Very interesting that Raines, Bagwell, Schilling and Edgar all saw huge jumps in voting while Bonds and Clemens saw much more modest increases.
Hall of Fame Ballot for 2016 Enshrinement
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Peter Abraham is leading the charge on making all ballots public and I agree with him.
I would love to know the three who didn't vote for Griffey and the reasons why.
I would love to know the three who didn't vote for Griffey and the reasons why.
Pete Abraham @PeteAbe 6m6 minutes ago
Has the Twitter Righteous Indignation Committee ferreted out the three people who passed on Griffey?
The only way I can see the non-vote for Griffey being justified is if the voter thought "he's going to get in, let's use my vote for someone else".
Some also voted for Bonds and not Clemens.
Jim Edmonds joins Bobby Grich, Lou Whittaker and Kenny Lofton on the one-and-done team
Because there's been an increase in attention to the voting process -- with the purge of some voters, and the call for making all ballots public. Hell, Willie Mays isn't even in the Top 10 vote getters of all time.
2017 ballot
Carryover (15, with 2015 vote percentage)
Jeff Bagwell 71.6%
Tim Raines 69.8% (last year on ballot)
Trevor Hoffman 67.3%
Curt Schilling 52.3%
Roger Clemens 45.2%
Barry Bonds 44.3%
Edgar Martinez 43.4%
Mike Mussina 43.0%
Lee Smith 34.1% (last year on ballot)
Fred McGriff 20.9%
Jeff Kent 16.6%
Larry Walker 15.5%
Gary Sheffield 11.6%
Billy Wagner 10.5%
Sammy Sosa 7.0%
Newly added (12, not a complete list)
Ivan Rodriguez
Manny Ramirez
Vladimir Guerrero
Javier Vazquez
Mike Cameron
J.D. Drew
Jorge Posada
Magglio Ordonez
Edgar Renteria
Derrek Lee
Tim Wakefield
Jason Varitek
(2018 highlights: Chipper Jones, Jim Thome, Omar Vizquel)
Carryover (15, with 2015 vote percentage)
Jeff Bagwell 71.6%
Tim Raines 69.8% (last year on ballot)
Trevor Hoffman 67.3%
Curt Schilling 52.3%
Roger Clemens 45.2%
Barry Bonds 44.3%
Edgar Martinez 43.4%
Mike Mussina 43.0%
Lee Smith 34.1% (last year on ballot)
Fred McGriff 20.9%
Jeff Kent 16.6%
Larry Walker 15.5%
Gary Sheffield 11.6%
Billy Wagner 10.5%
Sammy Sosa 7.0%
Newly added (12, not a complete list)
Ivan Rodriguez
Manny Ramirez
Vladimir Guerrero
Javier Vazquez
Mike Cameron
J.D. Drew
Jorge Posada
Magglio Ordonez
Edgar Renteria
Derrek Lee
Tim Wakefield
Jason Varitek
(2018 highlights: Chipper Jones, Jim Thome, Omar Vizquel)
espn: With his election to this year's Hall of Fame class, Ken Griffey Jr. is the first No. 1 overall draft pick in MLB history in the Baseball Hall of Fame.
meanwhile, tim raines with a series of very classy tweets, thanking people for their support
meanwhile, tim raines with a series of very classy tweets, thanking people for their support
I can imagine someone convincing themselves that Bonds was a HOF'er before he took steroids, while Clemens needed the late career push to put him over the top.
Yes, he thanked Jonah Keri specifically. I suspect Keri might print that tweet out and frame it.
Classiest move was thanking the people of Montreal in French.
He's questioning my math, not my premise. 199 total votes for Clemens and 195 total votes for Bonds means at least 4 people voted for Clemens but not Bonds, rather than precisely 4 people.
Weird that it took so long, seems like the #1 picks have definitely gotten better with time. Teams didn't know what the hell they were doing for he first 20 years. Chipper will be the next, A-Rod would get in if not for roids, and then we wait and see what happens with Harper-Price-Strausburg-Cole-Correa.
Very classy indeed. One has to think he is inducted next year .. He's almost there and the "last year on the ballot" boost should get him over the top. Mind you that didn't seem to help my man Alan Trammell.
