Grant “Corner Office” Williams

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
OK he didn't show up every game and guard Giannis...right let's keep on going back to PPG

too bad we didn't have Kemba this series we could have used him
Where was he in the 4th quarter of game 4 to guard Giannis? He didn't show up every game. Keep on being a fan boy though.

And I hated Kemba just as much as you so yeah. At least get your posters right before making some bs strawman. We are talking about Grant Williams, not Kemba Walker. Keep talking about points too even though that isn't anyone's argument. Easy to knock down things people aren't saying.

Like I said, you aren't worth arguing with.

edit: How about I put words in your mouth and make up shit too? Fun times. Anyone who disagrees with BenHogan clearly isn't paying attention though.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
15,879
Santa Monica
See games 1, 3, 4, 5, 6 for proof.

Dude has good games and bad. He's a bench player. He also does particularly bad on the road. But ok.

Not worth arguing with if you can't even admit he had shit games this series. Seriously?
Yep, he had some bad offensive games. The guy was getting physically beaten up by Giannis.

But lets keep pretending he's a world beater and showed up for all 7 games.

This board is ridiculous when it comes to Grant Williams. Especially when he has a good game. Took like 3 months last season for people to admit he was fat. I don't get it.

Such a lock down defender he didn't even play the 4th quarter in game 4. Great game though.
no one thinks he's a world-beater, he'll get somewhere in the TL extension ballpark.~$12/yr slightly above the MLE

We were all concerned about Grant and Marcus's weight during the start of last season after the 6-week offseason. He clearly put on weight and he played poorly out of the gate. Talk about strawman BS
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
Yep, he had some bad offensive games. The guy was getting physically beaten up by Giannis.


no one thinks he's a world-beater, he'll get somewhere in the TL extension ballpark.~$12/yr slightly above the MLE

We were all concerned about Grant and Marcus's weight during the start of last season after the 6-week offseason. He clearly put on weight and he played poorly out of the gate. Talk about strawman BS
He had some bad defensive games, too. But ok.

I'll bump the thread. I took as much grief for calling Grant fat as I did for calling Carsen Edwards a bum. Most of you were on the "he'll burn it off during the season" wagon.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
15,879
Santa Monica
Where was he in the 4th quarter of game 4 to guard Giannis? He didn't show up every game. Keep on being a fan boy though.

And I hated Kemba just as much as you so yeah. At least get your posters right before making some bs strawman. We are talking about Grant Williams, not Kemba Walker. Keep talking about points too even though that isn't anyone's argument. Easy to knock down things people aren't saying.

Like I said, you aren't worth arguing with.

edit: How about I put words in your mouth and make up shit too? Fun times. Anyone who disagrees with BenHogan clearly isn't paying attention though.
angry much?

The Celtics just won game 7. Guess that's the fanboy in me
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
angry much?

The Celtics just won game 7. Guess that's the fanboy in me
I'm not angry. You just accuse anyone who disagrees with you of not paying attention and then spew a bunch of nonsense that has nothing to do with anything. Then you bring up things I never said to make your point.

How am I supposed to respond? Your argument sucked.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
15,879
Santa Monica
I'm not angry. You just accuse anyone who disagrees with you of not paying attention and then spew a bunch of nonsense that has nothing to do with anything. Then you bring up things I never said to make your point.

How am I supposed to respond? Your argument sucked.
I was replying and agreeing with DBMH

Grant and Horford played a big role in that series. I wasn't splitting atoms here.
I do think that after Game 1 IME decided to let Horford/Grant take on Giannis 1-1- and clamp down on the perimeter. That was my main takeaway. It had a knock-on effect on the rest of the defense

Nothing was directed at you
 

TripleOT

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 4, 2007
6,088
Whenever someone goes the “fanboy” route on this board, I know their argument is flawed. Take that over to Twitte, where it’s more welcome. If someone doesn’t want to acknowledge the defensive effort GW put in this series, from guarding Giannis to Jrue, the see, to be more interested in trying to win an argument that reflecting the truth.

