Grant “Corner Office” Williams

sezwho

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As a general matter, I don’t think fringe NBA bigs benefit much from time in the G League. We saw, not that long ago, the likes of Fab Melo and Jordan Mickey put up some decent G-League stats, but that didn’t make either one a legit NBA player.

I think a guy like TL is an exception to that. What he lacks is some basic fundamentals, as opposed to lacking talentand getting reps in a different setting (and without the pressure of needing to produce) might just be the best thing for him.

I could see him shuttling back and forth with Poirier, though, as both could probably use the more regular reps.
This seems to be the general consensus, and I'm onboard with this as well. If a big is athletic enough to be a difference maker in the NBA then he can really dominate the G-League even without growing as a player.

The hybrid plan might work for him though, where he gets game time reps and work on the scheme back in Portland. Tacko too.
 

benhogan

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I love the repeated emphasis on how 96th percentile is actually quite uncommon.
Yea its water is wet type of analysis. It sounds like the 20yrs & 96% combo that shocked them.

It's nice that he has Semi-like strength, but it also seems like he has enough hops to defend the rim.

I expect Grant to eventually live in Baynes playpen commonly known as the Hustle Leaders page on NBA.com

https://stats.nba.com/players/hustle-leaders/
 

amarshal2

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Grant also is a plus passer, like Smart and Green (who is ++). I think Smart/Green will be much better overall playmakers given their ability to run the point.
 

jimv

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The main similarity between him and Smart (there are others, but this is a big one), is the preternatural anticipation on defense. They basically live 3 seconds in the future.
This hits the nail on the head - Grant can watch the play develop, anticipate the the offensive action and get to the right spot. Uncanny for such a young player. Maybe some of that can rub off on TL
 

PedroKsBambino

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Grant also is a plus passer, like Smart and Green (who is ++). I think Smart/Green will be much better overall playmakers given their ability to run the point.
This is the big difference between him and a PJ Tucker...he's a useful and versatile offensive player, especially the passing. He needs to show he can hit the 3 like Tucker has, but there's some reason to think that is viable. Of course, it also remains to be seen if he is as good defensively in more minutes and against more types of players as Tucker is too....but the upside case is pretty different.
 

RetractableRoof

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I love the repeated emphasis on how 96th percentile is actually quite uncommon.
The game against Philly he ended up (during transition) on Embid outside/nearly outside the paint. He gave Embid a little shove in the lower back/upper glute area and Embid was *moved* forward. The rest of the players caught up and he was switched off, so I didn't get to see more. It seems he already has the strength to deny Embid his desired spot, and the IQ to play a tough defense. It's a shame that I don't think he has the quickness to guard Embid (or any of the really quick centers for long) for very long.

jimv said:
This hits the nail on the head - Grant can watch the play develop, anticipate the the offensive action and get to the right spot. Uncanny for such a young player. Maybe some of that can rub off on TL
And he also is able to communicate to his teammates what he is seeing. He's already directing his teammates around defensively. Amazing for a rookie.
 

nighthob

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The thing is, a big version of Smart is WAY more valuable than Smart himself. Draymond and Smart have very similar skillsets and intelligence, but that extra 3-4 inches and extra pounds completely change Draymond's impact, since you can put out super-spaced/fast/switchy lineups that still have the ability to bang with the other teams big and not give up much on that end. If Grant has anything qualitatively like that ability, it's a real game-changer, even if his mentality and skills are similar to Smart's.

tldr; it sucks for Marcus Smart that he wasn't born a bit taller.
Joel Embiid wakes up screaming from nightmares of having to play a 6’7” 240lb Marcus Smart.
 

PedrosRedGlove

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Grant also is a plus passer, like Smart and Green (who is ++). I think Smart/Green will be much better overall playmakers given their ability to run the point.
I'm not sure Williams is too far behind in that category either. He hasn't run the point exactly but he did show an ability at times over the summer to lead a transition and find a quick assist. I wasn't expecting him to be able to run the floor with the ball quite like that at his size.
 

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My memory of Don Nelson is a bit faded but that's the best comparison I've heard so far. Gritty, smart, strong, not the best athlete on the floor but good basketball sense.
 

RorschachsMask

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I keep using a copout comparison using two players. PJ Tucker/Boris Diaw hybrid.

He's going to be a real weapon in the high post, IMO.
 