I never really "got" the Raines candidacy argument, so if any of his fans would like to channel their righteous indignation into argument format, I'd be interested to read it.
Bagwell, though... yeah.
Bagwell, though... yeah.
There are writers/voters using the "so and so is falling off the ballot, so I'll use my vote there instead of someone who's already a shoo in"
I thought that's what the veteran's committee was supposed to solve, but they're still voting like this is the last stand for some players.
I thought that's what the veteran's committee was supposed to solve, but they're still voting like this is the last stand for some players.
Second greatest lead off hitter of all-time, cursed by playing in the same era as the greatest and in a media market that didn't get enough attention. OPS+ of 139 - the same as David Ortiz - and OBP of .385. All HOF numbers, and it's not even borderline.
FYI...joe Posnanski doing a FB chat now thru Facebook...go to his page to watch. Pretty cool views...Schilling and Mussina need to be in. Edgar too, but he won't until veterans committee puts him in. Without steroids, McGuire is borderline, but he would vote for him.
Here are some arguments for Raines.
http://www.nj.com/yankees/index.ssf/2016/01/why_ex-yankee_tim_raines_deserves_hall_of_fame_nod.html
http://raines30.com/Tim_Raines_Sidebar.pdf
http://www.nj.com/yankees/index.ssf/2016/01/why_ex-yankee_tim_raines_deserves_hall_of_fame_nod.html
http://raines30.com/Tim_Raines_Sidebar.pdf
I'd go Bagwell, Bonds, Clemens, Guerrero, Martinez, Mussina, Raines, Ramirez, Schilling, and either Sheff or Walker
The fact that Schilling is as low as he is at this point is pretty ridiculous as well. People can chalk it up to him being the outspoken "blowhard", but not even Shaughnessy holds that against him when it comes to his ballot, and CHB clashed with him as much as anyone. (BTW I still haven't forgiven Schill for blocking me on Twitter). His case should be even more obvious than Raines, and I'm a huge Raines guy.
If you are privileged enough to have a HOF ballot, is it really asking too much to do some critical thinking? (Annual rant over)
If you are privileged enough to have a HOF ballot, is it really asking too much to do some critical thinking? (Annual rant over)
"The Museum staff works with each inductee by suggesting an appropriate logo option, or no logo at all," Hall of Fame president Jeff Idelson said. "For those whose most compelling contributions clearly took place with one team, a logo makes sense. For those whose careers were built significantly among multiple teams, not having a team logo is equally acceptable. Regardless of the selection, a Hall of Famer belongs to every team for which he played or managed, as well as every fan who followed his career."
I just hope the 3 people that didn't vote for Griffey voted for 10 other people instead, because I could see that being a justifiable reason for leaving him off. If some asshole voted for 4 people and Griffey wasn't on the list, they should be banned from everything to do with baseball.
Edit: Costas made the same exact rant on the MLBN HoF show. I don't know whether to be proud or horrified.
Edit: Costas made the same exact rant on the MLBN HoF show. I don't know whether to be proud or horrified.
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Piazza feels like a Dodger to me. More games with NY (972 to 726, the margin surprised me) but more WAR in LA (31.9 to 24.5). His best 3 years, and 4 of his best 5, were with LA. All the Mets did was pay a ton of cash for the good-to-very-good portion of his career.
Raines reasoning in 5 words: He was really fucking good.
I can *maybe* (although not really) understand if you don't think he's good enough, but to not even get why others think he is strikes me as really really fucking weird.
EDIT: Wait, you thought Ted Ginn was a rich man's Edelman, so yeah, never mind.
Jim Bowden @JimBowden_ESPN 29m29 minutes ago
Jeff Idleson,President of the National Baseball Hall of Fame left open the possibility of Ken Griffey Jr. hat being on backwards on plaque
Jeff Idleson,President of the National Baseball Hall of Fame left open the possibility of Ken Griffey Jr. hat being on backwards on plaque
That's awesome and I hope it happens, just to see so many "purists" heads' explode.