Maybe posting the same point about Grant not playing in the fourth quarter of game 4 three or four times might change more minds on here.

Signed,
A Grant fanboy (who actually understands how much value this rookie salary scale rotation contributor has on a championship contender)
 

TripleOT

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 4, 2007
6,088
Where have I not acknowledged he had good games? I also acknowledge he had some bad games. Sorry you can't do the same. Other posters have, just like other posters pointed out the 4th quarter.

You are the same one posting for victory points in the PP thread after 1 good game, though. Why is always all or nothing on here?

Yeah, no shit he is a contributor. Who said he wasn't? So many strawmen. So much hyperbole. How can anyone think Grant had a bad game? Blasphemy.
Obsessing on what lightly paid role players can’t do is annoying and stupid. To build a championship team in a salary cap league, guys like Grant and PP (who may be lacking an all around game) contributing is a must. That’s why I made a point of taking a victory lap in the Pritchard thread. I’m still waiting for the naysayers to drop in over there to admit they underestimated him.

Guys like you just can’t let go of a take, and it’s freaking annoying, especially when you insist on quadrupling down on it all the time. You’re also a hypocrite, lamenting strawmen arguments, but calling people fanboys.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
15,879
Santa Monica
Where have I not acknowledged he had good games? I also acknowledge he had some bad games. Sorry you can't do the same. Other posters have, just like other posters pointed out the 4th quarter.

You are the same one posting for victory points in the PP thread after 1 good game, though. Why is always all or nothing on here?

Yeah, no shit he is a contributor. Who said he wasn't? So many strawmen. So much hyperbole. How can anyone think Grant had a bad game? Blasphemy.
bad or good is relative to expectations

Grant and Horford's defensive roles had an effect on the overall way IME wanted the team to play defense (IME deserves a lot of the credit for making this adjustment after Game 1)

Did Grant shoot poorly on small volume from 3 for many games, absolutely. No one is denying that (so did Al Horford for that matter). BUT 90% of their job was to take on Giannis. It worked. Their defense was there from Games 2-7 and Grant/Al had an influence on Milwaukee's 3pt shooting. Getting 2 huge offensive games from Horford/Grant also countered Bud's strategy.

Let's lose the name-calling, we all post around here a lot and get stuff wrong (type mea culpa next to my name and you'll get pages)
 
Last edited:

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
39,028
Melrose, MA
Al Horford and Grant Williams were #1 and #2 in the NBA in isolation possessions against in the regular season. And their PPP allowed on the isos was good (from a defensive point of view). They weren't league best PPP on isos, but the high number of possessions says 2 things: 1) teams were willing to try isos against Al and Grant; and 2) Ime was comfortable leaving them on that island.

During this series, I would guess that either Al or Grant had Giannis on most possessions, and that (distant) #3 was Marcus Smart. Part of the Celtics plan seemed to be keep Tatum off of him, and we saw very clearly how badly Giannis abused Jaylen on the rare occasions Jaylen tried to guard him.

All of which is to say, Grant is a core part of how the Celtics defend. That was true in the regular season and true (and all the more important) in the playoffs. He had his good games and bad ones, but over the course of that full series he was not replaceable. Put Theis on Giannis and he guards less efffectively and fouls out. Put Brown on him and Giannis puts up a couple of 50 point games. Horford is 35 and probably took on Giannis as much as he could while still producing some offense. Smart is 6'3" and if you go to that matchup often enough, Giannis likely figures out how to use his advantages.

Yes, Grant has good games and bad games, but even so he was integral to this win.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
Obsessing on what lightly paid role players can’t do is annoying and stupid. To build a championship team in a salary cap league, guys like Grant and PP (who may be lacking an all around game) contributing is a must. That’s why I made a point of taking a victory lap in the Pritchard thread. I’m still waiting for the naysayers to drop in over there to admit they underestimated him.

