Goodnight Sweet Prince: Mark Sanchez Retires
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$74 million in career earnings. We should all be so mediocre. Patron saint of those who fail upwards.
I will never ever forget the beer coming out of my nose as I was hysterically laughing while Steve Gregory ran to paydirt.
I’d like to hear from someone who knows about QB play why he declined. Because although he was never excellent, he certainly was good enough early career. Which is interesting because Pete Carroll, maybe selfishly, warned him about coming out early, yet early career was when he enjoyed some success.
Did the League catch on to him? If certain aspects of his game declined, which? Is it mainly mental?
I’m disinclined to write off his early success to Rex Ryan’s defense. He may never have been more that a Jim Harbaugh replacement level QB, but for a few years he was at least that.
What happened? Thanks.
Did the League catch on to him? If certain aspects of his game declined, which? Is it mainly mental?
I’m disinclined to write off his early success to Rex Ryan’s defense. He may never have been more that a Jim Harbaugh replacement level QB, but for a few years he was at least that.
What happened? Thanks.
He was never good. Even in the seasons where they reached the AFC championship game he completed just over 50% of his passes and threw more INTs than TDs
I don't know why you're disinclined. It definitely looks to me that Sanchez' "success" was the product of excellent Ryan defenses. In Sanchez' first season, the Jets were an OK 18th in points per drive and 22nd in yards per drive. But they were dead last in pass attempts and #1 in rush attempts, #1 in both points and yards allowed per drive, ran for 4.5 YPC, and had the second-best average offensive starting field position in football. 2010 was a similar story: 20th in points and 16th in yards per drive, but keyed by 4.4 YPC on the second-most attempts and the second-best starting field position. In 2011 the surface stats are similar in all areas, but the team finished 20th in scoring D because Jets opponents had a whopping seven(!) defensive touchdowns. In 2012 the D fell off a little; with only average starting field position, the O finished 30th in points and yards per drive, and they allowed another six D / ST TDs and fell to 6-10.
Here are 3 number 26, 27, 39 what are these? Sacks.
He went 4-4 for the Eagles and put up decent statistics and this is post being ruined by Rex.
Sanchez was no superstar, but he played well in big games. His o coordinator was shit (ask Seattle fans). Then they hire Sporano and it was a fucking train wreck. The owner sucked, the HC sucked (as a HC), the GM sucked(without Eric), the o coord sucked. I have no problems with Sanchez. He played hard and showed up big in the playoffs. He is remembered for an embarrassing play. That’s fine.
He went 4-4 for the Eagles and put up decent statistics and this is post being ruined by Rex.
Sanchez was no superstar, but he played well in big games. His o coordinator was shit (ask Seattle fans). Then they hire Sporano and it was a fucking train wreck. The owner sucked, the HC sucked (as a HC), the GM sucked(without Eric), the o coord sucked. I have no problems with Sanchez. He played hard and showed up big in the playoffs. He is remembered for an embarrassing play. That’s fine.
I have no idea what point you're trying to make with these sack numbers.
That he had poor pocket presence? That he had great pocket presence? That he had a poor O-line? That he had a great O-line?
In 2009 (the first year you cite) the Jets gave up 30 sacks which was 10th fewest in the league. 2010 they gave up 28 total, 8th fewest in the league. 2011 was 40 total, and they dropped to 20th just a few spots outside of average in the NFL.
FWIW, Jerod Mayo said on a podcast last year that Sanchize was famous for repeatedly misidentifying who the "Mike" LB was when the Pats played the Jets.
Because nobody should be talking about Rex Ryan defenses in the same breath as the 2000 Ravens or “85 Bears — and because Sanchez failed miserably most recently as a 4th stringer in Washington. Fourth string. He literally cannot play, and 32 is not old for QBs.
Stick the current Sanchez on those Rex Ryan defense teams, and they fail miserably too. I think there is something else at play.
