This is even more true the last few years as the cap has exploded. Every team has the cap space to keep their good players.
Goats, Week 4 at San Francisco
- Thread starter Eddie Jurak
- Start date
I agree Mayo has nothing to work with, but the early returns on strategy are REALLY bad (assuming they are trying to actually win games).
It's only early signal at this point, and NFL coaches do more than just in-game strategy of course.
But we can analyze what we've seen. And it's not pretty.
Agreed. But it’s to be expected. This is a guy who probably shouldn’t have gotten a HC job based on his resume.
But, for now, like 98% of my concerns with this organization are the roster. It is horrendous.
The roster is a joke, which is why the “we may only win a few games but it will be exciting to watch guys develop” mantra is kind of silly. The line is awful, the QB is bad, and the WR room is more embarrassing than the movie “The Room”. The defense plays hard but I imagine they are going to get really frustrated, and tired, before long. This is really, really bad.
Hopefully things turn around and we can at least see some glimpses of promise from the younger guys, but it’s difficult to feel too optimistic after the last few weeks. This is a terrible football team.
Hopefully things turn around and we can at least see some glimpses of promise from the younger guys, but it’s difficult to feel too optimistic after the last few weeks. This is a terrible football team.
But for the kicker, ironically, the only guys I feel confident in were drafted and signed by BB. It's a lengthy list. Unfortunately, it's overwhelmingly on one side of the ball plus the punter. But, yeah, this will be a thing for Bill haters for at least another year or two. Blame your predecessor. It works until it doesn't.
Meh. The defense is good enough to win in the league (I have concerns about the DC but that's for another time) and the specials teams also look good. The offense may be close to historically bad. That's the problem.
I didn't watch the game, but seems like I didn't miss much. There is much talk about not starting Maye any time soon. I'm puzzled by @E5 Yaz saying Maye clearly is not an NFL QB. Sarcasm? Or a reaction to the Patriots' reluctance to trot Maye out there behind what is by all accounts a tire fire of an OL, which was probably bottom 5 in the league -- before the injuries to Lowe, Andrews, Wallace, Jordan, Robinson (missing someone I'm sure).
I was using a line from a someone's previous post to make the point at the end of my post. I've edited it to clarify
Thanks for that. I for one can't wait for the Maye era to begin - even if he might be running for his life for the first few games.
good talent does actually get to free agency. Cousins, Greenard, Hunt, Wilkins, Aaron Jones, Ridley, Jacobs, Onwenu, Cushenberry, Queen and a bunch of second and third tier useful guys all hit free agency
2023 you had Hargrave, Edmunds, Carr, Bates, Tomlinson, Dean etc
as for “wasting money” in 2020, Judon and Henry were hardly wastes. Agoholor was probably slightly overpaid but on short years
better to waste money improving the roster than sitting on money and never spending it. Free agents are going to get overpaid (generally) but that’s the price you pay to improve the roster
Probably all season given his role in setting the platform for this roster and this coaching staff.
I am not a BB hater and thought bringing him back for the 2023 season was totally justifiable, despite some concerns. It's hard to see Kraft having any option other than sending BB packing last offseason, though.
Agree with most of this, although I think that we could have had peak Trent Williams today and been pretty dogshit at pass pro still. They slow motion replayed RG getting freight trained on the broadcast. Dudes were coming from everywhere.
There are a lot of LT in the NFL better than Lowe who aren’t top 10 picks.
What are they going to do if they can’t get a tackle in the top 10 next April? Just punt the OL again?
Kind of a weird hypothetical, given the game that we all just watched. Nobody has one of the OTs going in the top 5, and it sure as shit seems like we'll be picking thereabouts. The former could change if someone shoots up the board, but there's no reason to think that we'll be picking 12 and all of the day 1 starters will be gone.
View: https://twitter.com/dougkyed/status/1840604415188959248?s=46&t=9f7MiLx6Rs29ViAoQbOJtw
Per Doug Kyed:
Patriots QB Jacoby Brissett was under pressure on 19 of 40 dropbacks, per PFF. Patriots OL allowed 21 total pressures.
LT Demontrey Jacobs: 7 (one sack, two hits)
RG Layden Robinson: 7 (one sack, two hits)
LG Sidy Sow: 4 (one sack, one hit)
RT Mike Onwenu: 3
C Nick Leverett: 0
C David Andrews: 0
Brissett has been under pressure on a league-high 47.2% of dropbacks this season.