Guys like you just can’t let go of a take, and it’s freaking annoying, especially when you insist on quadrupling down on it all the time. You’re also a hypocrite, lamenting strawmen arguments, but calling people fanboys.
It's not a take and this is funny from someone who has a PP take and asked for victory points. And I called him a fanboy when he said "Anyone who can't see this is clearly not paying attention." It's called fire with fire. But you don't want to see that, because I'm not on your side of the argument.

I also edited my post to let it go and you decided to respond anyway. Way to let it go.

It's not even obsessing. I'm posting on a message board that he had a few bad games. That's what the board is here for. You are just butthurt about the take. Which you admitted. You are annoyed about my "negative" take but someone can repeat the same positive take and it's ok, as long as they agree with you.

You are allowed to think I'm annoying though. I think all the referee complaining is pretty annoying.
 
Last edited:

TripleOT

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 4, 2007
6,088
It's not a take and this is funny from someone who has a PP take and asked for victory points. And I called him a fanboy when he said "Anyone who can't see this is clearly not paying attention." It's called fire with fire. But you don't want to see that, because I'm not on your side of the argument.

I also edited my post to let it go and you decided to respond anyway. Way to let it go.

It's not even obsessing. I'm posting on a message board that he had a few bad games. That's what the board is here for. You are just butthurt about the take. Which you admitted. You are annoyed about my "negative" take but someone can repeat the same positive take and it's ok, as long as they agree with you.

You are allowed to think I'm annoying though. I think all the referee complaining is pretty annoying.
You are entering troll territory, something that’s not common on this board, thankfully. My annoyance was more with your multiple postings, and that’s why I jumped into this morass you helped create.

Now I will exit this mess. Feel free to get in the last word. Maybe you can follow up “butthurt” by dusting off an old troll favorite like “pwned”.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
I'm autistic, you know that right? You are playing the same game I am and acting holier than thou. At least I have an excuse. What's yours? I've tried to drop it and you keep dragging me back with "troll behavior." Look in a mirror dude. You helped create it too.
 

TripleOT

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 4, 2007
6,088
I'm autistic, you know that right? You are playing the same game I am and acting holier than thou. At least I have an excuse. What's yours? I've tried to drop it and you keep dragging me back with "troll behavior." Look in a mirror dude. You helped create it too.
I did not know that. My apologies for dragging out this argument.

Even before I read this last post I was thinking to come in and back off on this stupid argument. As Celtics fans we should be really happy today.
 

TripleOT

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 4, 2007
6,088
Apologies CC.

Grant is my new Baynes.

I love me some role players that play defense
And I love scrappy, flawed (by either size or missing skills) underdogs who work like crazy to find a place in the league, especially ones willing to put their heart and body on the floor every second they play, which is most compelling in a league when athletically gifted players often don’t.

Their athletically gifted, right sized teammates also do. Tatum, despite the ribbing, is a huge Grant advocate. Brown has made a point this season to take PP under his wing, playing a lot of one on one with him, and it shows in the improvement PP has made in slowing bigger players when defending switches.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
even Fitts.
If the C's do win a title, the back end of the bench is a big reason why. They made big contributions all season long. Juwan Morgan has contributed 4 minutes in the regular season and 1 in the playoffs. It was integral to the C's success.

On a serious note, imagine what's going on in Juwan Morgan's head right now.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

posts 18% useful shit
SoSH Member
Nov 17, 2010
13,219
Where was he in the 4th quarter of game 4 to guard Giannis? He didn't show up every game. Keep on being a fan boy though.

And I hated Kemba just as much as you so yeah. At least get your posters right before making some bs strawman. We are talking about Grant Williams, not Kemba Walker. Keep talking about points too even though that isn't anyone's argument. Easy to knock down things people aren't saying.