I don't think anyone is saying the '09-'10 Jets are the '85 Bears or '00 Ravens, but they were just a notch below. The '09 Jets allowed 1.02 points per drive - that's better than any of the Legion of Boom defenses or the 2015 Broncos or any of the Belichick Patriots defenses. They just - stop me if you've heard this one before - allowed 7 return touchdowns that make their overall points allowed look not as impressive.
It is not unusual to see QBs wash up at 32. Cutler had his last decentish season at 32, got hurt the next year, retired, came back, was awful, and retired again at 34. Matt Schaub was decent at 31, fell off a cliff at 32, and has been a backup since. Marc Bulger had his last good year at 29 and was out of football at 32. Daunte Culpepper's last good year was 27 and he was done at 32. I don't know why you think Sanchez' pattern is unusual, especially since he was never particularly good in the first place.
With the full benefit of hindsight, I think it's pretty clear that a) Sanchez was buoyed early in his career by running game and field position (defense and special teams), b) he did not improve significantly from his early career, and c) when his supporting cast diminished, he was exposed entirely. He completed a poor percentage of his passes and threw too many interceptions basically his whole career.
IIRC, didn't the '09 and '10 Jets teams have really uncommon and unsustainable fumble luck? I remember reading Barnwell at the time and he was pretty adamant that the Jets success recovering fumbles was not sustainable since fumbles are generally 50/50 balls and the Jets were recovering them at a much higher rate.
I haven't seen a single post in this thread claiming that defense was comparable to the two you cited. Could you link me?
As for there having to be something else at play, there's substantial data around QB peak, and Super Nomario touched on some recent cases.
http://www.footballperspective.com/quarterback-age-curves/
I would assume that as the age rises, there is more of a chance for an outlier to fuck up the data since being a 37-40 year old QB puts you in select company. Ditto for 21 year olds.
It looks like the 2010 group might have - 25 opponents fumbles, 18 recovered by the Jets. That helps, but they also held opponents to 5.6 yards per dropback and 3.6 YPC, so it's not like a smoke-and-mirrors unit (like, say, the 2010 Pats, who finished second in the NFL with 38 takeaways, which disguised their 30th in yards per drive D).
Poetic license on the defensive comps.
The fact remains that he was good enough for a while, leading the Jets to two AFC Championship games his first two seasons, the first after an admittedly sub-par regular season. And while one could point to a shoulder injury in 2013, he overcame that to post a very respectable season in Philadelphia.
He was never “all that” but he was a decent period good enough. I am not shocked by the retirement. I was shocked by a good close up view of him last season.
He did not eat, drink or drug his way out of the League (e.g., Culpepper) nor was he beaten to a pulp.
I’ll accept that he never improved, and that teams caught on to him.
He laid down his best work early, which make Carroll’s criticism of his leaving college early a bit ironic.
Wasn’t there a year or two when Sanchez had incredible luck with defenders dropping potential interceptions?
Forgotten in the Butt-fumble proper is the Jetsy sequence surrounding it:
In the prior Pats possession, Shane Vereen had scored an 83 yard TD after the vaunted Rexy defense got confused about who was covering the RB out of the backfield. It was a beautiful play -- presnap, Brady sees Vereen uncovered, after the snap. Brady stares down Welker in the middle of the field to freeze the defense, then lofts the ball over to a wide-open Vereen in stride. Dude collected like 70 YAC.
Kick good, that made it 14-0.
The comes the Buttfumble, 21-0
On the very next play, Pats kicking off, Devin McCourty absolutely levels the Jets kick returner, popping the ball into the air. Edelman sweeps by, pulls the ball in, scores untouched. Kick good. Pats 28-Jets 0.
That 21 points in about two minutes of game time functionally ended the Jets season. They were 3-3 headed into Thanksgiving. They tailspinned their way to 6-10.
In the prior Pats possession, Shane Vereen had scored an 83 yard TD after the vaunted Rexy defense got confused about who was covering the RB out of the backfield. It was a beautiful play -- presnap, Brady sees Vereen uncovered, after the snap. Brady stares down Welker in the middle of the field to freeze the defense, then lofts the ball over to a wide-open Vereen in stride. Dude collected like 70 YAC.
Kick good, that made it 14-0.
