Gordon Hayward 2020: C'mon baby, hold together!

Imbricus

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Based on nothing concrete, my guess is that he doesn't opt-out.
I'm with WB chicken dinner on this one. I seriously doubt he opts out. Even if he were totally mercenary (which he isn't), taking a year to rebuild his value makes the most sense. We've noticed that the Hayward we have now isn't the same one we had a couple of months ago. Other teams have surely noticed as well, and most likely have serious questions about the state of that ankle. The Lakers made a long pass the other night, over his head, to a guy he was fronting on defense and I don't think he even left his feet.
 

nighthob

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What he is at this point is an efficient 3rd option. His role in Boston is only shrinking next year as Brown and Tatum continue to grow. He would literally be sacrificing a year that some contenders would place a premium value on in order to make teams factor in a sunk cost year in any free agent contract offers.
 

amarshal2

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This thread goes on and on and meanwhile Hayward is jumping better and starting to dunk in traffic. We haven’t seen him do that since Utah. All his rate stats are actually up. He hasn’t been getting to the line but his athleticism is seeming like less and less of an issue. It’s not possible to have 4 20 ppg scorers on the same team but Hayward could very well play like an All-Star caliber player the rest of the season. This whole discussion feels like it could be based on data that will feel out of date in a couple weeks, never mind seasons end.
 

lovegtm

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This thread goes on and on and meanwhile Hayward is jumping better and starting to dunk in traffic. We haven’t seen him do that since Utah. All his rate stats are actually up. He hasn’t been getting to the line but his athleticism is seeming like less and less of an issue. It’s not possible to have 4 20 ppg scorers on the same team but Hayward could very well play like an All-Star caliber player the rest of the season. This whole discussion feels like it could be based on data that will feel out of date in a couple weeks, never mind seasons end.
Great defensive game by him as well. Played a lot stronger when he got caught down in the post--he's played a lot smaller than his size/strength all year, so that was good to see.
 

Montana Fan

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What he is at this point is an efficient 3rd option. His role in Boston is only shrinking next year as Brown and Tatum continue to grow. He would literally be sacrificing a year that some contenders would place a premium value on in order to make teams factor in a sunk cost year in any free agent contract offers.
Nighthob, I generally agree with your take on Gord but at the end of the 2021 season he will have banked over $180 million. For some people, that kind of money gives them the financial freedom to do what they want to. If Gord thinks he can win a championship with Brad and the 20/21 Celts, I think he sticks around and deals with whatever contract he can get afterwards.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Based on nothing concrete, my guess is that he doesn't opt-out. Here's why.

(1). Didn't seem to me that he enjoyed the FA process.

(2) Doesn't seem to me that he'd sign to play anywhere just to get the most money.

(3) He's going to make $34M next year and he'll only be 30 after next year.

(4) Even if he does want to test the FA market, there's a good argument that he should get another year of recovery under his belt to try to recapture as much, well, success as possible. Right now GH isn't an All-Star and unless he has a show-stopping playoffs, how many teams are goingto give him max or near-max right now?

(5). Given his foot, he's still not physically right.

I don't see how entering FA market next year is going to be worse than this year, particularly if he follows the Paul George progression at all.

Plus Brad.
I think you are right that he's unlikely to opt out to test the waters in FA. I think it remains possible that he could work out an extension with the Celtics and opt out to sign it. Possible, but not likely, given what he is owed next year and the Celtics' other financial commitments.
 

bigq

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Hayward was fantastic last night with 22 points, 14 boards and 5 assists. Also notable was his team high 37 minutes. I hope that is a sign that he has returned to full health. His health is so important to how far this team goes this season. It would be unfortunate if the heavy minutes result in another round of cortisone shots and multiple games off indicating a longer term lingering health issue.
 

joe dokes

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Hayward was fantastic last night with 22 points, 14 boards and 5 assists. Also notable was his team high 37 minutes. I hope that is a sign that he has returned to full health. His health is so important to how far this team goes this season. It would be unfortunate if the heavy minutes result in another round of cortisone shots and multiple games off indicating a longer term lingering health issue.
I was thinking the same. Im hopeful that with a day off between games the worst case is a brief dip in play.
 

chilidawg

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Hayward was fantastic last night with 22 points, 14 boards and 5 assists. Also notable was his team high 37 minutes. I hope that is a sign that he has returned to full health. His health is so important to how far this team goes this season. It would be unfortunate if the heavy minutes result in another round of cortisone shots and multiple games off indicating a longer term lingering health issue.
My favorite part of the game last night was the late 3rd Q run featuring GH and the bench. He really took control of the team then, which is a role I'd like to see more of from him. I like him better than Tatum in that situation with the bench because he's a better playmaker.
 