PFF counts sacks differently.
Per Doug Kyed:
Patriots QB Jacoby Brissett was under pressure on 19 of 40 dropbacks, per PFF. Patriots OL allowed 21 total pressures.
LT Demontrey Jacobs: 7 (one sack, two hits)
RG Layden Robinson: 7 (one sack, two hits)
LG Sidy Sow: 4 (one sack, one hit)
RT Mike Onwenu: 3
C Nick Leverett: 0
C David Andrews: 0
Brissett has been under pressure on a league-high 47.2% of dropbacks this season.
PFF counts sacks differently.
Can we say Kraft and Mayo by extension for not having experienced coaches in place to rebuild and develop players? Has Mayo ever been an HC at any level? Has AVP ever been a call player before? Has DC ever been a DC at any level? Aren’t also several of the position coaches new in their role?
I totally get why moving on from Bill can seem logical given everything. In my mind I keep coming back to the reports that he wanted to move on from Mac and Kraft did not.
Hehe. Different sports. But I totally bought into Joe as the HC of the Celtics from the get go. He had at least been an HC. He was hired in a rush at an uncommon time in the nba schedule and wasn’t able to hire his own staff. By year two when he had more time, he could hire his own staff and brought in very veteran assistants. Kraft and Mayo did not have to rush. They had a lot more time. And I don’t think Kraft interviewed anyone else for coach but Mayo. Not even sure he actually interviewed Mayo.
edit: Brad was telling Wyc this is our best option. Brad knows basketball and knows coaching basketball. Who was telling Kraft that Mayo was the guy?
So Kraft didn’t interview anybody for the head coaching job besides Mayo? Sounds like a Rooney rule violation in reverse, or something like that.
No, Yes, Yes and Yes are the answers there.
Mayo has never been a head coach, AVP has called plays before (1 season a while ago plus a game or two in CLE),
Covington was a DC once (in college for a year)
The positions coaches are a mix of experienced and fairly new, which you expect from most staffs, particularly ones with young HCs.
If I remember correctly he wanted to get rid of Mac and sign Baker Mayfield. He would still have his job if he was allowed to do that.
You're correct. AVP handled play calling duties in 2005 for Frankfurt. Not meant as snark.
I think defensive injuries have taken a toll, which makes it harder to evaluate the defense.
Coming into the season, I think there was a strong case to be made that Barmore was the best defensive player on the roster. They don't really a replacement for what Barmore brings. Last year's team lost Judon early - I think losing Barmore now is a bigger hit than losing Judon was then. A huge hit to the front seven.
On top of Barmore, they just lost Ju'Whaun Bentley. Bentley is not a guy I would say was the best defensive player on the roster, or even lose, but he is the closest thing the team had to an every down MLB. I think he's one of those guys who plays above his talent level. Losing him is another hit to the front seven and the center of the defense. Losing him forces Jahlani Tavai - another physically limited guy - into a role he is not suited for. I like Tavai as the complementary part time player he was last year. But since he was forced to step in for Bentley, he has been exposed.
And yesterday, adding insult to injury, Jennings was also out. Jennings is not a great player, but he is very good at setting the edge on running plays, something that they missed, probably all the more so because they were also missing Bentley.
That is a lot to lose from the defensive front seven.
What happened yesterday? On passing downs, especially early, the rushers repeatedly lost contain and let Purdy scramble. On rushing downs, the Pats repeatedly failed to set the edge.
The question I don't think we have the answer to yet is how much of this was coaching vs personnel. Last year Mayo coached the linebackers and Covington coached the DL, so it is hard to believe that they have simply forgotten some of the things that made them successful before. But maybe they have. Or it could be the personnel.
They also haven't had a good free safety since DMac left, which was on full display on the bomb to Deebo.
Coming into the season, I think there was a strong case to be made that Barmore was the best defensive player on the roster. They don't really a replacement for what Barmore brings. Last year's team lost Judon early - I think losing Barmore now is a bigger hit than losing Judon was then. A huge hit to the front seven.
On top of Barmore, they just lost Ju'Whaun Bentley. Bentley is not a guy I would say was the best defensive player on the roster, or even lose, but he is the closest thing the team had to an every down MLB. I think he's one of those guys who plays above his talent level. Losing him is another hit to the front seven and the center of the defense. Losing him forces Jahlani Tavai - another physically limited guy - into a role he is not suited for. I like Tavai as the complementary part time player he was last year. But since he was forced to step in for Bentley, he has been exposed.