Most advocacy I've read for him revolved around steals (a very small fraction of anyone's value given the 71% threshold), and some sort of intangible value ascribed to being a "leadoff hitter" (as opposed to, you know, his value as a position player regardless of where his manager had him in the lineup). Being a great leadoff hitter seems like being a great bunter, in terms of its value as a superlative. Was the guy a truly great hitter, in general? Certainly well-above-average, no doubt. But if we're going to start putting people in the HOF for leading an increasingly narrowly-defined sub-segment of the MLB population, that would seem a very slippery slope indeed, when you consider, say, LOOGYs or closers or utility infielders.
...during his 1983-1989 peak. Over his own 7-year peak, David Ortiz averaged a 160 OPS+ and a .406 OBP. And even with one of the more astonishing runs of postseason glory since the days of the pre-draft Yankees, Ortiz is nevertheless considered a borderline case by non-Sox fans. Over a 7-year stretch, here's a few other OPS+ numbers:
Edgar, 1995-2001, 164 OPS+
Gary Sheffield, 1995-2001, 161 OPS+
Fred McGriff, 1988-1994, 155 OPS+
Carlos Delgado, 1999-2005, 153 OPS+
Larry Walker, 1997-2003, 152 OPS+
Gary Sheffield, 1999-2005, 151 OPS+
Brian Giles, 1999-2005, 151 OPS+
Jim Edmonds, 1999-2005, 150 OPS+
Larry Walker, 1993-1999, 148 OPS+
Don Mattingly, 1983-1989, 144 OPS+ (same years as Raines)
Bernie Williams, 1996-2002, 144 OPS+
Dale Murphy, 1982-1988, 142 OPS+
John Olerud, 1992-1998, 140 OPS+
Dave Parker, 1975-1981, 140 OPS+
(Tim Raines, 1983-1989, 139 OPS+)
Juan Gonzalez, 1995-2001, 138 OPS+
Jeff Kent, 1998-2004, 136 OPS+ (as a 2B)
Nomar, 1997-2003, 135 OPS+
...leaving aside all those with strong suspicions of PEDs, of course. And the HOF candidacy of many of the above crashed and burned, or languishes still.
And if the best that NJ.com's writer can say about Raines' WAR is that in a cherry-picked 7-year span, he was 6th in all of baseball, that strikes me as pretty weak by comparison to what's able to be said of most hall-of-famers (which, of course, is no insult). I've just never seen him as having a superlative peak (e.g. Pedro) or superlative career productivity (e.g. Tony Gwynn).
I didn't say I hadn't followed him, or was unaware of his career. If you'd been capable of fully reading my post despite your vision being clouded with rage as you typed, you would've seen me say that I just didn't get his candidacy, as in, not being a fan of his, the case didn't resonate with me. Had someone else asked for a full-throated defense of, say, Schilling, I might be inclined to get up on that wall; but Raines just isn't my guy. Clearly he has his supporters here, so I figured one or two would want to make their own case in public fashion.
But thanks for bringing the level of dialogue down to that of Yahoo forums. Over a HOF debate, no less.
The 139 OPS+ may have been a peak number, but just to be clear, the .385 OBP is a career number.
Raines is not a slam-dunk candidate by any stretch. A lot depends on how you rate his defense; he never won a Gold Glove, but remember that in his era there were not separate GGs for each outfield position. Through Raines' entire playing career, a left fielder only won a GG once, Rickey Henderson in 1981. As I recall, his defensive reputation was excellent.
By fWAR, he is tied with Manny Ramirez for 10th all-time among guys who played primarily left field. Some of the Hall of Fame LFs he ranks ahead of are Goose Goslin, Zack Wheat, Billy Williams, and Willie Stargell. (By bWAR, he ranks even higher, at #8, above Fred Clarke and Jesse Burkett.)
He was tremendously good at getting on base and running the bases, and he was a very good defensive player, and he played for a long time. He was the best National League left fielder of the 1980s, and it wasn't especially close. I think in Bill James' famous schema, he ranks somewhere between a Definition C and a Definition B Hall of Famer. Call him a B-.
He certainly had a much better career than Jim Rice. I don't want to lean on that argument because I don't really think Rice belongs in the Hall. But... FWIW.
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Compare Tim Raines' career to Tony Gwynn's and then make an argument why one should have walked in on the first ballot while the other still is waiting. If you do better than "had a great smile" vs "had cocaine vials in his back pocket, so he slid head first", then we can start making a case to convince you. As stated he's not a slam dunk, but to suggest he doesn't have a case is ludicrously ignorant.