NomarsFool

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Nighthob, I generally agree with your take on Gord but at the end of the 2021 season he will have banked over $180 million. For some people, that kind of money gives them the financial freedom to do what they want to. If Gord thinks he can win a championship with Brad and the 20/21 Celts, I think he sticks around and deals with whatever contract he can get afterwards.
I hear what you are saying, but players never act that way. Look at Tom Brady. There is no doubt in my mind that Tom Brady would be much happier playing for the Patriots for $5 million next year with a team that can afford to spend $20 million on offensive weapons. Much happier.

But instead, he's very likely to want a $25 million deal somewhere, which probably means he has a lousier team around him.

I think the only way he doesn't opt out, is if he feels extremely confident in his health, and believes he could get an even bigger deal next summer. But, given who else will be on the market then, that seems extremely risky (I don't even know the cap situation if he would get a bigger deal next summer).

But comparing a some 5 year deal at $30 million a season to some deal making $5 - $10 million is just too much to pass up for players.
 

InstaFace

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There's also feelings by some that they owe it to their union to take every dollar they can get.

I think that's a little silly in the NFL and other leagues with a hard salary cap, because there's no incremental pressure on salaries that results. But for MLB and to a lesser extent the NBA, it makes a certain amount of sense.
 

DJnVa

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From the land of made up stats--4 NBA players average at least 16 points, 6 boards, 4 assists, with en eFG% over .565: Giannis, KAT, Simmons, Hayward.
 

RedOctober3829

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I don't understand what all the handwringing is about with Hayward. His overall FG% is the highest of his career, his 3-pt percentage is the 2nd highest of his career, and he's rebounding better this year than ever. The idea of trading him is fairly stupid. You're not getting a big man for him that is good enough to make the team better than it already is than if he just stayed. If there was a time to trade him, it would be if he opts in during the offseason then you can look at offers. But, he has a ton of value to this team currently. They are being as cautious with players with injuries as they ever have and depth is required. Hayward is good enough to be an integral part of this team as it makes a playoff run.
 

lexrageorge

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I don't understand what all the handwringing is about with Hayward. His overall FG% is the highest of his career, his 3-pt percentage is the 2nd highest of his career, and he's rebounding better this year than ever. The idea of trading him is fairly stupid. You're not getting a big man for him that is good enough to make the team better than it already is than if he just stayed. If there was a time to trade him, it would be if he opts in during the offseason then you can look at offers. But, he has a ton of value to this team currently. They are being as cautious with players with injuries as they ever have and depth is required. Hayward is good enough to be an integral part of this team as it makes a playoff run.
I think some of the angst in this thread coincided with his slow return from his hand injury, which also coincided with news that he was dealing with nerve pain in his foot. And a bad game on the 2nd night of a back-to-back.

Hayward obviously will be a bit of a question mark the rest of this season, just given the reports about his foot. "Nerve pain" can have a wide range of outcomes that are not easily predicted. Maybe the foot will be fine, but we really won't know until the season is over. And he will have off nights, just like every other player. And Brad, for curious reasons, will be blamed for giving him minutes, even when Hayward does well and the team wins like against the Magic last night.

There is about a 0.001% chance of him being traded between now and the deadline; Ainge is not going to weaken this year's team by trading Hayward for wood scrap solely to satisfy the whims of message board posters gone haywire. The team as currently constructed is a contender for the Finals; maybe in the outer ring of contenders, but one nonetheless. Sometimes injuries happen to other teams as well.