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Devizier

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I went with Jerome Williams because of the mustache and the defensive ability. But Grant is way bigger/stronger than Junkyard Dog. He's also not totally worthless on offense.
 

Koufax

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Nelie is in the HOF as a coach, not a player. He was the 17th pick in the draft, selected by the Chicago Zephyrs. Played for the Lakers then the Celtics. Got 5 rings. Here's hoping Grant Williams gets the same.
 

Spelunker

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I’m surprised GW is as low as 96th percentile. His bench press performance at the combine would’ve been good for a linebacker.
The NFL combine counts reps of 225 lbs on the bench press, the NBA uses 185 lbs.
It's worth noting- unless I'm misreading- that the 96th percentile isn't for bench press, it's for generating leg force (the jumping pressure test). To wit:

First, let’s talk about strength, which is measured with a 60 kilogram trap bar jump on top of a reactive plate that measures the force being generated.

“One of his greatest strengths is his strength,” Eric Leidersdorf, P3’s Director of Biomechanics, said. “On Day One, Grant ranked in the 96th percentile relative to professional basketball players we’ve tested. So already, it’s rare to see that period. Not many guys dance at that level. But it’s even more rare when the guy isn’t quite at drinking age. The fact that he’s going into the NBA already with a well developed strength base should serve him well as he moves into a higher level of play. He’s able to put a lot of force in the ground.”
It's a super neat test, and likely a better measuring stick for NBA players than bench (although I'm sure his bench percentile is also really high, given that number of reps). Especially when talking about being able to hold his position and people bouncing off of him.
 

PedrosRedGlove

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Yes, a bigger Smart would be way more valuable. I don't see WIlliams as being that, or really resembling Smart much at all. Does he have Smart's intensity? His quick hands? What exactly is the similarity?
There was a sequence last night where Williams went to float a short pass into the left corner, had it picked off, stayed with the play to immediately deflect the outlet pass, which he then had to save from going out of bounds by heaving it back out to someone waiting at the 3pt line. It was the most Marcus Smart moment I've ever seen from someone that wasn't the man himself.
 

lovegtm

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Grant needs to play more. This isn't a "win more regular season games", this is a "you have a freaking defensive savant and he needs minutes to develop" thing.
 

Koufax

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There was a sequence last night where Williams went to float a short pass into the left corner, had it picked off, stayed with the play to immediately deflect the outlet pass, which he then had to save from going out of bounds by heaving it back out to someone waiting at the 3pt line. It was the most Marcus Smart moment I've ever seen from someone that wasn't the man himself.
Yes, I saw that play and had the same thought. "That's what the SOSH guys have been talking about . . . "
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Great response to his DNP last night here: https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2019/11/boston-celtics-brad-stevens-on-grant-williams-blocked-shots-we-were-dead-grant-covered-for-us.html. I don't know whether Brad thought the PHO matchup was going to be better for him but his energy certainly made a difference last night. Quote:

"For our team, we’re so deep, we have a lot of guys who can step up on the same night, so you can’t take it personally that you didn’t play. Maybe it’s the game plan, so you gotta trust what Brad is doing. That’s the approach that I’m taking now where it’s like, when your number’s called, you try to bring that same intensity whether you’re playing or not.”
 

DJnVa

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God, I hope he hits a three pointer soon. He had an open on late last night and you could see some of the guys on bench stand up and get ready to explode and it rimmed out.
 

TripleOT

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I like what I see from GW so far, but it would be nice if he could fling a three pointer into the basket at least once. He looks like he has a nice release, but just can't make one.

He's good at mucking up the paint, and has a lot of defensive versatility. A big plus is he's a team player who competes hard every second he's on the floor.
 
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benhogan

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Grant needs to play more. This isn't a "win more regular season games", this is a "you have a freaking defensive savant and he needs minutes to develop" thing.
I'm firmly in the push/develop Grant (~20mpg) and Carsen (~15mpg) more minutes camp.

It will pay off by seasons end and the years to come with little downside to the regular-season record.
 

benhogan

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He should be in line to get significant minutes tonight. The Clippers are not a good match for Kanter.
that's funny I see Zubac as the classic, big, slow, bulky center Kanter would match up with

although Lou Will can PnR Enes to death

I'm all for less Kanter and more TL/Theis/Grant
 

lovegtm

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I'm firmly in the push/develop Grant (~20mpg) and Carsen (~15mpg) minutes camp.