The comes the Buttfumble, 21-0
On the very next play, Pats kicking off, Devin McCourty absolutely levels the Jets kick returner, popping the ball into the air. Edelman sweeps by, pulls the ball in, scores untouched. Kick good. Pats 28-Jets 0.
That 21 points in about two minutes of game time functionally ended the Jets season. They were 3-3 headed into Thanksgiving. They tailspinned their way to 6-10.
I remember watching that live and going through a range of emotions.
Happy they scored the Vereen TD
Dumbfounded at the buttfumble (but at the time I thought they were going to call him down by contact)
Amazed at the KO fumble return TD.
I was laughing, and it was funny, but there was something else. Not sure what it was, maybe just amazement.
We were in NYC for the Thanksgiving holiday and were hanging out in our hotel lobby after T-day dinner and heard gasping from the lobby bar. Headed over there and it was FANTASTIC
Yes, for sure. I don’t have the stats in front of me but one year defenders dropped something like 6-8 picks.
You seem to have this idea that Sanchez was decent / good enough, but I invite you to consider the possibility that he was never very good. If you accept that as your working theory, everything else falls into place:
1) His numbers were always terrible
2) NYJ's team performance fell off when the D was no longer elite, culminating with Sanchez getting benched in the 2012 finale for Greg McElroy, who never threw an NFL pass after
3) The Jets used a 2nd on Geno with Sanchez entering Y5 (before he got hurt)
4) The complete lack of interest in Sanchez as a 28-year-old FA, leading to taking a backup role to Nick Foles for 1-year, $2.25 MM
5) That even though he played respectably in a few starts under Chip Kelly and re-signed, the Eagles paid considerably to trade for Sam Bradford and start him over Sanchez even though i) Bradford has never been good and ii) Bradford hadn't played in almost two years
6) Sanchez then failed to beat out Trevor Siemien and Paxton Lynch for a wide-open DEN job
7) Sanchez has been mostly a third quarterback since, behind such luminaries as Mike Glennon, Colt McCoy, Josh Johnson, etc.
I look at that pattern, and it's clear to me that the NFL was not fooled by his first two seasons. He was never treated as a starter or a potential starter after leaving the Jets.
Good for Sanchez then earning roughly $74m in his career for being a never was. Must be nice.
Sanchez got a lot of hype because he was (a) in NY; (b) in NY when the Jets were on Hard Knocks; and (c) in NY when the Jets were good. On top of all that, the Jets being good that one season allowed Felger & Mazz to not only troll us with "I've told you all along that the cap is crap" and "Now New England's dynasty is over and they are once again second fiddle to a team from NY", but they were also able to add:
"Who would you rather have going forward: 25 y/o Mark Sanchez who's entering his prime after leading his team over the Colts and Patriots went all the way to the AFC Championship Game, or 35 year old Tom Brady who hasn't even been to an AFC Championship game since he got hurt".
It was for that reason alone that the butt fumble play should live forever in our hearts (plus the fact that it happened under Rex Ryan's watch).
But, yeah, Sanchez was never a good QB. He was a capable backup that almost Trent Dilfer'ed his way to the top. As for the $74M, just goes to show that there's always stupid money being thrown around in the NFL.
"Who would you rather have going forward: 25 y/o Mark Sanchez who's entering his prime after leading his team over the Colts and Patriots went all the way to the AFC Championship Game, or 35 year old Tom Brady who hasn't even been to an AFC Championship game since he got hurt".
It was for that reason alone that the butt fumble play should live forever in our hearts (plus the fact that it happened under Rex Ryan's watch).
But, yeah, Sanchez was never a good QB. He was a capable backup that almost Trent Dilfer'ed his way to the top. As for the $74M, just goes to show that there's always stupid money being thrown around in the NFL.
Just don't say that in Rex Ryan's presence.
(how crazy must the bet that he lost have been, anyway?)
edit: dammit Marciano
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I was at my in-laws for Thanksgiving and after Vereen scored I figured it was a good time to head out for the 5 min drive back to my house. I remember being astounded after turning on the TV to find that the score was 28-0.
