Gordon Hayward 2018-2019: I find your lack of faith disturbing.

moondog80

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I'm using your words here--but if every game was 8 of 11 and 6 of 7 from three, then of course he's a max player.
I think he meant plays the exact same game but has a more normal success rate with his shots.
 

DrewDawg

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I think he meant plays the exact same game but has a more normal success rate with his shots.
His normal? And then factor in his normal rebounding and passing?

I jut don't get the point. It's clear that while he's still inconsistent, he is getting closer. And he's been more aggressive lately, whether or not it was noticeable in one game last night or not. And, I think it was. It's one thing to drive into the paint against a regular NBA team. It's another to do it with Embiid there. And I do know he drove right at him once.
 

the moops

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It's one thing to drive into the paint against a regular NBA team. It's another to do it with Embiid there. And I do know he drove right at him once.
That drive against Embiid to draw the foul was perhaps the single most encouraging thing I have seen from him all season.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I'm using your words here--but if every game was 8 of 11 and 6 of 7 from three, then of course he's a max player.
If he hits 6-7 every night, he's not only a max player, he's the greatest player who ever lived. :)

Although according to this article, he's hitting 58% from 3P over his last seven games.

One thing about his usage. Whether it's because opponents don't think he's healed sufficiently or they are picking their poison, the majority of the 3Ps he has gotten this year have been open to wide open. According to NBAstats.com, he has shot 1 3Ps with a defender between 0-2 feet away (he made it); 4 3Ps with the defender 2-4 feet away; 48 shots with the defender 4-6 feet away (he's shooting 25% on those); and 134 shots (or 71.6%) are wide open and he's only shooting 36.6% on these.

We know he can hit these. Last night's game was really encouraging. He gets great looks at the basket.
 

InstaFace

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Pretty much the one skill of his that got an appropriate amount of practice last year was his 3 Pt shooting. It was like all he did for the 6 months between returning to walking and being able to actually run and cut.
 

Reardons Beard

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Hayward unequivocally had his best game as a Boston Celtic last night and it wasn't even close. Occasional flashes thus far but nothing nearly as complete as what we saw in Philadelphia. He looked confident, poised, and comfortable. Most importantly as I noted in the game thread he looked at least a full step faster than anything we had seen thus far in Boston. The win was exciting given the stakes and the opponent, as is the interesting though sometimes vapid discussion on "better with or without Kyrie," but to me seeing Hayward play at that level was the biggest takeaway last night.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Using game score as an imperfect measure, seven of his top performances have come from December through this month. It lines up with the appearance that he is improving, in fits and starts, as the season moves along.
 

chilidawg

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I thought his defense was the most physical I've seen, which is a good sign because he's looked soft on D most of the season. He got toasted on his first defensive possession (Harris I think), but then picked it up and had a solid game.
 

Jimbodandy

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Yeah he was all over the place on defense, moving the ball well, taking the right shot, etc. I can't fathom watching that game and not seeing a max player. He was by far the best player on either team last night on both ends, and it wasn't very close.

Of course judging a guy's maxness from one game is silly, but that's a separate issue.
 

RetractableRoof

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I've refrained from posting in the thread before now because I had no realistic idea what to expect from Haywire this year - and still don't to be honest. I'm encouraged by last night and a couple more recent games by the way he has been on the defensive end. I thing I read somewhere that the offense would come back before the defense in a long term major injury recovery. Last night (maybe celtic colored glasses?) the ball seemed to be finding him on defense - the same way it seems to find Smart. He seemed to be in the right lanes at the right moment to make his guy work that little bit harder, or get his hands on a ball. I'm trying to remain even keeled, but it was nice to see a defensive presence from him.
 

Red Averages

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Another encouraging night from Hayward, on a back-back as well. Let’s hope the week off allows him to keep regaining some of his explosiveness he seems to be unleashing more of.

Would love to see him in the starting 5 again. Separately, the lineups where he is playing the point offer a ton of potential.
 

NomarsFool

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Yes, back to back good games. I didn't think he seemed quite as sharp in the second half - understandable on a back to back. But, I really liked that he seemed to be driving to the basket almost every single time he touched the ball.
 

Koufax

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Fair enough. But that hot shooting comes and goes. What I meant was that if he is nothing more than a 3-point sharpshooter, he's not a max guy. Of course that ignores his overall feel for the game, which seems very good, but to be a max player he needs bursts of the athleticism that he had in Utah and that, God willing, he will regain here.
 

Koufax

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Agree that he was more aggressive tonight. Yeah, the whole game got sloppy towards the end but his play tonight gave me hope.

