Gordon Hayward 2020: I'm standing here in pieces and you're having delusions of grandeur!

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Imbricus

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The NBA salary rules are so goddamn absurd it's comical. A couple of years ago when people wanted Danny to trade for AD, but they couldn't because Kyrie and AD got extensions on their rookie contracts and you can't have two players with rookie contract extensions that were signed on a weekday between August and November on teams east of the Rocky Mountains.
Beautiful. I was waiting for someone to say something like this.
 

Ale Xander

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Is there a way to make a Hayward S&T for Sabonis work instead of Turner?

What kind of assets would you need to give up for Indy to play ball?
Assets we can’t trade/don’t have. Sabonis is a 24 year-old 18/12/5 All Star. He is their best player and not going anywhere.
What if add Romeo (a 2nd home-state boy) and a future 1st? 2 1st?

Sabonis has a foot issue, too.
 

Imbricus

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What I don't get -- sorry if I'm missing something obvious -- but if Hayward is a free agent, and has indicated he wants to go to Indiana, what leverage do the Celtics have at this point? Why wouldn't Indiana just say "screw you" to Ainge's offers and go ahead and sign Hayward? Is there some reason related to cap/salary flexibility that Indiana would rather do the sign and trade?
 

Cesar Crespo

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What I don't get -- sorry if I'm missing something obvious -- but if Hayward is a free agent, and has indicated he wants to go to Indiana, what leverage do the Celtics have at this point? Why wouldn't Indiana just say "screw you" to Ainge's offers and go ahead and sign Hayward? Is there some reason related to cap/salary flexibility that Indiana would rather do the sign and trade?
Indiana can't afford to sign him.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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What I don't get -- sorry if I'm missing something obvious -- but if Hayward is a free agent, and has indicated he wants to go to Indiana, what leverage do the Celtics have at this point? Why wouldn't Indiana just say "screw you" to Ainge's offers and go ahead and sign Hayward? Is there some reason related to cap/salary flexibility that Indiana would rather do the sign and trade?
Only a couple teams have the actual cap space needed to sign Hayward outright, and Indy is not one of them, so they have to play ball basically.
 

Imbricus

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Indiana can't afford to sign him.
Ah. Gotcha. Cap space. So that means it's in Hayward's interest as well (if he wants to go to Indy) that the two sides be able to work out something. I'm assuming Indy can't just "dump salary" somehow to free up the space, as that seems way too easy a way to get out of bad contracts.
 

128

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Only a couple teams have the actual cap space needed to sign Hayward outright, and Indy is not one of them, so they have to play ball basically.
The Hawks were one of those teams, I believe, and they just signed Gallo to a huge deal.
 
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Sille Skrub

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Does anyone else feel like Hayward is in a terrible negotiating position here? He buys the house in Indy last year, already moves the family out and states he wants to play for the Pacers?

Unless he’s prepared to go to the Knicks, Atlanta or Charlotte, he needs Danny to do the S&T to get where he wants.
 

Cellar-Door

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The Hawks were one of those teams, I believe, and they just signed Gallo to a huge deal.
they still have enough space likely. Gallo took about half of their space

Edit- not that I think it's likely. Sounds like Hayward is either a S&T (he prefers IND but will consider others) or coming back
 

oumbi

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Does anyone else feel like Hayward is in a terrible negotiating position here? He buys the house in Indy last year, already moves the family out and states he wants to play for the Pacers?

Unless he’s prepared to go to the Knicks, Atlanta or Charlotte, he needs Danny to do the S&T to get where he wants.
Hayward will make well over $20,000,000 dollars next year regardless of where he plays. I don't consider that to be a "terrible" negotiating position.
 

Cellar-Door

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Does anyone else feel like Hayward is in a terrible negotiating position here? He buys the house in Indy last year, already moves the family out and states he wants to play for the Pacers?

Unless he’s prepared to go to the Knicks, Atlanta or Charlotte, he needs Danny to do the S&T to get where he wants.
Sure, but Danny needs him to agree to a sign and trade or the Celtics are left with nothing. Danny will get "Something" because our ability to sign and trade Hayward lets him go where he wants. If you press too hard though one of two things happens:
1. Hayward moves on and signs somewhere into cap space (he can always ask for a trade in a year)
2. IND (or other target team) decides it's cheaper to deal with a team with cap space or a TPE and clear space to sign Hayward outright
 

Van Everyman

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Washburn’s full piece is pretty interesting:

Hayward has the right to be unhappy with his situation but not the Celtics. The Boston front office and coaching staff have given him every opportunity to succeed. Injuries have been his biggest obstacle.