It will pay off by seasons end and the years to come with little downside to the regular-season record.
Yeah, the Celtics have already banked a lot of wins, and are a talented, well-coached team that will pick up a lot of wins against bad/mediocre teams just from disciplined ball pressure and having Kemba/Brown/Hayward/Tatum on offense.

Having Grant and TL be playable against Giannis (for example) is way more important than whether a potential game 7 is in Milwaukee.

Everyone here drools over Toronto's track record developing low draft picks, but Toronto consistently gives those guys real minutes and opportunities in a well-structured environment. It's not just about whom they draft: it's about what they do with them after they're on the team.
 

benhogan

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Everyone here drools over Toronto's track record developing low draft picks, but Toronto consistently gives those guys real minutes and opportunities in a well-structured environment. It's not just about whom they draft: it's about what they do with them after they're on the team.
yep, just looked at Siakam (27th pick), VanVleet (undrafted), Powell (46th pick, 2nd round), Anunoby (23rd pick).
Their rookie and 2nd seasons are nothing to write home about.

BUT Toronto stayed with them, played them ~15-20mpg, while contending. Now they are reaping the rewards of their development.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anunoog01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/v/vanvlfr01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/siakapa01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/powelno01.html
 
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Jimbodandy

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Yeah, the Celtics have already banked a lot of wins, and are a talented, well-coached team that will pick up a lot of wins against bad/mediocre teams just from disciplined ball pressure and having Kemba/Brown/Hayward/Tatum on offense.

Having Grant and TL be playable against Giannis (for example) is way more important than whether a potential game 7 is in Milwaukee.

Everyone here drools over Toronto's track record developing low draft picks, but Toronto consistently gives those guys real minutes and opportunities in a well-structured environment. It's not just about whom they draft: it's about what they do with them after they're on the team.
Great post. 1 800 Minutes 4 Kids.

Edit: two great posts, BH and LTGM.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Grant has a real knack for blocking shots as the help D. His timing is great and despite a height/athleticism disadvantage it seems like he is always meeting the shooter at the peak of his release or beating him to it in situations where being a tick too early means a lay-off or pumpfake for an easy two or a tick too late means a foul. BBIQ for days.
 

NomarsFool

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It's super early in the season, and he's also missed a big portion of that, but the way the Celtics have been playing this season doesn't seem like Kanter is a great fit. Maybe there will be other games in the season where they will find his half-court offense more useful, but right now the spirit of this team is having guys flying all over the court on the defensive end, trapping, causing turnovers, and getting out on the fast break. Even when they go into the half-court, it's more about ball movement and getting shots for J, J, G, and K. Just doesn't seem like Kanter's game is a great fit for this team. I also feel like TL has taken a big step this season (hoping he can stay on the court).
 

lovegtm

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It's super early in the season, and he's also missed a big portion of that, but the way the Celtics have been playing this season doesn't seem like Kanter is a great fit. Maybe there will be other games in the season where they will find his half-court offense more useful, but right now the spirit of this team is having guys flying all over the court on the defensive end, trapping, causing turnovers, and getting out on the fast break. Even when they go into the half-court, it's more about ball movement and getting shots for J, J, G, and K. Just doesn't seem like Kanter's game is a great fit for this team. I also feel like TL has taken a big step this season (hoping he can stay on the court).
Yeah, I think Kanter’s destiny is likely to be stapled to a late 1st rounder for a rotation big, or to just quietly be let go after the year if no deals materialize. Seems like a nice guy, but doesn’t match the on-court identity at all.
 

TripleOT

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The Celtics will continue to go with their center by committee. Even if Kanter is useful for only half the matchups, he will help the team. As long as everyone is content with their roles, I see him as a positive. Great offensive rebounder, and the only big post presence on the Celtics. I was hoping that Kanter could shore up his defense a bit, but the early injury and spotty playing time hasn't given him a chance to get his defensive sea legs. There's a good chance he will never get better on the defensive end, which is really puzzling, since he seems to be a hard worker who has a good motor.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Yeah, the Celtics have already banked a lot of wins, and are a talented, well-coached team that will pick up a lot of wins against bad/mediocre teams just from disciplined ball pressure and having Kemba/Brown/Hayward/Tatum on offense.