I was there tonight. It was a very entertaining first half. The second half, not so much. First Detroit checked out, then Boston checked out, then I checked out.
 

azsoxpatsfan

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He has 63 on 30 shots over the last three games (19 makes). Overall in February he’s shooting 56.4% from the floor and 55.6% from 3.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Fair enough. But that hot shooting comes and goes. What I meant was that if he is nothing more than a 3-point sharpshooter, he's not a max guy. Of course that ignores his overall feel for the game, which seems very good, but to be a max player he needs bursts of the athleticism that he had in Utah and that, God willing, he will regain here.
It seems clear that he is on an upward path, though, which is what matters. It's still going to take time to see where he ends up. For now, it is enough to know that he is notably better than he was a month ago.
 

lovegtm

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Another encouraging night from Hayward, on a back-back as well. Let’s hope the week off allows him to keep regaining some of his explosiveness he seems to be unleashing more of.

Would love to see him in the starting 5 again. Separately, the lineups where he is playing the point offer a ton of potential.
Agree regarding the lineups. They really need to look at just giving Terry's minutes to Hayward, Smart, and Brown. It totally changes the team.

The team is at serious risk of imploding if they don't do everything they can to optimize for wins, and force-feeding Rozier minutes goes against that.
 

Jimbodandy

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Agree regarding the lineups. They really need to look at just giving Terry's minutes to Hayward, Smart, and Brown. It totally changes the team.

The team is at serious risk of imploding if they don't do everything they can to optimize for wins, and force-feeding Rozier minutes goes against that.
If Brad just forces Rozier to earn his minutes with some effort on the defensive end, we could live with some forced shots. He can be a positive player even off the bench imo, as long as he takes both ends of the court seriously.
 

lostjumper

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Watching Hayward drive to the hoop right at the start last night for the up and under layup was great. He couldn't do that at the beginning of the season.
 

joe dokes

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Agree regarding the lineups. They really need to look at just giving Terry's minutes to Hayward, Smart, and Brown. It totally changes the team.

The team is at serious risk of imploding if they don't do everything they can to optimize for wins, and force-feeding Rozier minutes goes against that.
I dont know about the "seriously imploding" part, but until very recently, *planning* to give anyone's minutes to Hayward was a dicey proposition, given his inconsistency. The ASB comes at a good time to consider Hayward going forward as at least consistently useful.
 

DrewDawg

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We all know Game Score is a very rough metric, but it does show something. Last night was #4 on his list this season and 3 of his top 7 have come in the last 9 days.

Now a week off to recharge. Can't wait for that Milwaukee game.
 

benhogan

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Agree regarding the lineups. They really need to look at just giving Terry's minutes to Hayward, Smart, and Brown. It totally changes the team.

The team is at serious risk of imploding if they don't do everything they can to optimize for wins, and force-feeding Rozier minutes goes against that.
agreed.

A lot of Hayward's health questions were answered with Gordon playing effectively in a back-to-back. Brad needs to make changes to minutes/rotations.

I came into the season very bullish on Terry as a valued member of the 2nd unit and Kyrie Insurance. I got it wrong. Rozier has not adapted well to his bench role and we have better options for Kyrie Ins.

In Kyrie's absence, the offense can be run through Smart, Horford or Hayward. The offense stagnates with Terry pounding the ball and constantly calling off high pick and rolls. When Brad started playing Smart @PG with MaMo, Hayward, Brown, Tatum, Horford (a bigger lineup) in the Sixers game it created mismatches and led to a few physical post-ups on TJ and JJ. This adds more offensive options for the Celtics.

In addition to the offensive benefits of sitting Rozier, there is no reason to pair up Terry & Kyrie when other teams go small. Defensively Smart, Brown and Tatum are more than capable of covering guards.

When the team is fully healthy, Terry should be relegated to #9/10 in the rotation, and play less than 15mpg. I'm skeptical Brad will do this, but with 30% of the regular season left he needs to start making some shrewd decisions with minutes/rotations.
 
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DrewDawg

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Terry should be relegated ~15mpg (#9 or 10 in the rotation). I'm skeptical Brad will do this, but with 30% of the regular season left he needs to start making some shrewd decisions with minutes/rotations.
Brad has already started to do this. Terry's minutes have been cut since the beginning of the season. Looking at his average minutes is confusing in the sense that he gets random starts here and there.

In his first 21 games this season he didn't start, he was under 20 minutes in just 8 of them (38%). By way of contrast, in the last 10 games he did not start (excusing the Clippers game), he's been under 20 minutes in 8 of them (80%).

I know you want to go lower, but his minutes have trended downward.
 
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benhogan

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But Brad has already done this. Terry's minutes have been cut since the beginning of the season. Looking at his average minutes is confusing in the sense that he gets random starts here and there.