When he signed as a maximum free agent in 2017, he was the Celtics’ No. 1 option. The Celtics had just drafted Tatum a week before and Jaylen Brown was an athletic but flawed player coming off an uneven rookie season. Those two players catapulted to top 20 players in the NBA and then Celtics switched out Kyrie Irving (someone Hayward was looking forward to playing with) for Kemba Walker and suddenly Hayward was the fourth option.

And you could make that fifth depending on the nights when Marcus Smart gets 3-point happy. That’s not what Hayward signed on for. But when you get injured and then spend your comeback year playing tentatively and then get injured twice during the third year, you usually get passed up.
It’s understandable that Hayward was unhappy with his situation in Boston. He came here as a rising star, on the cusp of being a Top 10 player, getting All-Star nods, USA Basketball invites, and was regarded as a superstar. Instead, he’s become the Celtics’ version of a sparkplug, entering the game with the express purpose of scoring in short spurts.

He’ll never be the No. 1 option again, even if he signs an extension. NBA executives around the league are shaking their heads at Hayward rejecting the $34.2 million option during a pandemic, when the league and the world has taken a financial backslap. He opted out because he either wants to play for another team at any cost or believes there is a lucrative deal on the market that can give him a chance to reassume his role as a primary option.
 

Sille Skrub

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Sure, but Danny needs him to agree to a sign and trade or the Celtics are left with nothing. Danny will get "Something" because our ability to sign and trade Hayward lets him go where he wants. If you press too hard though one of two things happens:
1. Hayward moves on and signs somewhere into cap space (he can always ask for a trade in a year)
2. IND (or other target team) decides it's cheaper to deal with a team with cap space or a TPE and clear space to sign Hayward outright
It’s fascinating to me. It’s a game of chicken. Danny can call Gordon’s bluff and play hard ball with Indy.

OR

Gordon can give him the f you face and sign with one of the three teams with over $10mil cap space.

I think ultimately the S&T gets done with Indiana. They need each other, which is so odd to me for a free agent transaction. The NBA salary rules are wacked.
 

mcpickl

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Sure, but Danny needs him to agree to a sign and trade or the Celtics are left with nothing. Danny will get "Something" because our ability to sign and trade Hayward lets him go where he wants. If you press too hard though one of two things happens:
1. Hayward moves on and signs somewhere into cap space (he can always ask for a trade in a year)
2. IND (or other target team) decides it's cheaper to deal with a team with cap space or a TPE and clear space to sign Hayward outright
IND doesn't have a realistic way to get him without Boston.

They're about 17M over the cap right now. They'd have to move around 40M in salary to get under the cap far enough to sign Hayward.

Even moving Turner and Oladipo and taking back zero salary would leave them short.

Not too many teams with the space/exceptions to take on either/both guys. And they'd probably end up getting held up just as bad, or worse, than they think they are with Boston.
 

Cellar-Door

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IND doesn't have a realistic way to get him without Boston.

They're about 17M over the cap right now. They'd have to move around 40M in salary to get under the cap far enough to sign Hayward.

Even moving Turner and Oladipo and taking back zero salary would leave them short.

Not too many teams with the space/exceptions to take on either/both guys. And they'd probably end up getting held up just as bad, or worse, than they think they are with Boston.
yeah IND would just walk away, but word is Gordon has a list of teams he'd go to, I would guess at least one of them could dump salary to the Knicks if Danny asked for too much.

Overall though also, there is just an etiquitte with agents, eventually if Hayward wants to go and gives them a short list, Danny will make a deal happen.
 

mcpickl

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yeah IND would just walk away, but word is Gordon has a list of teams he'd go to, I would guess at least one of them could dump salary to the Knicks if Danny asked for too much.

Overall though also, there is just an etiquitte with agents, eventually if Hayward wants to go and gives them a short list, Danny will make a deal happen.
I'd guess he ends up in Indiana as well, they're just fighting over the compensation. Maybe the solution is to find a third team that likes Turner more than Boston to take him.
 

DJnVa

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I'd guess he ends up in Indiana as well, they're just fighting over the compensation. Maybe the solution is to find a third team that likes Turner more than Boston to take him.
I think Boston likes him fine. I think it’s SoSH that might not.
 

mcpickl

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I think Boston likes him fine. I think it’s SoSH that might not.
If they liked him fine, Gary Washburn reported Indiana has offered Turner and McDermott for Hayward.