There is a chance he's gone after this season for the reasons noted upthread. I don't believe it's a slam dunk he's gone, but it's a distinct possibility; I'm going to say 50/50 because that's a reasonable estimate of the odds based on what we know. One of his exit avenues could be a sign-and-trade, which would be better than letting him go for nothing.
 

RedOctober3829

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I think some of the angst in this thread coincided with his slow return from his hand injury, which also coincided with news that he was dealing with nerve pain in his foot. And a bad game on the 2nd night of a back-to-back.

Hayward obviously will be a bit of a question mark the rest of this season, just given the reports about his foot. "Nerve pain" can have a wide range of outcomes that are not easily predicted. Maybe the foot will be fine, but we really won't know until the season is over. And he will have off nights, just like every other player. And Brad, for curious reasons, will be blamed for giving him minutes, even when Hayward does well and the team wins like against the Magic last night.

There is about a 0.001% chance of him being traded between now and the deadline; Ainge is not going to weaken this year's team by trading Hayward for wood scrap solely to satisfy the whims of message board posters gone haywire. The team as currently constructed is a contender for the Finals; maybe in the outer ring of contenders, but one nonetheless. Sometimes injuries happen to other teams as well.

There is a chance he's gone after this season for the reasons noted upthread. I don't believe it's a slam dunk he's gone, but it's a distinct possibility; I'm going to say 50/50 because that's a reasonable estimate of the odds based on what we know. One of his exit avenues could be a sign-and-trade, which would be better than letting him go for nothing.
Do they need him on the roster(or do the sign-and-trade in the offseason) so they can stay an over the cap team?
 

benhogan

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There is about a 0.001% chance of him being traded between now and the deadline; Ainge is not going to weaken this year's team by trading Hayward for wood scrap solely to satisfy the whims of message board posters gone haywire.
Agreed. I'd expect Gordon Hayward will not get dealt before the trade deadline.

As far as the bolded, It's guys like Woj/Goodwill reporting the C's are interested in adding expensive frontcourt help (for GH) & Kendrick Perkins tweeting a Hayward for Adams fake deal

The most rational in the Cellar have been pretty consistent with "the Hayward situation will resolve itself this summer".
 

NomarsFool

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IF Hayward hadn't gotten hurt and continued to play like he did in October, I think there would have been a good discussion about whether trading Hayward for a big would help the overall team. Unfortunately, there just really isn't a good fit out there. There's no big that would be available that is an upgrade over what we have. We'll see what happens this summer when we trade 6 first rounders and Hayward for KAT in a S&T.
 

sezwho

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IF Hayward hadn't gotten hurt and continued to play like he did in October, I think there would have been a good discussion about whether trading Hayward for a big would help the overall team. Unfortunately, there just really isn't a good fit out there. There's no big that would be available that is an upgrade over what we have. We'll see what happens this summer when we trade 6 first rounders and Hayward for KAT in a S&T.
I would love this.
 

Gash Prex

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Hayward is breaking Mike Tiricos’s heart and shattering his world view on NBA players. Apparently Hayward doesn’t get it, whatever it is
 

DJnVa

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Or Hayward is saying that now because it still shows what a competitor Kobe is that he didn't need help, etc.

But, I think Tirico was reading way to much into it--"Oh, NBA players!!! They love the game so much!!" However, I remember Favre taking a sack to help Strahan set the sack record.
 

NomarsFool

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I didn't analyze it with a super zoom in lens, but I think he's reading into something that isn't necessarily there. Why didn't he step in the lane on the first freebie? Could've missed that one, too. If it was intentional, why did he pull his foot back? I mean, even with a blatantly intentional lane violation - obviously intentional - they would still shoot it again, right?
 

scottyno

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Since the terrible Milwaukee game where it seemed like a lot of people were ready to declare him dead, in 6 games over 11 days he's averaging 21 8 and 4 on 63% TS in 36 minutes a game. Basically fully back to the all star caliber numbers he was putting up before he hurt his hand. Sky's the limit for this team if they can be healthy in a few months.
 

amarshal2

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This thread goes on and on and meanwhile Hayward is jumping better and starting to dunk in traffic. We haven’t seen him do that since Utah. All his rate stats are actually up. He hasn’t been getting to the line but his athleticism is seeming like less and less of an issue. It’s not possible to have 4 20 ppg scorers on the same team but Hayward could very well play like an All-Star caliber player the rest of the season. This whole discussion feels like it could be based on data that will feel out of date in a couple weeks, never mind seasons end.
I feel pretty good about this inside a week. Were people watching the games or just reading a box score or two? He looks far and away the most comfortable he’s ever looked in green.
 