Like I said, you aren't worth arguing with.

edit: How about I put words in your mouth and make up shit too? Fun times. Anyone who disagrees with BenHogan clearly isn't paying attention though.
I don't really get your point. Is anyone saying that Grant didn't have up and down games?

My point a few pages ago was that he was only 23, has proven he can add to his game (he couldnt shoot from deep when he came into the league, he can actually drive from the corner this year, etc), is fantastic on defense, and lead the league in 3 point %. I mean, a dude that leads the league in 3 point % and is an incredibly versatile defender is one of the best 3-and-D assets in the league and deserves to be paid as such.

All he's done since then is help lock up the best player in the league and play enough offense in a series to even lead the team in scoring one game.

No, he hasn't been perfect. Yes, he had some poor outings. But, as you stated, so did Tatum. We don't seem to be holding that against him after the win.

If he could perform at his peak performance every game, he'd be a superstar. He's not a superstar. But he's a damn good player who has shown the ability to improve every offseason.
 
Last edited:

JakeRae

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 21, 2005
7,533
New York, NY
I don't really get your point. Is anyone saying that Grant didn't have up and down games?

My point a few pages ago was that he was only 23, has proven he can add to his game (he couldnt shoot from deep when he came into the league, he can actually drive from the corner this year, etc), is fantastic on defense, and lead the league in 3 point %. I mean, a dude that leads the league in 3 point % and is an incredibly versatile defender is one of the best 3-and-D assets in the league and deserves to be paid as such.

All he's done since then is help lock up the best player in the league and play enough offense in a series to even lead the team in scoring one game.

No, he hasn't been perfect. Yes, he had some poor outings. But, as you stated, so did Tatum. We don't seem to be holding that against him after the win.

If he could perform at his peak performance every game, he'd be a superstar. He's not a superstar. But he's a damn good player who has shown the ability to improve every offseason.
Peak Grant Williams isn’t close to a superstar. There is no version of Grant Williams that could succeed in a role where he was a focal point of an offense (and thus of the defense). He would likely get completely shut down while turning the ball over a catastrophic number of times.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

posts 18% useful shit
SoSH Member
Nov 17, 2010
13,219
Peak Grant Williams isn’t close to a superstar. There is no version of Grant Williams that could succeed in a role where he was a focal point of an offense (and thus of the defense). He would likely get completely shut down while turning the ball over a catastrophic number of times.
You pretty much ignored my entire post to focus on the least important sentence.

I said he's a good 3 and D guy. That's basically the gist.
 

reggiecleveland

sublime
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2004
26,978
Saskatoon Canada
You pretty much ignored my entire post to focus on the least important sentence.

I said he's a good 3 and D guy. That's basically the gist.
Yeah spotting 3 and D guys is tough. I am ashamed of how low I was on both Grant, and even Marcus Smart. Your post did a good job of detailing his improvement. his smarts and work effort were cited when he was drafted, and have allowed exceptional improvement.
 

tbb345

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
4,409
The story Ryan Russillo told about Grant and LeBron on the latest Simmons podcast is definitely worth seeking out and listening to
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
27,354
The story Ryan Russillo told about Grant and LeBron on the latest Simmons podcast is definitely worth seeking out and listening to
Podcast is here for people who are interested: https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/the-bill-simmons/super-jimmy-thwarts-bostons-uxSiYpcvWrN/. Approximately 32:00.

Of more concerning note, I didn't listen to the entire episode but around the 14:49 mark, KOC says something about Simmons' Dad being in the locker room and TL going to the locker room. Simmons confirms that TL was not on the bench for the last part of the 4Q. I just went back and looked. TL got u to replace Horford around the 5:31 mark but went back when Al hit the 3P. TL was on the bench and standing up when White hit his 3P. But around the 3:00 mark, I don't see him on the bench anymore.

Must have been something going on with TL during that game. Hopefully it doesn't carry over.
 

128

Member
SoSH Member
May 4, 2019
8,038
Podcast is here for people who are interested: https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/the-bill-simmons/super-jimmy-thwarts-bostons-uxSiYpcvWrN/. Approximately 32:00.

