Gordon Hayward 2020: I'm standing here in pieces and you're having delusions of grandeur!

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lovegtm

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I understand the value part of it but why wouldn’t he play? We just lost a playoff series to a team playing multiple guys they hid on D at the bottom of a zone and completely stifled our offense as we had nobody who could shoot them out of it and force them into man. I don’t think he’d be a starter but he’s an NBA player with a real skill we could use
The problem is that 3PT% is only half of the skill: being able to get the 3s off in the first place is an even bigger part.

McDermott's 3PA/36 numbers are really low for a guy whose only value is sniping.
 

BigSoxFan

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It really depends on what GH will sign obviously, but more options can't hurt.

I'm with Baynes Hogan on this and anyone else who thinks that Pritchard is in the weakest position here.

The only scenarios that are bad for the Celtics involve bad trades with Indy. Every other permutation has some upside.

The only scenario that is bad for Gordon are a FA deal with the Knicks, imho. Still has upside ($).

Pritchard has a logjam at big, financial pressure to avoid the tax, and apparently a mandate to reach the 8 seed every year (i.e. no "process"). All of this will conflict with his pathological need to be the smartest guy in the room.
Yup. All true. My guess is that Hayward will signal that he’s willing to look at other locations to help Ainge out. Their interests are aligned. Pritchard may ultimately call their bluff but worth a shot.
 

BigSoxFan

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Dangerous game to play given how many more teams will have cap space.

Also I think Dipo is cooked.
What about Oladipo’s injury makes him cooked? Not questioning you but just curious if there’s been any medical discussion? I know it was a serious quad issue and he loses a lot of value if athleticism doesn’t return. Is there a belief that it never will?
 

Jimbodandy

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Cooked or not, we don't need contract year bad juju on this team loaded with young guys. The Rozier/Morris/Kyrie shit was like a year and a half ago. Have we forgotten?
 

Cellar-Door

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All the Indy moves are dangerous outside of TJ Warren. I can't see that happening.
I guess, Dipo is more so though, because you basically have 3 things that can happen:
1. He's cooked, he hurts you this year and you let him walk to a make good 1 year deal elsewhere, you got negative value for Hayward.
2. He's good, helps you some this year, signs with Miami in FA and you get nothing, you got 1 year of decent bench play for Hayward
3. He's mediocre, gives you mediocre bench play for a year, then you have to decide whether to pay him or let him walk.

I think The Turner deals have a much higher floor. You know you're getting 3 years of a good defensive C with floor stretching potential.

What about Oladipo’s injury makes him cooked? Not questioning you but just curious if there’s been any medical discussion? I know it was a serious quad issue and he loses a lot of value if athleticism doesn’t return. Is there a belief that it never will?
Not sure, but he was still having swelling and pain issues and limited burst 18 months after the injury and was playing poorly, that's real concerning. By that point in Hayward's recoiver he was playing very well.

Not every guy in a contract year is Rozier and Kyrie.
True, though Dipo allegedly shopping himself to other teams before and after games in his 2nd to last year makes me think he's a lot more Rozier/Kyrie than Horford
 

greek_gawd_of_walks

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I don't know if oladipo is cooked. He might be, or he might not be. The threat of that is there, however.

That risk, coupled with him playing for his next contract and rehabbing his worth, possibly moreso than playing the role available to him on this team, aka not being "the man" or even a starter, is something I really don't want to explore. If he was bitching in Indy, he'll be bitching here imo.
 

benhogan

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Do not help Indy.

They had the 4th best record in the EC last season. Their biggest issue is being stuck with 2 mildly expensive Centers and they need a wing. They ended up with a better record than Miami last season, a healthy Sabonis without Myles Turner clogging it up while adding Gordon Hayward makes them very good (they don't need Oladipo)

PLUS I'm not enamored with Turner's 34.4% 3pt shooting (when Theis hit 33.3% last season). A stretch big? He's a guy that will steal shots from Tatum, Brown and Kemba and set half-hearted screens. .

If blocked shots are your thing? we have a dirt-cheap Time Lord that was on the come in the bubble.

Myles Turner would be a bad move by the Celtics.

I'd rather take Atlanta's 2nd and the TPE before taking on Turners contract so we can lose Marcus Smart eventually.

Ultimately I'd rather just resign GH for 4yrs at $100MM and send Kemba home to NY to try and resurrect the Knicks
 
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mcpickl

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I wonder now that we're into day two of the Celtics and Indiana locked in a Hayward stalemate, and Milwaukee out of the mix, what Bogdan Bogdanovic thinks of Boston? And does Sacramento like Turner?