And yesterday, adding insult to injury, Jennings was also out. Jennings is not a great player, but he is very good at setting the edge on running plays, something that they missed, probably all the more so because they were also missing Bentley.
That is a lot to lose from the defensive front seven.
What happened yesterday? On passing downs, especially early, the rushers repeatedly lost contain and let Purdy scramble. On rushing downs, the Pats repeatedly failed to set the edge.
The question I don't think we have the answer to yet is how much of this was coaching vs personnel. Last year Mayo coached the linebackers and Covington coached the DL, so it is hard to believe that they have simply forgotten some of the things that made them successful before. But maybe they have. Or it could be the personnel.
They also haven't had a good free safety since DMac left, which was on full display on the bomb to Deebo.
Well, if you're going with an inexperienced coaching staff, may as well do it with this roster. Let the Mayo and the staff take their hits and learn the hard way, and hopefully we'll see improvement in December (and improvement does not equate to empty wins, fwiw).
If the coaching looks incompetent by the end of a hypothetical 1-16 season, flush the staff and begin again.
Mayo had the title of
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Where was this reported? I know Judge had that title, but I thought Mayo was simply "Linebackers".
I did misstate, it wasn't the official title of assistant head coach, but instead the fact that Mayo was the designated successor:
https://frontofficesports.com/patriots-rapid-hire-of-jerod-mayo-exercises-exception-to-rooney-rule-succession/#:~:text=The rapid promotion of Mayo,with a written succession plan.
THis is incorrect.
What it was is that you can create a written succession plan when you sign the individual (coaches, execs) and if you do you can bypass the Rooney rule when you elevate them
I can worry about him when he can’t avoid obvious landmines in the media and, as referenced, makes the most obvious tactical mistakes in game.
View: https://twitter.com/lostalkspats/status/1840759573248119088?s=46
What is he doing? Is there nobody advising him?
I think it's much more likely they flush Wolf and Groh and maybe reinforce the coaching staff. I could see them firing AVP and McAdoo, for instance, and going to get the latest Shanahan disciple du jour (or a guy like Daboll if he gets canned). Apart from a scandal or losing 75-0 for several weeks in a row, I think they give Mayo a minimum of two years and a real chance to get Maye up and going.
He certainly gives the impression of someone who is not even remotely ready for the position he is currently holding.
Kraft basically picked Belichick the same way. Sure, BFB had been an NFL HC in Cleveland and had been a coordinator forever, but Kraft picked him the same way for the same reason--he just saw something in him. SSS of course, but he's 1 for 1 on the gut test, with Mayo still TBD.
I guess... but it's not like he just had a gut feeling, he also was an immensely qualified DC, and if anything the gut test was that he regretted not hiring him when he went to Carroll. Kraft wants to compare his hiring of Mayo to his hiring of Bill because Bill is the best coach ever, and he wants people to think "wow that Bob Kraft, really a genius for sniffing that out. but they aren't all that similar. Bellichick was one of the most in-demand DCs in the league, the Jets were about to make him HC, he had decades of experience and a well earned reputation as one of the best defensive gameplanners and playcallers in the league. Kraft didn't hire him because he got a vibe, he hired him because he passed on the highly qualified candidate in front of him once and regretted it.
Honestly I would guess the Mayo hire is more similar to the Pete hire... personality guy, only some limited DC experience (Pete had more lower level experience).
Mayo definitely seems to make a great impression on those around him, especially his bosses. But when Kraft hired BB, there was a whole resume behind the hire, as well as the “stick it to Parcells potential”. BB may have been the hottest assistant at that time and Parcells and Kraft knew it.
It doesn't make sense to over-parse Kraft's words here. Kraft certainly had many conversations with Mayo when Jerod was an assistant. Kraft saw him at practice, and I'm sure he got opinions from Belichick and many others when Mayo was promoted multiple times along the way. The decision to name Mayo as head coach had little if anything to do with a single encounter Kraft had.
I mean, it's fair to question whether hiring a rookie coach, especially one that had no connections with the staffs of other teams, was the best move. But other teams have had success with rookie coaches as well. But to attribute the hiring to a hallway conversation is ridiculous and needs to be called out as such.