Of more concerning note, I didn't listen to the entire episode but around the 14:49 mark, KOC says something about Simmons' Dad being in the locker room and TL going to the locker room. Simmons confirms that TL was not on the bench for the last part of the 4Q. I just went back and looked. TL got u to replace Horford around the 5:31 mark but went back when Al hit the 3P. TL was on the bench and standing up when White hit his 3P. But around the 3:00 mark, I don't see him on the bench anymore.

Must have been something going on with TL during that game. Hopefully it doesn't carry over.
I haven't had a chance to listen to the podcast yet, but Bill Simmons' father was in the C's locker room during a game?
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
27,354
I haven't had a chance to listen to the podcast yet, but Bill Simmons' father was in the C's locker room during a game?
Maybe I misinterpreted. Here's my transcript of the converssation, starting at 14:15 mark:

Simmons: ". . . the fact that [TL] wasn't even out there at the end, I thought that really handicapped Udoka because Grant has sucked, really for most of the series but especially the last couple of games, he was bad again today. That was why they had to waste that challenge. I guess in retrospect 'cause they knew that Rob wasn't coming back, right KOC, so like Grant can't foul out because then what are you going to do? But Grant was bad so the Rob thing lingering into Game 7 plus Smart looking the way he did, I'm definitely not optimistic."
(I think this was KOC talking): "And you said, that your Dad mentioned that he was in the locker room? He saw him go to the locker room?"
Simmons: "Yeah, he left. He left in the fourth quarter apparently."
KOC: "I mean that's terrible news for Boston."

At any rate, just saw on twitter that TL was upgraded to probable and will have no minutes restrictions if he plays.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
15,879
Santa Monica
Podcast is here for people who are interested: https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/the-bill-simmons/super-jimmy-thwarts-bostons-uxSiYpcvWrN/. Approximately 32:00.

Of more concerning note, I didn't listen to the entire episode but around the 14:49 mark, KOC says something about Simmons' Dad being in the locker room and TL going to the locker room. Simmons confirms that TL was not on the bench for the last part of the 4Q. I just went back and looked. TL got u to replace Horford around the 5:31 mark but went back when Al hit the 3P. TL was on the bench and standing up when White hit his 3P. But around the 3:00 mark, I don't see him on the bench anymore.

Must have been something going on with TL during that game. Hopefully it doesn't carry over.
no Greg, no Greg, that's not it Greg...

OMG hilarious
 

tbb345

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
4,409
Maybe I misinterpreted. Here's my transcript of the converssation, starting at 14:15 mark:

Simmons: ". . . the fact that [TL] wasn't even out there at the end, I thought that really handicapped Udoka because Grant has sucked, really for most of the series but especially the last couple of games, he was bad again today. That was why they had to waste that challenge. I guess in retrospect 'cause they knew that Rob wasn't coming back, right KOC, so like Grant can't foul out because then what are you going to do? But Grant was bad so the Rob thing lingering into Game 7 plus Smart looking the way he did, I'm definitely not optimistic."
(I think this was KOC talking): "And you said, that your Dad mentioned that he was in the locker room? He saw him go to the locker room?"
Simmons: "Yeah, he left. He left in the fourth quarter apparently."
KOC: "I mean that's terrible news for Boston."

At any rate, just saw on twitter that TL was upgraded to probable and will have no minutes restrictions if he plays.
No you interpreted it completely correctly but wasn’t Rob going to check in with like 5 minutes left? I’m guessing that Bill’s dad was just wrong
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
27,354
No you interpreted it completely correctly but wasn’t Rob going to check in with like 5 minutes left? I’m guessing that Bill’s dad was just wrong
I think I misinterpreted. When KOC says, "that your Dad mentioned that HE was in the locker room? He saw HIM go to the locker room?", I think the all caps HE and HIM are TL, not the Dad.

