch of "you had to see him play; he was scared, blah, blah, blah."  Then in 2007 (a year and a half later, after a season of 87OPS+), Matsui hit a GS against Philly in the playoffs. The asshole emailed me to remind me how wrong I was. )
 
Shame on the santimonious attention seeker who turned his vote over to a website. #sad
 
 
 
 
 

drtooth

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Bagwell and Piazza baffle me.  Neither were ever mentioned in the Mitchell Report and are not in based "looked like a user".
 

Leather

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drtooth said:
Bagwell and Piazza baffle me.  Neither were ever mentioned in the Mitchell Report and are not in based "looked like a user".
 
They suffer because they played in an era with absurd offensive numbers by people associated with steroids, so by extension, people assume their absurd numbers were from steroid use.  In a vacuum, they clearly belong in the HOF, but when taken in the context of Bonds, Sosa, Palmeiro, McGwire, Sheffield, etc... and then consider that in many individual seasons they weren't even as good as guys that aren't considered for the HOF like Mo Vaughn, Albert Belle, etc...They don't stand in relief upon recollection.
 
I'm not saying that's fair or not (although I do think the context does matter), but it's an easy way to convince oneself that they might not belong at all.
 
I think they DO belong, btw.
 

moondog80

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Fishercat said:
Jon Heyman put this on Twitter about Le Betard
 
 
after putting this up on Gurnick
 
 
lol
 I don't like Gurnick's logic any more than you do, but  for better or for worse, there's an enourmous difference between that and selling your vote.
 

Bozo Texino

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So wait.  Biggio received 427 votes out of 569 cast.
 
I'm not a mathematician, but that comes out to 75.04%.  Why does the HoF's website state that 429 votes are necessary for induction?
 
EDIT: Ah, yes.  569 ballots cast, 571 ballots sent out.
 
SECOND EDIT: Wait a fucking minute - Rule 4C for induction in the HoF is...
 
Any candidate receiving votes on seventy-five percent (75%) of the ballots cast shall be elected to membership in the National Baseball Hall of Fame.
 
By that rationale, Biggio's 427 votes out of 569 cast makes him a hall of famer.  So what gives?
 

nattysez

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moondog80 said:
 I don't like Gurnick's logic any more than you do, but  for better or for worse, there's an enourmous difference between that and selling your vote.
 
LeBatard didn't sell his vote.  He picked his own ridiculous way to fill out his ballot.
 

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drtooth said:
Bagwell and Piazza baffle me.  Neither were ever mentioned in the Mitchell Report and are not in based "looked like a user".
 
Part of me wonders if they're suffering a bit from how they were viewed as minor leaguers.  Bagwell was traded because he didn't show the power potential that Lou Gorman wanted in a corner infield prospect (ignoring that his low power numbers came playing in a minor league park that surpressed HR totals significantly).  Then he fills out and hits 449 HR in his career.  Piazza was a late late round pick which was considered by some as just a favor to his godfather, Tommy Lasorda, then he goes nuts from day one in the big leagues.
 
It's almost like voters are putting stock in poor/inaccurate scouting evaluations and explaining it away by putting the PED suspicions on the players instead.
 

tims4wins

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Bagwell had a .436 SLG in the minors, with 6 HR and 48 2B in 859 PA. You can see why he would be questioned...
 

BigMike

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Smiling Joe Hesketh said:
2 people cast votes for Eric Gagne. They should be beaten with reeds.
 
I wonder if either of them left Bonds, Clemens, Sosa etc off their ballots?  
 

Super Nomario

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tims4wins said:
Bagwell had a .436 SLG in the minors, with 6 HR and 48 2B in 859 PA. You can see why he would be questioned...
New Britain was a brutal home run park, though. The whole team hit just 31 HR in 1990, and the pitching staff just 44. Only 10 players in the entire Eastern League hit double-digit HR. Though you may be right that this is factoring into voters' thinking. They can't be expected to know things that took me 15 seconds to look up on BB-REF (sadly, only half-sarcastic).