I mean, it's fair to question whether hiring a rookie coach, especially one that had no connections with the staffs of other teams, was the best move. But other teams have had success with rookie coaches as well. But to attribute the hiring to a hallway conversation is ridiculous and needs to be called out as such.
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That should be obvious, but people love a story.
Kraft has hired three head coaches since he bought the team. Pete Carroll, who wasn't ready yet but clearly has had a lot of success since, the GOAT, and now Mayo, who's four games into his head coaching tenure. Seems silly to fly a "Kraft has no idea what he's doing here" flag, but to each his own.
The number of head coaches who struggle early in their careers (as HCs) as they learn, but then improve over time, is considerably high.
Of course the number of head coaches who struggle early in their careers (as HCs) and continue to struggle because HC isn't the job for them, is also considerably high.
Of course the number of head coaches who struggle early in their careers (as HCs) and continue to struggle because HC isn't the job for them, is also considerably high.
I don't know if this is true for others -- and I guess this could be in another thread -- but when a team is this bad it's hard for me to tease apart what is whose fault.
Player performance? Brissett's play -- since the Seattle game in particular, from what little I saw -- has been dreadful. He can be cromulent at times... but mostly can't process when guys are open, he can't deliver the ball quickly, he can't escape pressure. At the same time, the offensive line are mostly turnstiles -- the Jets and Niners blitzed on some ridiculous percentage of plays (as mentioned on the broadcast), knowing that the O Line was going to miss assignments, get blown off the line, and generally wilt under pressure. Which brings me to:
Offensive coaching? Dialing up a long throw into double coverage on 4th & 5 perfectly symbolized -- for me -- bizarre decision making and refusing to put players in a position to succeed. I have no idea whose decision it was to throw that ball -- Brissett? AVP? -- but asking the o line to block that long, Brissett to throw that far downfield, and Polk to beat double coverage for a sideline ball was just a bafflingly poor decision.
Front office decisionmaking? This roster continues to be comically devoid of talent, and have the depth of an inflatable kiddie pool. The injuries are unfortunate, but this is the NFL -- every team has to handle injuries.
Ultimately I don't know where that leaves me... other than relatively disinterested in the rest of this season (Brady and Gronk begging the Pats not to play Maye is proof enough to me that I will continue to say what I've said since April, which is I hope we don't see him until November/December) and eager to hear @SMU_Sox and others tell me about LT prospects who will be available in the Top 10 in next year's draft.
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This is a good point and we should remember that BB went 5-11 his first year here.
This coming from someone who wants Mayo to succeed and thinks firing BB was a mistake.
It's particularly funny given that the recurring joke of the Belichick tenure was that the Browns fired the guy who turned out to be the greatest coach of all time.
Of course... I'm not saying Mayo is Belichick. But the '91, '92, and '93 Browns went 6-10, 7-9, and 7-9. If Mayo did that this board would rightly call for him to be sent to man a weather station in Alaska by the end of the day and mail him his clothes.
It's Brissett's decsion. It's almost always the QB's decision which route to throw to. In this case they had two staggered crossers coming right to left (6 and 9 yards downfield) into the space Polk clears, a late leak from the RB after he chips back left to right. 49ers flooded the zone at the sticks getting in the way, the back was probably going to be open, but the Patriots didn't pick up a stunt correctly and someone (Robinson I think?) lost pretty quick. Best option there was Polk, and he almost made the play. If the line held up about 0.5 seconds longer he could have dumped it to Gibson for a footrace with the MLB to the sticks. You have to run at least 1 route with some depth to clear out space for the other routes.
The spirit of the Rooney rule might be better served if there were requirements to interview minority coaches to be the benefactor of these succession plans rather than create a loophole.
Hard disagree here ... BB was already legendary as the NYG DC and it was well publicized he would be a head coach sooner rather than later. There was no "gut test" Kraft just got him first ... well technically second after his storied career with the NYJ.
well for HC they usually do since those guys are coordinators and that position needs to comply (the Patriots have often sidestepped this by never having a vacancy, or never hiring someone with the title.
I don't see how they play Milton over Maye at this point. "We're going to play a 6th round pick over you son, the 3rd overall pick in the draft, because we think your psyche can't handle making mistakes in a pro-setting". Isn't that counter-intuitive?
There's zero chance of the Pats playing Milton over Maye and there isn't even any serious dialog about such a scenario.