Wouldn't they have already just said yes?
 

Cellar-Door

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I'd guess he ends up in Indiana as well, they're just fighting over the compensation. Maybe the solution is to find a third team that likes Turner more than Boston to take him.
I think BOS likes Turner fine. It seems like the holdup is.... what is the 2nd piece, since Indy wants to cut at least 25M... they want McDermott, Celtics want Warren. Might be as simple as getting a 3rd team to take McDermott and something else and kicking BOS a piece that BOS values somewhere between McDermott and Warren.
 

mcpickl

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I think BOS likes Turner fine. It seems like the holdup is.... what is the 2nd piece, since Indy wants to cut at least 25M... they want McDermott, Celtics want Warren. Might be as simple as getting a 3rd team to take McDermott and something else and kicking BOS a piece that BOS values somewhere between McDermott and Warren.
That doesn't sound to me like they like Turner, but don't like McDermott.

I take it as we don't like Turner, so we want a guy on a great contract in TJ Warren to take Turner off your hands.

I don't think McDermott on an expiring deal is the issue at all.
 

Swedgin

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Washburn’s full piece is pretty interesting:




His read of the market seems like a terrible take. Maybe he should spend some time in the FA Game Thread. Does anyone really think GH does not end up with salary north of 20 for multiple years?
 

Cellar-Door

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His read of the market seems like a terrible take. Maybe he should spend some time in the FA Game Thread. Does anyone really think GH does not end up with salary north of 20 for multiple years?
Honestly the whole article is dubious. It's a whole lot of psychobabble speculation without much behind it. Also.... I'd love to know what GMs were shaking their heads, because those are bad GMs.
 

luckiestman

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Cellar-Door

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Idk, 1/34 means he would need 3/66 after next year(a little less if factor NPV). If he has a good year he gets that easy, right? Seems like he values security if he takes 4/100
Depends how many games he plays. Most players value total guaranteed money locked in though for obvious reasons.
 

luckiestman

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Depends how many games he plays. Most players value total guaranteed money locked in though for obvious reasons.
I know that used to be true but then it seemed like some guys were favoring optionality. Maybe he really just wants to go home.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Woj just now on ESPN: "Hayward is talking sign and trades with several teams. New York is offering a bigger number, but on shorter years. Celtics and Pacers have gone back and forth on ideas. Another scenario that remains is Hayward re-signing in Boston."
To summarize: Nobody wants anything to do with the Knicks, Ainge and Pritchard are staring into each other's souls and Hayward, deferential dude that he is, may just accept his Washburnian fate.
 

amfox1

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My translation (with number guesses): IND is offering 4/100, NYK is offering 2/58 (and may push to 3/80 to seal the deal) but, so far, Gordo's agent hasn't gotten any other teams to throw their hats in the ring. Gordo is only re-signing in BOS as a last resort since there is no way Danny is paying anything close to IND or NYK.
 

nighthob

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That doesn't sound to me like they like Turner, but don't like McDermott.

I take it as we don't like Turner, so we want a guy on a great contract in TJ Warren to take Turner off your hands.

I don't think McDermott on an expiring deal is the issue at all.
Yeah, I’m sure they’d love Turner if he was paid appropriately, but he’s going to cost them a lot of money to keep their core together. And Pritchard is offering slop to Boston to fix his payroll problems. Philly at least paid Theo Maledon, draft rights to another player, and a first to fix their payroll. Pritchard should at least be offering some draft picks for bailing him out.
 

bankshot1

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What can Danny squeeze from the Knicks that Woj will leak that pressures Pritchard? Randle, Mitchell Robinson and picks?

Knicks are a 5th place team no matter what, Gordo or no Gordo, but they could use a name to excite the base as they win 30 games this year.
 

radsoxfan

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Because $118M in lifetime earnings doesn't constitute security?
He's got a lot of kids to feed!

In all seriousness, of course he's "secure", but these guys still want to maximize their earnings, as they should. He earned it and doesn't have many years to cash in.

If Hayward knew he had a good chance at 4/100 I can see why he would decline his option. 3/66+ is no guarantee after next season and he has seen first hand how quickly things can go sideways.
 

radsoxfan

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What can Danny squeeze from the Knicks that Woj will leak that pressures Pritchard? Randle, Mitchell Robinson and picks?

Knicks are a 5th place team no matter what, Gordo or no Gordo, but they could use a name to excite the base as they win 30 games this year.
Anything is possible but I would be pretty surprised if Hayward went through with the Knicks. Seems like its clearly Indiana #1 and he's going to push for that at all costs.