Having Grant and TL be playable against Giannis (for example) is way more important than whether a potential game 7 is in Milwaukee.

Everyone here drools over Toronto's track record developing low draft picks, but Toronto consistently gives those guys real minutes and opportunities in a well-structured environment. It's not just about whom they draft: it's about what they do with them after they're on the team.
Do the Raptors "give" them minutes or do they EARN those minutes? Using VanVleet as one example wasn't given minutes in '16-'17 and began the following season as part of their deep rotation with Delon Wright getting 25, 29, and 22 min off the bench in their first 3 competitive games while Van Vleet avg 10 mpg. He didn't begin seeing full rotation minutes until Game 14 when they went small to combat the Pelicans lineup and really never looked back.

Most coaches give opportunities to players early on in the season to gain information on how to best use his roster. In VanVleet's case he took advantage of this opportunity.....in many other young players cases they don't.
 

lovegtm

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Do the Raptors "give" them minutes or do they EARN those minutes? Using VanVleet as one example wasn't given minutes in '16-'17 and began the following season as part of their deep rotation with Delon Wright getting 25, 29, and 22 min off the bench in their first 3 competitive games while Van Vleet avg 10 mpg. He didn't begin seeing full rotation minutes until Game 14 when they went small to combat the Pelicans lineup and really never looked back.

Most coaches give opportunities to players early on in the season to gain information on how to best use his roster. In VanVleet's case he took advantage of this opportunity.....in many other young players cases they don't.
It’s a bit of semantics here: the players have to earn those minutes, but you also have to work through the expected young-guy struggles.

Grant’s pretty clearly earned 10-20 minutes/night imo, and it’s important for morale (as well as development) that he get them.
 

Eddie Jurak

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that's funny I see Zubac as the classic, big, slow, bulky center Kanter would match up with

although Lou Will can PnR Enes to death

I'm all for less Kanter and more TL/Theis/Grant
You read my mind here. I think Kanter can handle Zubac, but not in the PNR, especially with Lou. And they can't let him anywhere near Harrell.
It's super early in the season, and he's also missed a big portion of that, but the way the Celtics have been playing this season doesn't seem like Kanter is a great fit. Maybe there will be other games in the season where they will find his half-court offense more useful, but right now the spirit of this team is having guys flying all over the court on the defensive end, trapping, causing turnovers, and getting out on the fast break. Even when they go into the half-court, it's more about ball movement and getting shots for J, J, G, and K. Just doesn't seem like Kanter's game is a great fit for this team. I also feel like TL has taken a big step this season (hoping he can stay on the court).
Their bench offense is still pretty bad, which opens up a little bit of an opportunity for Kanter. I think the key is to try to get him working against backup bigs.
 

NomarsFool

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Although when GH is back, I don't think the Celtics will have much trouble putting up consistent offense throughout the game. With the big 4 having their breaks spread out through the game, I don't think we'll ever be without 2 of them on the court. I assume at some point GW will be able to score. Edwards is a mystery to me, as I can't tell how his defense will evolve and if he'll be able to adjust to being a low volume scorer.
 

TripleOT

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Hot take: Grant Williams will make a three tonight in Denver. He's better at altitude.
 

Jimbodandy

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I remembered him using the three more at the end of his career, but when I looked it up, he took 137 threes over four seasons and 277 games. His first nine seasons he took only 20 threes.

As an aside, James Harden has made more threes in his first 14 games this season than the entire Celtics team made for the season in Mchale's rookie year, 68 to 65.
This page covers this topic nicely. First, it was a cultural thing. Players were encouraged to take closer shots at all times. Even after the line was added to the NBA, that thinking persisted for years. The 3pt shot was considered a thing for when you were down by three with five seconds left. Meet Terry Duerod. Second, these guys didn't grow up with the line. Guys like McHale and Bird took their first threes ever as NBA players. A few guys like Bird would have grown up with carte blanche, since most of his teammates before Boston were future plumbers and electricians and he was a star, but most players hadn't taken a 23+ foot shot in their lives in game except for clock-beating heaves.

Between these two things it took years before anyone considered bombing at all and only in the last decade before we started trying to get everyone to do it, regardless of size and position. Now pretty much everyone is encouraged to learn it and keep trying. Even 20 years ago, the thought of a Baynes or Horford learning that mid career and making it into a weapon might have gotten you fired as an NBA coach.