Over Guapo Grande

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I feel pretty good about this inside a week. Were people watching the games or just reading a box score or two? He looks far and away the most comfortable he’s ever looked in green.
I'm leaning towards the latter... the Tony Maz approach. I know it is cliche, but Heyword does so much that doesn't show up on the box-score. A 3-16 shooting night doesn't mean that he isn't helping the team in other ways.
 

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He's this year's Al Horford ... He does a little bit of everything, generally quite well. In some ways, he's better than Al and maybe on defense he's less the captain of the ship and more the first mate.
 

NomarsFool

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It certainly is encouraging. I think one of the challenges with Hayward is that when things don't go great for him, they look uglier than other players. For example, when he drives to the basket he sometimes just seems to get swallowed up, and it looks rather ugly. Or when he stops and shoots a 10 foot fadeaway (one of his staples), it looks ugly when it clangs off the back of the rim. When Tatum or Brown drives to the basket and misses a challenging looking layup, it doesn't look quite as bad. You think "At least he was taking it to the rim" or "well, it was just unlucky that he missed the layup". The end result is the same for both playing styles, nobody makes every shot, but I think Hayward just looks a bit worse when he's not successful.
 

lexrageorge

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I feel pretty good about this inside a week. Were people watching the games or just reading a box score or two? He looks far and away the most comfortable he’s ever looked in green.
It took him a few games to get back into form after returning from his hand injury, which wasn't all that minor. And then the news about nerve pain in his bionic foot rightfully had folks concerned.
 

amarshal2

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It took him a few games to get back into form after returning from his hand injury, which wasn't all that minor. And then the news about nerve pain in his bionic foot rightfully had folks concerned.
I was one of the people very concerned about the nerve pain. But watching him in January you could see his athleticism back even as he missed shots.
 

Sam Ray Not

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Out of curiosity, if GS were to execute a sign-trade involving DLo and a third team to try to slot Hayward in with Steph, Klay & Draymond, what kind of a package would you be looking for from that third team? Would, say, MitchRob + Randle + Knicks picks or Covington + Dieng + Wolves picks have any appeal?

Can't speak for Bob Myers, but to me a new Death Lineup of Steph-Klay-Hayward-Iguodala-Green, or normal-sized lineup of Steph-Klay-Hayward-Green + (Derrick Favors or Marc Gasol) would rock.
 

DJnVa

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The fact that he becomes more ALPHA when Tatum isn't there tells me that the games with Tatum there, where some folks here lament the loss of Utah Hayward, are more by design.
 

benhogan

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I feel pretty good about this inside a week. Were people watching the games or just reading a box score or two? He looks far and away the most comfortable he’s ever looked in green.
The further he gets away from that horrific injury the better. He'll continue to improve this season.

NBA media trade speculation in regards to Hayward for Love, Drummond, or Adams was/is downright silly. Danny would have to be a complete moron to entertain them with the play they received at the 5 from Theis/Kanter.

This team will be a tough playoff out as Utah Gordon continues to re-appear and the Jays mature.

The Hayward situation (opt-out? opt-in? discounted extension? S&T?) will play out this summer.
 
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NomarsFool

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One of my friends is a life-time Hayward fan, and a bit by co-incidence, not much of a fan of Tatum. He continually argues with me that Tatum and Hayward can't co-exist on the basketball court because Hayward's game is all about ball movement, drives to the basket or catch and shoot, and Tatum's game is more iso-hero ball type stuff. Personally, I think it's good to have both skill sets available to you.
 

lovegtm

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One of my friends is a life-time Hayward fan, and a bit by co-incidence, not much of a fan of Tatum. He continually argues with me that Tatum and Hayward can't co-exist on the basketball court because Hayward's game is all about ball movement, drives to the basket or catch and shoot, and Tatum's game is more iso-hero ball type stuff. Personally, I think it's good to have both skill sets available to you.
Yeah, your friend is hilariously wrong. Tatum and Hayward are +13.0 together in substantial minutes, and Tatum flows well in the offense when playing with the first unit.
 

benhogan

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Out of curiosity, if GS were to execute a sign-trade involving DLo and a third team to try to slot Hayward in with Steph, Klay & Draymond, what kind of a package would you be looking for from that third team? Would, say, MitchRob + Randle + Knicks picks or Covington + Dieng + Wolves picks have any appeal?