Something along the lines of

Indiana gets Hayward
Sacramento gets Turner and McDermott
Boston gets Bogdanovic and Bjelica
 

teddykgb

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Maybe, I just don't think Ainge sees him as someone who would play. He's a PF who can't be part of our defense at all given how we switch. And on offense he's a good stationary shooter, but not much else. It's especially true if you're bringing in Turner already as a 3 point shooting Big. The number of lineups and minutes I could see McDermott playing in are really limited given how much we want to play the Jays at PF.
I won’t belabor it past here and certainly the other posts about him not getting shots up could play a part but big guys like Gallinari, Saric, Bogdanovic have always found roles in the league. He may not be there yet but if encouraged to embrace the role of a spot up shooter and given opportunities to shoot off of drives from out plethora of slashers it feels to me like you could have a role there. We have had that shot falling so often to Semi when we play him or Grant Williams at times last year. Obviously there are defensive considerations as well just feels like that type of player has been an issue for us.

Won’t keep pushing it as I honestly have little opinion on the actual player involved was just surprised to see his mentions as mostly negative
 

Lazy vs Crazy

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PLUS I'm not enamored with Turner's 34.4% 3pt shooting (when Theis hit 33.3% last season). A stretch big? He's a guy that will steal shots from Tatum, Brown and Kemba and set half-hearted screens. .
I'm not sold on this part, due to volume. Turner shoots 3s at more than double the rate of Theis. Theis is often left open at the top of the arc and he stands there for like 3 seconds hurting the flow of the offense and letting the opposing big camp the paint. Having someone more willing to gun might open lanes up more.

Screens, though, that's legit.
 

radsoxfan

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My proposed trades:

1)
IND trades Turner ($18mm), Warren ($12mm)
BOS trades Hayward ($23.2mm 1st year under new 3-4 yr contract), Langford ($3.65mm), Edwards ($1.5mm), Green ($1.5mm)

2)
IND trades Turner ($18mm), A.Holiday ($2.35mm), TJ Leaf ($4.3mm)
BOS trades Hayward ($23.2mm 1st year under new 3-4 yr contract), Edwards ($1.5mm)

3)
IND trades Turner ($18mm), McDermott ($7.35mm), 2021 1st round pick swap (top-10 protected)
BOS trades Hayward ($23.2mm 1st year under new 3-4 yr contract), Edwards ($1.5mm)
You seem very intent on trading Edwards :)

I vote for #1.

I'm not too interested in Turner, McDermott, Holiday or protected picks to be honest. If those are the only options I'd much rather have Hayward back at 4/100 (or less) if at all possible.
 

bankshot1

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Are there any quirky ramifications that if a deal can't get done NOW with Indy, and the Celts resign Hayward, (lets says its a 4-100 contract) that they can't trade him in the near future, (whenever the trade deadline is, to anyone in a trade machine deal) or they mess-up their cap space. IMO the NBA rules and exceptions and abreviations are close to incomprehensible.
 

slamminsammya

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PLUS I'm not enamored with Turner's 34.4% 3pt shooting (when Theis hit 33.3% last season). A stretch big? He's a guy that will steal shots from Tatum, Brown and Kemba and set half-hearted screens. .

If blocked shots are your thing? we have a dirt-cheap Time Lord that was on the cum in the bubble.
On the what now? Its been said before but theres a large difference between Turner's numbers from three and Theis. I think timelord needs more time on the floor but there is risk that his defense never develops, and if that is the case the big man rotation is a big issue in the playoffs.
 

benhogan

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On the what now? Its been said before but theres a large difference between Turner's numbers from three and Theis. I think timelord needs more time on the floor but there is risk that his defense never develops, and if that is the case the big man rotation is a big issue in the playoffs.
whoops:oops: "on the come"

TL is our young/developing 3rd string Center that makes $2MM/yr, has very specific match up situations which CBS is very good at exploiting. He isn't a direct comp.

Celtics' offense was very efficient with Theis on the floor. While not sexy, Screens matter.

If you stick Myles Turner on the perimeter, with a 5 wide offensive concept, the defense just sticks a nimble wing on him. Then that nimble wing torches Turner off the dribble on the other side of the floor. Centers are fungible and situational
 
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radsoxfan

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What about Oladipo’s injury makes him cooked? Not questioning you but just curious if there’s been any medical discussion? I know it was a serious quad issue and he loses a lot of value if athleticism doesn’t return. Is there a belief that it never will?
He ruptured his quad, it's a pretty uncommon and serious injury for an NBA player. Usually happens in people a bit older. Here is a Q and A with an orthopedic surgeon near the time of the injury, I agree with his concerns.

I don't think we can say he's definitely cooked, but the fact that he came back and wasn't very good is a warning sign. Still might be worth the gamble, I prefer that to Turner/McDermott.