I bet he would go back to Boston over signing with the Knicks unless the $ difference is huge.
 

Cellar-Door

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What can Danny squeeze from the Knicks that Woj will leak that pressures Pritchard? Randle, Mitchell Robinson and picks?

Knicks are a 5th place team no matter what, Gordo or no Gordo, but they could use a name to excite the base as they win 30 games this year.
nothing. The Knicks is Hayward pressuring the Celtics. The Knicks have plenty of cap room to sign Hayward outright.
 

bankshot1

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Anything is possible but I would be pretty surprised if Hayward went through with the Knicks. Seems like its clearly Indiana #1 and he's going to push for that at all costs.

I bet he would go back to Boston over signing with the Knicks unless the $ difference is huge.
I'm suggesting Danny use Dolan's decades of desperation to gain some leverage to up his return with Indy.
 

Euclis20

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nothing. The Knicks is Hayward pressuring the Celtics. The Knicks have plenty of cap room to sign Hayward outright.
He's pressuring the Pacers, too. It's an odd negotiation between the three parties, with Hayward attempting to use the only leverage he has to get things moving.
 

Jimbodandy

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He's got a lot of kids to feed!

In all seriousness, of course he's "secure", but these guys still want to maximize their earnings, as they should. He earned it and doesn't have many years to cash in.

If Hayward knew he had a good chance at 4/100 I can see why he would decline his option. 3/66+ is no guarantee after next season and he has seen first hand how quickly things can go sideways.
Yeah there are few guys in the NBA who have a better idea about how the worm can turn than Hayward. He's 30 and wants to maximize his earnings for his family. And he's weighing offers from large organizations worth billions.

The difference between 1/34 and 4/100 is a fuckton of money. Who wouldn't want 66 million dollars? Who wants to bet that kind of money on a bad landing on a rebound attempt?

Yeah it's the Knicks, and everyone knows what a horror show that org is. But we should be done with judging guys for looking out for themselves. It's not like he's some fortune 500 CEO cutting himself a bonus and laying off 10K employees and firing up a few south Asian sweatshops to balance the ledger. He's picking his own employer and negotiating his pay, like we all do.
 

Euclis20

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Certainly no judgement, but I would be absolutely shocked if he plays for the Knicks. This is the same guy who just came back early from a serious ankle injury and missed the birth of his son to have a shot at an NBA title, now he's going to spend the rest of his prime playing for a team that isn't a title contender, isn't a playoff contender, and would be lucky to not finish in last place? Stranger things have happened I suppose, but I can't see it.
 

Ale Xander

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$100 million in Indianapolis goes a lot farther than the same in NYC (or Boston). Plus a smaller microscope. I don't blame him at all in pushing Indy.
 

scottyno

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My translation (with number guesses): IND is offering 4/100, NYK is offering 2/58 (and may push to 3/80 to seal the deal) but, so far, Gordo's agent hasn't gotten any other teams to throw their hats in the ring. Gordo is only re-signing in BOS as a last resort since there is no way Danny is paying anything close to IND or NYK.
Fwiw I bet the celtics would give him close to 2-58 if he would take it, that times up where he comes off the books before they have to give smart a big raise, so it locks them in to a 2 year with the core 5.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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This feels like the time where the odds are shifting to Stayward to me as well assuming there aren't any real rifts between him and the Cs.

To elaborate, NY just feels like a bad fit in so many ways so it would be a shock. At present, the only two options are for Ainge and Pritchard agreeing on what will almost certainly be a bad trade for one party given the parameters or for the Cs and Gordon to reunite.

I know all of the above could be flat out wrong but its how I see it with zero inside knowledge.
 
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scottyno

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If they kept Hayward for 2 years it's really only 1 year where they're paying insane money. Tatum will get extended, but he still is on small money this year, then next year would be the one crazy salary year with 4 huge contracts plus smart, and then after that hayward comes off the books, smart comes off the books, and maybe kemba opts out and then all you have left for big contracts is the 2 Jays.
 

lovegtm

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If they kept Hayward for 2 years it's really only 1 year where they're paying insane money. Tatum will get extended, but he still is on small money this year, then next year would be the one crazy salary year with 4 huge contracts plus smart, and then after that hayward comes off the books, smart comes off the books, and maybe kemba opts out and then all you have left for big contracts is the 2 Jays.
The problem is that you really want to get Smart back on the books when he comes off, and it will be at a higher number.

Kemba delenda est.
 
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