Can't speak for Bob Myers, but to me a new Death Lineup of Steph-Klay-Hayward-Iguodala-Green, or normal-sized lineup of Steph-Klay-Hayward-Green + (Derrick Favors or Marc Gasol) would rock.
After the Celtics raise banner 18 this summer, Gordon gets caught up in the euphoria and signs a deeply discounted deal. He claims that loyalty to Brad, the comfort his family feels in New England, already has generational wealth and his inability to live up to his contract the first two seasons drove him to sign on the cheap. #Green4ever

Then I wake up.

Both fake trades would be very reasonable returns for the C's. While we're in fantasy land, I'd like to see if they could extract a guy like John Collins from the Hawks by adding to D Lo OR bang on the Pels door asking for JJ/Hayes so they could add to their ex-Laker draft stock.
 

lovegtm

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After the Celtics raise banner 18 this summer, Gordon gets caught up in the euphoria and signs a deeply discounted deal. He claims that loyalty to Brad, the comfort his family feels in New England, already has generational wealth and his inability to live up to his contract the first two seasons drove him to sign on the cheap. #Green4ever

Then I wake up.

Both fake trades would be very reasonable returns for the C's. While we're in fantasy land, I'd like to see if they could extract a guy like John Collins from the Hawks by adding to D Lo OR bang on the Pels door asking for JJ/Hayes so they could add to their ex-Laker draft stock.
Yeah, barring the discounted Hayward deal, any deal that involves a young depth big, defense+shooting wing is good, picks are a bonus. Goal would be to rebalance roster slightly while adding more contracts that match well in trades.
 

benhogan

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Yeah, your friend is hilariously wrong. Tatum and Hayward are +13.0 together in substantial minutes, and Tatum flows well in the offense when playing with the first unit.
Ha. Tatum is, by far, Haywards' most efficient partner out of all the starters.

Tatum is probably the Celtics' best player now and when he adds more strength he'll be a top 10 NBA player within 2 seasons (Kobe absence aside :oops: )

 

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Out of curiosity, if GS were to execute a sign-trade involving DLo and a third team to try to slot Hayward in with Steph, Klay & Draymond, what kind of a package would you be looking for from that third team? Would, say, MitchRob + Randle + Knicks picks or Covington + Dieng + Wolves picks have any appeal?

Can't speak for Bob Myers, but to me a new Death Lineup of Steph-Klay-Hayward-Iguodala-Green, or normal-sized lineup of Steph-Klay-Hayward-Green + (Derrick Favors or Marc Gasol) would rock.
Your shameless trolling is shameless.
 

Red Averages

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I can't think of another athlete where in the span of a week the majority of the board (not all!) shift in sentiment from this guy is a negative that we can't dump and we're screwed to oh my god if he keeps this up he's going to opt out and we're screwed. If we smooth it all out, he's probably where most of us hoped his upside was coming back from the major injury. If he's going to keep improving then we should definitely get excited. I'm just so happy this team is back to being so fun to watch that I pull up a laptop to stream games even if I'm doing something else. Such a big difference as a fan from where we were at the end of last season and beginning of the off-season.
 

TripleOT

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I recently posted that I was out on Hayward, because of the inconsistency, which is probably health related, and because he was out to injury a lot. I absolutely love the idea of healthy, fully engaged GH, especially in the style of today's NBA, but figured if his on again/off again act was going to continue, and there was a good chance he was going to opt out and head elsewhere in the summer, that making a move now to balance out the roster a bit better would be wise.