CBS SPORTS: Bottom line, do you expect Oladipo to make a full recovery?

DR. BENNER: The hard part is even if you get full range of motion back, even if you get all the strength back, there is that unknown part of the equation. Professional athletes have to put incredible stress on that muscle and tendon, whereas a normal person who sustains this injury, they're just looking to restore continuity of the muscle and get as much of the motion and function back as they can. They want to walk normal. Things like that. Victor Oladipo is an incredibly explosive and dynamic athlete. That's one of the things that makes him so special. So he has loftier expectations, or a higher bar if you will, for his recovery.

From a medical standpoint, the tendon is going to heal. If he is able to get his full motion and all the strength in his muscle back, he will be able to return to the explosive athlete he's been. But the thing is: it's hard to recover all that. There is no question that there are some aspects of an injury that might be insurmountable. Results differ from person to person, surgeon to surgeon, athletic trainer to athletic trainer. You just don't know until you get into the rehab and see how the athlete responds, and really, once he's back out there competing and being explosive and athletic.

Also, for the athlete, getting back the same level of strength and range of motion and all those things isn't the only hurdle with an injury like this. It's the mental part, the confidence to jump and land and explode the way an athlete like Oladipo is used to doing. Now, Victor Oladipo seems to be hard working and a really mentally strong guy, so I would say all indications would point to him being able to make a full recovery. But there is an unknown factor with an injury like this.
 

slamminsammya

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whoops:oops: "on the come"

TL is our young/developing 3rd string Center that makes $2MM/yr, has very specific match up situations which CBS is very good at exploiting. He isn't a direct comp.

Celtics' offense was very efficient with Theis on the floor. While not sexy, Screens matter.
Completely agree with all of that. I am not sure I want Turner at his contract. But purely from a basketball sense he offers some nice complementary skills that Theis does not. Again, I dream of 5 out... And for those who know more, how bad can Turner's perimeter D be? He was the defensive anchor on a team that had the 6th best defense in the league. If he isn't good switching, Stevens just won't switch him as much as Theis. Am I wrong?
 

E5 Yaz

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Research project suggestion:

Whose attempts at supposed big deals that never came to fruition have generated the most posts ... Danny or Theo?
 

Cellar-Door

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View: https://twitter.com/BobbyMarks42/status/1330188360862851084?s=19


I did not know this about unlikely incentives, means Indy isn't just being cheap they really need to send out money in this deal.

On the other side of it, the Celtics are losing MLE targets as time goes by.

Think this gets done today with a 3rd team more and more.

Also on McDermott, he's not some negative in the deal, it's just that he adds basically no value and is more money towards the luxury tax apron which eliminates using the non tax MLE. I think Danny rightly thinks that if he is taking salary that prevents him from using the full nontax MLE it needs to be an actual asset preferably longer term than 1 year.
 

benhogan

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Completely agree with all of that. I am not sure I want Turner at his contract. But purely from a basketball sense he offers some nice complementary skills that Theis does not. Again, I dream of 5 out... And for those who know more, how bad can Turner's perimeter D be? He was the defensive anchor on a team that had the 6th best defense in the league. If he isn't good switching, Stevens just won't switch him as much as Theis. Am I wrong?
If you stick Myles Turner on the perimeter, with a 5 wide offensive concept, the defense just sticks a nimble wing on him. Then that nimble wing torches Turner off the dribble on the other side of the floor.

Centers are fungible and situational - pay them that way and let CBS go to work mixing/matching. The C's don't need to solve Indy's biggest problem (pun intended)
 

PedroKsBambino

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If you stick Myles Turner on the perimeter, with a 5 wide offensive concept, the defense just sticks a nimble wing on him. Then that nimble wing torches Turner off the dribble on the other side of the floor.

Centers are fungible and situational - pay them that way and let CBS go to work mixing/matching. The C's don't need to solve Indy's biggest problem (pun intended)
It’s just not that simple though—three of the final four teams had plus players at Center. It does matter, even though I agree it matters less than it used to

I’m not a big Turner guy but the “5s are fungible thing is lazy and overstated
 

benhogan

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I wonder now that we're into day two of the Celtics and Indiana locked in a Hayward stalemate, and Milwaukee out of the mix, what Bogdan Bogdanovic thinks of Boston? And does Sacramento like Turner?

Something along the lines of

Indiana gets Hayward
Sacramento gets Turner and McDermott
Boston gets Bogdanovic and Bjelica
that's much better and if Sac would rather send out Holmes instead of Bjelica I'd be fine with the C's adding that dawg
 

PedroKsBambino

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Agreed Holmes is an interesting fit for Celtics. Though I think Bjelica is as well, though different profiles.