Absolutely. This year it's only 3 voters, but it's many more voters almost every year. There's no reason, for example, that Ricky Henderson or Greg Maddux shouldn't have received unanimous votes. Every voter should have the fear of public shame as an disincentive to play games. If they feel strongly about their reasons for leaving someone off, then people should be able to ask them what those reasons are.
Anthony McCarron @AnthonyMcCarron 5h5 hours ago
HOF Stats II: The average ballot in the 2016 election contained 7.95 names with 41.6 percent of the voters using all 10 slots.
So, if the acceptable "reasoning" for not including Griffey was to give someone else who needed it a vote, that narrows the field to 183 voters who voted for all 10 slots.
Obviously, leaving off Griffey and not filling all 10 slots makes no sense
HOF Stats II: The average ballot in the 2016 election contained 7.95 names with 41.6 percent of the voters using all 10 slots.
So, if the acceptable "reasoning" for not including Griffey was to give someone else who needed it a vote, that narrows the field to 183 voters who voted for all 10 slots.
Obviously, leaving off Griffey and not filling all 10 slots makes no sense
I don't get the voters refusal to vote for either Raines or Bagwell. Neither is really a borderline candidate, and 5 minutes of research would show how good each one really was.
Trammell really should have been in as well; recency bias at play.
As for Schilling, I still say reasonable people can disagree on his Hall worthiness. Same with Edgar Martinez and, in a few years, David Ortiz. Part of the problem for Schilling this cycle was a crowded ballot: 5 truly Hall-worthy candidates (Griffey, Piazza, Raines, Bagwell, and Trammell), two normally slam dunk candidates stuck outside because of the PED issue in Bonds and Clemens. So Schilling basically gets stuck in that group of arguable candidacies in voters minds: Edgar Martinez, Mussina, Jeff Kent, Trevor Hoffman (!), and even Sheffield/McGriff to some extent. Had at least one of Raines, Bagwell, Bonds or Clemens made it in this year, then Schilling's chances in 2017 would have definitely benefited.
Trammell really should have been in as well; recency bias at play.
As for Schilling, I still say reasonable people can disagree on his Hall worthiness. Same with Edgar Martinez and, in a few years, David Ortiz. Part of the problem for Schilling this cycle was a crowded ballot: 5 truly Hall-worthy candidates (Griffey, Piazza, Raines, Bagwell, and Trammell), two normally slam dunk candidates stuck outside because of the PED issue in Bonds and Clemens. So Schilling basically gets stuck in that group of arguable candidacies in voters minds: Edgar Martinez, Mussina, Jeff Kent, Trevor Hoffman (!), and even Sheffield/McGriff to some extent. Had at least one of Raines, Bagwell, Bonds or Clemens made it in this year, then Schilling's chances in 2017 would have definitely benefited.
Joe Posnanski wrote that one of the people who left Seaver off the ballot was in a hospital bed when he filled it out, and simply made a mistake. I wouldn't discount that possibility, stuff's gonna happen with almost 450 ballots.
Isn't the system of having baseball writers in charge of voting outdated? At some point, they are going to lose the privilege and a new voting system will take its place.
Regarding Griffey, part of me thinks the hoopla about him not being unanimous is a bit overblown. Of course I think he's a HOFer, but he's 57th in career WAR, behind Adrian Beltre, for whom there will be no pitchforks if he *only* gets 99% of the vote. He's also well behind Bert Blyleven in WAR, who got 17.5% of the vote his first time around. Griffey did have a better peak, but not by as much as you might think (WAR of top 3 seasons is 27.5 to 25.0, top 7 seasons is 53.9 to 50.7, both in favor of Junior). Blyleven has a higher JAWS, 73.0 to 68.8. I think people are forgetting how injury prone and less effective he was once he left (forced his way from) Seattle, when he was only 29.
Again, he was great, inner-circle HOFer for the Seattle part of his career. Not voting for him is silly. But there are blemishes. The movement should have been for Randy Johnson or Greg Maddux.
Again, he was great, inner-circle HOFer for the Seattle part of his career. Not voting for him is silly. But there are blemishes. The movement should have been for Randy Johnson or Greg Maddux.
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