The theory was that the Jays could pick up the wing scoring with more attempts, with a lunchpail wing filling in the rest of the wing minutes, hitting some threes, and playing solid defense. Whatever big that came in return could protect the rim, score, and grab boards. That change would allow the Cs to play bigger when necessary, but still have a solid small lineup with JB, JT, Kemba, Smart, and a big.

I don't think that's too flawed an idea, assuming a decent big was available, although I don't particularly like the idea of going big on the roster while the league trend is going the other way.

If Hayward is going to play an engaged style, where he makes a conscious effort to get into the lane with the ball a dozen times a game, and can stay healthy, I'm all in on him. If he's healthy enough to play, but is going to stand around in the corner, I'm out. That's not him, that's not his game, and it's a waste of his talents.

Hopefully, Stevens will be able to finally figure out how to get all three wings to play at 100% in the same game on a consistent basis. The Celtics will then be able to beat any team in the playoffs.
 

NomarsFool

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I'd still argue that in an ideal world, the Celtics would have a different roster construction with a big as equally talented as Hayward out on the floor to close out games. It's just a shame that under usual circumstances, I don't think the Celtics 5 best players are all on the floor at the same time as usually they want to have Theis/Kanter on the floor. If there was an equally talented big, that would be a better roster construction.

But, there just doesn't seem to be anyone out there that would be a good fit and a reasonable trade situation. So, we'll see how far this group will go and I'll be really interested to see how they close out games in the playoffs.
 

Sam Ray Not

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I can't think of another athlete where in the span of a week the majority of the board (not all!) shift in sentiment from this guy is a negative that we can't dump and we're screwed to oh my god if he keeps this up he's going to opt out and we're screwed.
Hmmm.... David Price ca. October 2018?
 

Jimbodandy

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I can't think of another athlete where in the span of a week the majority of the board (not all!) shift in sentiment from this guy is a negative that we can't dump and we're screwed to oh my god if he keeps this up he's going to opt out and we're screwed. If we smooth it all out, he's probably where most of us hoped his upside was coming back from the major injury. If he's going to keep improving then we should definitely get excited. I'm just so happy this team is back to being so fun to watch that I pull up a laptop to stream games even if I'm doing something else. Such a big difference as a fan from where we were at the end of last season and beginning of the off-season.
Certainly GH playing better lately has swung the pendulum. There are other complications as well.

If you think that GH will opt out and leave, you may be worried about getting nothing for him. Or if you're worried about him opting out and resigning, AND listening to the luxury tax talk, maybe you're worried that GH at another max creates a situation where ownership has to move someone that we don't want to move and would rather trade him for something that fits the salary structure better.

Fundamentally a lot of it comes down to whether you think that the Cs are legit championship contenders or at least conference championship ones. For me it's No and Maybe, which makes looking at next year without GH more palatable. If I were closer on the 2020 or bust end of the continuum, I'd loathe the idea of trading him.
 
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benhogan

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I'd still argue that in an ideal world, the Celtics would have a different roster construction with a big as equally talented as Hayward out on the floor to close out games. It's just a shame that under usual circumstances, I don't think the Celtics 5 best players are all on the floor at the same time as usually they want to have Theis/Kanter on the floor. If there was an equally talented big, that would be a better roster construction.

But, there just doesn't seem to be anyone out there that would be a good fit and a reasonable trade situation. So, we'll see how far this group will go and I'll be really interested to see how they close out games in the playoffs.
I was in your camp this past summer (wanted Danny to try and add Turner or Sabonis) but my position has evolved.

Who is the 5 equally as talented as Hayward? and what will their value be at season's end compared to Gordon, when Danny needs to make roster decisions? As far as future roster construction I think you'll find Hayward will retain his value much more than a 5.

Basically 100% of the 2020 free agent Centers: Favors, Gasol, Tristen Thompson, Ibaka, Biyombo, Mahinmi, Plumlee, Drummond, Whiteside will see pay cuts in a talentless free-agent market. No thanks on Love, Adams, Dieng, Dedmon or Aldridge.

As far as this season, aren't we fine at the 5 with Theis/Kanter? I think they hold their own or even create mismatches under certain instances. Adding cheap 5 depth makes sense due to TL's health history and VP being a rookie. But avoid the high priced centers at all costs.
 
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