So many options out there, I worry that Hayward’s ponderous decision process will bite Celts
 

benhogan

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It’s just not that simple though—three of the final four teams had plus players at Center. It does matter, even though I agree it matters less than it used to

I’m not a big Turner guy but the “5s are fungible thing is lazy and overstated
The Lakers went with Dwight Howard/McGee at the 5 all season. Then went AD in high leverage playoff situations.
Miami started Myers Leonard all season then went Bam during the playoffs
Denver started playing Plumlee a lot less in the playoffs

Turner resembles Dwight/McGee/Leonard/Plumlee more than AD/Bam/Joker

Myles is the worst of both worlds IMO, awkward and expensive
 

Cellar-Door

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Wouldn't McDermott be what we hope Nesmith can do?
No, Nesmith is a wing who should be able to defend some and his game is running a ton like a discount JJ Reddick. McDermott is a big who can't defend anyone and is pretty static on offense
 

PedroKsBambino

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The Lakers went with Dwight Howard/McGee at the 5 all season. Then went AD in high leverage playoff situations.
Miami started Myers Leonard all season then went Bam during the playoffs
Denver started playing Plumlee a lot less in the playoffs

Turner resembles Dwight/McGee/Leonard/Plumlee more than AD/Bam/Joker

Myles is the worst of both worlds IMO, awkward and expensive
So, your point is that playing a good 5 was key to three of the four final playoff teams, precisely as I said before. You just want to say it’s not the same 5 they used earlier—which I agree with and which makes the opposite of your point. The Celtics are weaker than all those teams at 5 (guys who can play there) and (as you showed) having one matters.

Turner’s not great—and I’m not a big fan—but that’s because he’s not that impactful not because you don’t need a high impact big

My point is not that Turner’s a great answer. It’s that the reason is pretty clearly NOT that you don’t need a big, it’s that he isn’t that great a player
 

benhogan

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So, your point is that playing a good 5 was key to three of the four final playoff teams, precisely as I said before. You just want to say it’s not the same 5 they used earlier—which I agree with and which makes the opposite of your point. The Celtics are weaker than all those teams at 5, and (as you showed) having one matters.

Turner’s not great—and I’m not a big fan—but that’s because he’s not that impactful not because you don’t need a high impact big
Yes. I'm in favor of adding Bam, AD or Joker. Will those teams take Hayward for them? :rolleyes:
 

mcpickl

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Can Turner play with Bagley?
He should be able to if Sacramento liked Turner.

Turner shoots it just well enough from outside where he could be the perimeter guy on offense and post on defense and vice versa for Bagley.

Bagley barely played this year, but was more of a 5. The year before he played a lot with Willie Cauley Stein at the 5.

Sacramento just has to worry can Bagley be available to play. He's missed more than half his games his first two years.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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He should be able to if Sacramento liked Turner.

Turner shoots it just well enough from outside where he could be the perimeter guy on offense and post on defense and vice versa for Bagley.

Bagley barely played this year, but was more of a 5. The year before he played a lot with Willie Cauley Stein at the 5.

Sacramento just has to worry can Bagley be available to play. He's missed more than half his games his first two years.
I like your proposed trade for a variety of reasons but I am a pretty big Bogdanovic fan. Bjelica would be good as well.

However if McNair gets involved we are going to need flowcharts and a national accounting firm. He is a Morey disciple so he might look to play but its going to hurt everyone involved with higher transaction costs.
 
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benhogan

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So, your point is that playing a good 5 was key to three of the four final playoff teams, precisely as I said before. You just want to say it’s not the same 5 they used earlier—which I agree with and which makes the opposite of your point. The Celtics are weaker than all those teams at 5 (guys who can play there) and (as you showed) having one matters.

Turner’s not great—and I’m not a big fan—but that’s because he’s not that impactful not because you don’t need a high impact big

My point is not that Turner’s a great answer. It’s that the reason is pretty clearly NOT that you don’t need a big, it’s that he isn’t that great a player
You do know the Celtics outscored Miami in that series? and completely outplayed the Lakers when they played each other.

A healthy Kemba/Hayward and we'd get a different outcome with Miami.

Danny/Brad can figure out a way to neutralize Bam (by going cheap/fungible at the 5) without adding Myles Turner IMO. Getting rid of Kanter's defense is an admission that they are addressing it.
 
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Agreed Holmes is an interesting fit for Celtics. Though I think Bjelica is as well, though different profiles.

So many options out there, I worry that Hayward’s ponderous decision process will bite Celts
At this point, the process may be more about Ainge and Pritchard than about Hayward, who presumably has made clear his preference.
 
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