In the last 10 games he did not start (excusing the Clippers game), he's been under 20 minutes in 8 of them. I know you want to go lower, but his minutes have trended downward.
yea, you're kind of right. Kyrie injuries have distorted Rozier mpg all season long. My main thesis is whatever minutes handed to Rozier should be going to others in the rotation. If he gets a DNP (as Theis has before), I'm fine with that.
 

DrewDawg

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Worth noting that 2 weeks ago, there was this same discussion, but in addition to Rozier, it was also about cutting Hayward's minutes :)
 

benhogan

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Worth noting that 2 weeks ago, there was this same discussion, but in addition to Rozier, it was also about cutting Hayward's minutes :)
The situation is definitely evolving, that's why I added the Hayward health disclaimer. I think lovegtm made a good point about fine-tuning the rotations. I've been more than outspoken about Brad going small too often:rolleyes: and I see Rozier as part of that problem.
 

lovegtm

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The situation is definitely evolving, that's why I added the Hayward health disclaimer. I think lovegtm made a good point about fine-tuning the rotations. I've been more than outspoken about Brad going small too often:rolleyes: and I see Rozier as part of that problem.
Yeah, generally I'm in favor of not over-reacting, but there's also a time for decisiveness. Hayward's improving confidence/health/performance, the availability of AD, and the need to keep Kyrie happy are all new factors that the team needs to optimize heavily around in the next couple months.

It sucks for Terry Rozier, because I think he'd be a solid contributor in the right situation, but this team frankly is at too much of a crossroads to worry about that.
 

Red Averages

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I think what we saw in the playoffs was much more match up oriented. "Playoff Brad" if you will...

I'm confident he'll put the best team forward as we get closer to the playoffs. If we reacted like this board wanted constantly, we'd never have Hayward where he is today.

I'm very interested to see how Brad handles Mil. Does Semi get more minutes, like he did in the playoffs?
 

Big John

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It sucks for Terry Rozier, because I think he'd be a solid contributor in the right situation, but this team frankly is at too much of a crossroads to worry about that.
Rozier wasn't missed last night. Wanamaker played a decent 14 minutes and Ojeleye also played well. Smart played only 32 minutes.
 

RedOctober3829

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I think what we saw in the playoffs was much more match up oriented. "Playoff Brad" if you will...

I'm confident he'll put the best team forward as we get closer to the playoffs. If we reacted like this board wanted constantly, we'd never have Hayward where he is today.

I'm very interested to see how Brad handles Mil. Does Semi get more minutes, like he did in the playoffs?
I've been pro-Hayward all year long. Others wanted him buried on the bench and I've constantly said you need to play him in order for him to round into form and it's paid off. He's looking as good as he has all year in the last 2-3 weeks especially this week. Just keep piling on the positive games and be consistent in these performances instead of 1-2 good games and 3-4 mediocre ones.
 

lovegtm

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I think what we saw in the playoffs was much more match up oriented. "Playoff Brad" if you will...

I'm confident he'll put the best team forward as we get closer to the playoffs. If we reacted like this board wanted constantly, we'd never have Hayward where he is today.

I'm very interested to see how Brad handles Mil. Does Semi get more minutes, like he did in the playoffs?
I've been very much in the camp of patience, and totally understand the reasons for giving Rozier his minutes this year. The availability of AD and the current chemistry issues add some urgency, however.
 

benhogan

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I've been pro-Hayward all year long. Others wanted him buried on the bench and I've constantly said you need to play him in order for him to round into form and it's paid off. He's looking as good as he has all year in the last 2-3 weeks especially this week. Just keep piling on the positive games and be consistent in these performances instead of 1-2 good games and 3-4 mediocre ones.
I'm not sure anyone around here wanted Gordon Hayward "buried" on the bench?

I wanted his court time to build up slowly throughout the season with the hope that he'd be healthy by All-Star break. And I'm not sure starting him day 1, playing him on back-to-backs or forcing big minutes before Jan.1 did him or the team any favors. BUT here we are. Looks like he's not fully "Utah Gordon" but he has carved out an important niche on this team. Rotating him in between the 2nd unit and closing group, in lieu of Rozier, will make the team better. Those calling for Hayward or Brown to start are being foolish IMHO since MaMo and Smart add some physicality to an already undersized group.
 

RedOctober3829

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I'm not sure anyone around here wanted Gordon Hayward "buried" on the bench?