And the whole sequence started with a Jets fumble on a 4th and 1 (tho he would have probably been short anyway).
Also, with 9 minutes to go in the 2nd quarter, Steve Gregory already had an Int, 2 fumble recoveries and a TD.
It also helps that he came into the league 2 years before they revamped the rookie salary scale downwards significantly for top picks. (Sanchez's first contract was supposed to be like $47M over 5 years, while Patrick Peterson (also #5 overall, but in 2011) was only signed for like 28 over 5.
He was the QB and his team won but it's pretty hard to say that he led the team to the championship games: he never passed for 200 yards in a playoff win, he threw 38 passes combined in his first two playoff wins (and threw for only a hundred yards in his second playoff win), and the Jets ran for 171 yards, 169 yards, 169 yards, and 120 yards in his four wins. He essentially played out of his mind--which got him to the level of an average NFL QB--and combined with what was probably the best defense in the NFL and a very strong running game, that was enough to win a couple of close playoff games.
He was always pretty bad. During his first few years this board was full of people saying he was a garbage quarterback and that the Jets and their defense and running game (and good conservative playcalling by Schotty) were making him look good. Lots of NFL analysts (like Greg Cossel) thought he was bad in his first two years. Advanced stats thought he was bad. It wasn't clear whether or not he'd get better-he had limited college experience and QB is obviously a tough position.
There was a good book (Collision Low Crossers) about the 2011 Jets and it's pretty clear that the coaching staff was frustrated to no end by him, thought he was immature, and thought he lacked judgment on and off the field, and frankly didn't think he was good his first two years. Here's a quote from an article by the author of the book about Sanchez
:https://www.mensjournal.com/features/how-a-football-team-falls-apart-20131018/
"Upon taking the Jets job two years earlier, Ryan had no viable starting quarterback, and to his eyes, Sanchez was the best one available. The Jets dealt three players and two draft choices to the Browns in exchange for the fifth choice in the 2009 draft, and Sanchez arrived in New Jersey to sign the most lucrative contract in franchise history. The Jets quickly made Sanchez their starter, and in his first two seasons he led them to the AFC championship game – or perhaps they led him. In Sanchez’s young career, the Jets had carefully protected “the Sanchise,” emphasizing his virtues, limiting his playbook, minimizing his job competition, posting a media-relations staffer by his locker whenever he gave interviews. While he flashed the potential of someday becoming the polished, dynamic professional Ryan foresaw, he was still erratic, and so mostly he was a restricted element in a conservative run-first offense stocked with able veterans who gradually, over the course of the game, wore down the opposing defense. That the Jets still had no clear idea how good a quarterback Sanchez would become was nothing surprising; it pointed again to the difficulty in predicting the futures of football players and was part of the game’s mystery....."
Ultimately his problem might have been about intelligence, drive and work ethic. IIRC in Hard Knocks--during his second season--there was a scene where Brunnel had to remind him where the playbooks were before a QB meeting. Hard to imagine year 2 Brady/Manning/Brees not knowing where the playbooks are. Whatever the case, some quarterbacks learn how to diagnose a defense pre-snap, and make lightening fast perfect decisions. Others butffumble.
I found the dropped interceptions stat for Sanchez. It was 2010, his second year, the year of the infamous AFC Divisional game in Foxboro. Sanchez threw 13 picks that year. Threw a whopping 28 interceptable passes that year per Football Outsiders. His expected picks was 22.1. By their measure, it was the luckiest QB season on record since they began tracking it in 2007. 28 interceptable passes. Mind blowing. He sucked.
While the butt fumble was glorious, I will never, ever, ever forget the game the 2011 team lost in Denver that really hurt their playoff chances. Jets up 10-3 in the 3rd quarter in Denver. Denver offense doing absolutely nothing - they ended up with 229 yards in the game, and 95 of those yards ended up coming on their last drive, a game winning TD drive. To that point in the game they had ~115 yards. Anyway, 3rd and 6 from their own 25, Sanchize drops back to pass and... pick 6 for the Broncos. I've never been happier for a Broncos win. Their offense had no prayer in hell (ha, Tebow) of scoring against that Jets D and Sanchize put them right back in the game. It... was... awesome.