So no, Simmons' Dad was not in the locker room. Yes, Simmons' Dad saw TL go to the locker room.

As for your point, yes, TL was at the scorer's table at 5:21 when Al hit his 3P but around 3:00 minutes left, I didn't see him in the bench area. I didn't watch the entire last 3 minutes (couldn't put my heart under the stress but I spot checked at couple of points and didn't see TL on the bench.

He's playing tonight. Let's hope he can be somewhat close to full strength.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
9,526
Toscana via Kyiv
I disagree with yall. Grant should learn to better take advantage of the pump fake. Get more confident in his ball handling and making the right pass when penetrating off a closeout would be great for him and the team. I think he has already had some good ones this playoffs.
Moving Grant talk here...the fact that he has room to improve in both in release quickness and playmaking in space is why I'd be comfortable signing him and expecting improvement.

Also, win or lose in the Finals, he has cost himself some money in the last 2 rounds. Barring some crazy flurry the rest of this series, I bet they get it done at somewhere between 4/42 and 4/52, which is in fistpump territory from the team perspective, given his age and things he's shown already.
 

Euclis20

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2004
5,395
Imaginationland
Moving Grant talk here...the fact that he has room to improve in both in release quickness and playmaking in space is why I'd be comfortable signing him and expecting improvement.

Also, win or lose in the Finals, he has cost himself some money in the last 2 rounds. Barring some crazy flurry the rest of this series, I bet they get it done at somewhere between 4/42 and 4/52, which is in fistpump territory from the team perspective, given his age and things he's shown already.
I don't know if he's cost himself money so much as he's highlighted the fact that the Milwaukee series was the best stretch of his career by a mile. 250 games played in his career (including playoffs) and he's been over 20 points twice: Game 1 against Milwaukee, and Game 7 against Milwaukee. He had analysts talking about how he was about to get $15-$20M annually, which is really crazy. I think the Celtics would be reasonably happy with him getting $10-$13 annually, and so should he.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
25,553
Moving Grant talk here...the fact that he has room to improve in both in release quickness and playmaking in space is why I'd be comfortable signing him and expecting improvement.

Also, win or lose in the Finals, he has cost himself some money in the last 2 rounds. Barring some crazy flurry the rest of this series, I bet they get it done at somewhere between 4/42 and 4/52, which is in fistpump territory from the team perspective, given his age and things he's shown already.
I dunno. I don’t see much upside from here. He’s in the best shape of his career (in a contract year), he’s already mature as a player both physically/skill wise and is a slow-twitch guy so I don’t really agree about him having a quicker release than he does now. What you see is what you get which is a good solid role player but his lack of physicals attributes cap his ceiling.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
9,526
Toscana via Kyiv
I dunno. I don’t see much upside from here. He’s in the best shape of his career (in a contract year), he’s already mature as a player both physically/skill wise and is a slow-twitch guy so I don’t really agree about him having a quicker release than he does now. What you see is what you get which is a good solid role player but his lack of physicals attributes cap his ceiling.
Sure, I'm not going to die on the hill of "Grant will get a way quicker release." As for the other stuff: I generally don't like to bet against high BBIQ 23 year olds with skill when the question is "can he get better playing in space off the catch?" Regardless of physical attributes.

I'm not really convinced that "what you see is what you get", even if the long-term upside is 4th starter on a good team. Locking in a likely 4th-6th best player at 8-10% of the cap would be a nice win imo.
 

NomarsFool

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 21, 2001
6,554
Earlier in the playoffs, it seemed like Grant could guard almost anyone on the floor. Lately, it has seemed like all he can do is “the Grant” which is when you put your hands straight up, the defender bounces off you to draw the foul, and they shoot over you to get than and one. Add that to his inability to get open lately and he’s seeming much more limited than he used to be. Calling him “Baby Al” wasn’t really fair because he doesn’t have the length to ever be Al Horford, but his ceiling sure seems lower lately.