I wanted his court time to build up slowly throughout the season with the hope that he'd be healthy by All-Star break. And I'm not sure starting him day 1, playing him on back-to-backs or forcing big minutes before Jan.1 did him or the team any favors. BUT here we are. Looks like he's not fully "Utah Gordon" but he has carved out an important niche on this team. Rotating him in between the 2nd unit and closing group, in lieu of Rozier, will make the team better. Those calling for Hayward or Brown to start are being foolish IMHO since MaMo and Smart add some physicality to an already undersized group.
Some wanted his minutes drastically reduced. I don't know how to take that other than to bury him on the bench. If he continues to play like he did this week, yes he deserves to start. You can leave Smart at the 2 for the reason you laid out, but I believe that if Morris continues his cold shooting then Hayward should start.
 
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azsoxpatsfan

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Since January 1 Morris is averaging 13 points on 43.5% (35.4% 3pt) with 6 rebounds and 1.35 assists in 28 minutes per game. Hayward is averaging 12.5 points on 50% (38% 3pt) with 4.1 rebounds and 3.5 assists in 25.2 minutes per game. Morris was +6.4 per 200 possessions in January and +0.7 per 200 in February. Gordon was -2.2 per 200 in January and +17.4 per 200 in February. I agree that Smart should stay start because he's so important in so many hard to quantify ways, but I think they have to consider moving Hayward into the starting five over Morris if he continues improving and Morris doesn't regain his 45% 3pt that he had for the first three months of the season.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Some wanted his minutes drastically reduced. I don't know how to take that other than to bury him on the bench. If he continues to play like he did this week, yes he deserves to start. You can leave Smart at the 2 for the reason you left, but I believe that if Morris continues his cold shooting then Hayward should start.
I don't recall who it was nor do I think they were entirely serious. However some poster(s) suggested that Hayward be sent to the G League. And there were others who were definitely in the bench or shut-him-down camp.

Hot takes are fun but they don't age well.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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joe dokes

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Since January 1 Morris is averaging 13 points on 43.5% (35.4% 3pt) with 6 rebounds and 1.35 assists in 28 minutes per game. Hayward is averaging 12.5 points on 50% (38% 3pt) with 4.1 rebounds and 3.5 assists in 25.2 minutes per game. Morris was +6.4 per 200 possessions in January and +0.7 per 200 in February. Gordon was -2.2 per 200 in January and +17.4 per 200 in February. I agree that Smart should stay start because he's so important in so many hard to quantify ways, but I think they have to consider moving Hayward into the starting five over Morris if he continues improving and Morris doesn't regain his 45% 3pt that he had for the first three months of the season.
MM was always unlikely to shoot 45% from 3 for even a majority of the season. As is nearly every NBA player.
 

Red Averages

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Decent (but not great) breakdown of GH's game vs PHI here: https://www.celticsblog.com/2019/2/13/18222938/gordon-hayward-takes-another-step-forward-vs-sixers-boston-celtics-nba-Philadelphia

One nugget from the article: "On 59 possessions against Philadelphia, Hayward held his match ups to just 9 total points."

Some people may have forgotten that GH did a credible job against KD in the playoffs when he was with the Jazz. Getting 85% of that back would be huge. 95% would be unbelievable.
Wonder if he could handle Giannis (cuts into my theory that Semi is going to be a big focus of any Bucks series). This Bucks game next week is going to be fascinating to see how they play it.
 

DrewDawg

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Good point in that article that when Hayward's outside shot isn't falling, and it wasn't earlier this season, the defense sags a bit, which means the aggressive drives we all want to see are harder to pull off. As he's started to heat up from deep, we're also seeing him be more aggressive taking the ball to the hole.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Agree regarding the lineups. They really need to look at just giving Terry's minutes to Hayward, Smart, and Brown. It totally changes the team.
Yes! Remember, this is what the playoffs looked like last year. (Terry getting Kyrie's minutes, of course, but Smart and Brown getting most of the minutes that would have gone to Terry.)
 

lovegtm

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Yes! Remember, this is what the playoffs looked like last year. (Terry getting Kyrie's minutes, of course, but Smart and Brown getting most of the minutes that would have gone to Terry.)
Yeah, these Celtics are at their best when their identity is being long, physical, playing their defense, and exploiting size matchups on offense.

Kyrie fits into that fine because he's a great player, but Kyrie+Rozier takes away a lot of that identity.

The key is that Brad has to be comfortable with Gordon or Smart being the guy to bring the ball up the floor. We saw last night that Brad is also aware of this, and they're going to try it out.
 

benhogan

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BigJohn wanted to replace all his minutes with Semi.
BigJohn is the ultimate outlier....even Dershowitz would struggle to defend most of his suggestions

Back to reality, this is awesome news:
And on top of that, Hayward said he's staying in Boston for the All-Star break so he can continue to put some more work in.

 
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