For your viewing pleasure. 1:37:22 mark.
https://youtu.be/uM_ls6txMLw?t=5842
Edit: the Broncos had drives of 1, 1, 0, 9, 0, -1, 3, and 8 yards. 7 3 and outs, and a 2 play, 1 yard drive with a fumble. They literally had no change against that Jets D. Until Sanchize intervened.
While the butt fumble was glorious, I will never, ever, ever forget the game the 2011 team lost in Denver that really hurt their playoff chances. Jets up 10-3 in the 3rd quarter in Denver. Denver offense doing absolutely nothing - they ended up with 229 yards in the game, and 95 of those yards ended up coming on their last drive, a game winning TD drive. To that point in the game they had ~115 yards. Anyway, 3rd and 6 from their own 25, Sanchize drops back to pass and... pick 6 for the Broncos. I've never been happier for a Broncos win. Their offense had no prayer in hell (ha, Tebow) of scoring against that Jets D and Sanchize put them right back in the game. It... was... awesome.
For your viewing pleasure. 1:37:22 mark.
https://youtu.be/uM_ls6txMLw?t=5842
Edit: the Broncos had drives of 1, 1, 0, 9, 0, -1, 3, and 8 yards. 7 3 and outs, and a 2 play, 1 yard drive with a fumble. They literally had no change against that Jets D. Until Sanchize intervened.
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Thank you. Helpful, as were other posts above.
I may have said “led” and if so, that was an overstatement. Those Jets teams certainly were led by the defense.
I did not regard him as better than replacement level. Put differently, a plucky, system QB for a Rex Ryan team with some potential upside.
I was taken aback by the depth of his fall, which may be clouded by his beyond abysmal performance at the end of his career. I figured he would be at least a competent NFL backup. He does not belong on a roster and pretty cannot play at all. That is what prompted my initial question.
He was a good looking guy, high draft pick for NY, at a time when people though Brady was on the outs. Sanchez was the heir apparent. The hype was totally disproportionate to the on-the-field results.
Also, didn't he, like, date a 17 year old when he was in the NFL?
EDIT: Oh, sorry. My bad. He didn't date a 17 year old. He fucked her. But apparently that was cool way back in 2011 ("no wrongdoing...")
Also, didn't he, like, date a 17 year old when he was in the NFL?
EDIT: Oh, sorry. My bad. He didn't date a 17 year old. He fucked her. But apparently that was cool way back in 2011 ("no wrongdoing...")
I don't see falling from a replacement / backup level QB in his prime to a third-string / out-of-football player in his early 30's as particularly deep, or unexpected. If Blake Bortles is out of football in five years, will that surprise you?
But Sam Bradford was legitimately good in 2016. For a whole season. That's more than what Flynn or Sanchez can say.
Some of the Pro Football Reference comps for Sanchez are the immortal Charlie Batch and Vince Young. In other words, shit.
Bradford is guys like Elvis Grbac, Jason Campbell, David Carr. Not great, but serviceable in most cases.
Flynn doesn't even get listed.
Some of the Pro Football Reference comps for Sanchez are the immortal Charlie Batch and Vince Young. In other words, shit.
Bradford is guys like Elvis Grbac, Jason Campbell, David Carr. Not great, but serviceable in most cases.
Flynn doesn't even get listed.
Bradford wasn't (and has never been) good. Minnesota finished 23rd in points scored. He led the league in completion % but averaged fewer than 10 yards per completion, so his Y/A was 20th in the league.
Your overarching point stands: That is still better than anything Flynn or Sanchez has done.
It was one of those where were you when(?) moments. 9/11, Kennedy Assassination, Moon Landing, Butt Fumble. I was in a bar in downtown Duluth watching in amazement. Burned into my memory, right up there with when I saw my first pair of titties. So iconic and unforgettable ESPN had to retire it after “winning” 40 straight weeks on the Not Top Ten. #neverforget