Goats vs Colts

Norm Siebern

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May 12, 2003
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Defense
Mayo
Refs

Defense - There were 4 plays in the final drive that the Colts had to make either the yardage needed for the first down, TD, or conversion, or the game was over. The defense failed on all four plays. One? Sure. Two? It happens. Three? Its a stretch. To fail on all 4 is unforgivable and the latest sign that this defense is brutally overrated. It really is soft. How much of that is on talent, and how much of that is on Covington, I don't know. I just know that when the game is in the balance, this defense stinks.

Mayo - already covered.

Refs - 3 of the 5 holds called on the Patriots OLine were questionable at best. Compare them to the video above of Barmore getting tackled from behind and its a joke. I know bad teams don't get calls, but how do you get good if you never get a call? The Pats getting shafted every week by another crew is getting tiresome.
 

8slim

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Nov 6, 2001
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There are some over-the-top comments today, then there's the laughable comment on SI by their reporters on Maye's performance today

A pass that was purposely thrown low, so only Henry had a chance, then bounced a couple of times into the arms of a defender was ill-advised?
He’s developing bad habits. We may need to be concerned!!
 

rodderick

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Can someone post specifically what Mayo did that was so horrific? I’m not saying he wasn’t, but the one thing that really burned me up was him not challenging that 3rd down completion on the Colts last drive.

Aside from that… is it just general anger that we committed penalties and lost? I hated the 2 straight run calls after the pick, but that’s on AVP. The D was abysmal on the last drive (19 freaking plays!) but that was on the players IMHO.
Not necessarily. It's very common for the HC to make it known to the OC what approach he wants to take offensively in those situations. Not the play call specifically, but he could very well have told AVP "hey, make sure we run to burn some clock here and don't put ourselves in position to turn the ball over".
 

Cellar-Door

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This is a good thread idea. How many can we realistically turn over in one offseason?

There won't be many changes to the QB, RB, or TE room (Brissett and Hasty likely get swapped out like for like).

But if you count on maybe 6 or 7 draftees making your roster, and sign lots of FAs, you might be looking at a total of 20 new guys or so.
10 guys on the current 53 are free agents, another 5-8 are end of the roster guys who probably won't be here.... could see 40% of the roster turn over this offseason. Only 31 guys are under contract for 2026 and I doubt all of them make it. 14 guys under contract in 2027 (the 8 rookies, Barmore, Dugger, Peppers, Stevenson, Tavai, Schooler).
 

8slim

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Not necessarily. It's very common for the HC to make it known to the OC what approach he wants to take offensively in those situations. Not the play call specifically, but he could very well have told AVP "hey, make sure we run to burn some clock here and don't put ourselves in position to turn the ball over".
Sure that’s possible. But we don’t know.

Again, I’d love to hear more specifics about Mayo’s performance today. Aside from griping about TO usage on that last Colts drive, and a general disdain for being conservative, mostly I’m reading vague notions that he was a disaster.

Usually SoSH is more descriptive than this.
 

Dogman

Yukon Cornelius
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Can someone post specifically what Mayo did that was so horrific? I’m not saying he wasn’t, but the one thing that really burned me up was him not challenging that 3rd down completion on the Colts last drive.

Aside from that… is it just general anger that we committed penalties and lost? I hated the 2 straight run calls after the pick, but that’s on AVP. The D was abysmal on the last drive (19 freaking plays!) but that was on the players IMHO.

Inside of 2 minutes, he couldn't challenge that?
 

Cellar-Door

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Inside of 2 minutes, he couldn't challenge that?
It was at 4:02, but I think he didn't challenge in part because replay assist didn't chime in, and you're less likely to win those, since if there was an obvious indisputable shot they should buzz down.
 

Remagellan

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Yeah, that's bonkers. It was a good throw, should have been a completion. Instead...INT thanks to Henry fumbling the ball about. That's a handful of turnovers by Maye that obviously all count, but weren't his fault at all.
It is literally a throw (low, soft to the point of almost handing the ball to the receiver) one has seen Mahomes make countless times, except Kelce catches those for TDs.

I don't do this goat nonsense, but that play was more crucial than any other in this game. That's 3-7 points, and really 7, that came off the board because of Henry's miscue.
 

j44thor

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It was at 4:02, but I think he didn't challenge in part because replay assist didn't chime in, and you're less likely to win those, since if there was an obvious indisputable shot they should buzz down.
Relying on replay assist would be ridiculous. That is completely arbitrary as far as how it is enforced.
Not challenging that play at that point in the game was egregious. He didn't even appear to be considering it.
 

Dollar

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It was at 4:02, but I think he didn't challenge in part because replay assist didn't chime in, and you're less likely to win those, since if there was an obvious indisputable shot they should buzz down.
This was my thinking too. If replay assist didn't change the call, why should they expect it to be changed by throwing a challenge flag and risking the waste of a timeout? In short, the replay assist thing is fucking terrible because it introduces a new variable that is 100% dependent on some dude in the stadium replay booth arbitrarily deciding when to stop play or not.

But Mayo still should have considered throwing a challenge flag. And if he didn't have someone in his headset telling him what replay showed, he is an idiot.
 

streeter88

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Apr 2, 2006
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I slept through this game, or rather woke briefly to check the score a couple of times. So I am a goat as well sadly.

Thread summary: goats are OL, sloppiness, defense, refs, missed chip shot FG, and OL!

And coaching, which has been the standard goat this whole season.

What I read of the defense was they stopped Indy really well throughout the middle of the game (3 points off of 4 possessions from the end of the seond quarter), but failed utterly on the last drive. Gotta chalk some of that up to the other team basically saying "we gotta have it" then going out and getting it.

A good number of individual plays meant the game was closer than it should have been coming into the final Colts drive. That's what separates the bad teams from the good teams.

OL needs a massive makeover, but not even sure Mayo will need to fire Covington to save his job as the injuries have been horridious.

Wolf, I dunno. Guy seems ineffective at best.
 

DJnVa

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10 guys on the current 53 are free agents, another 5-8 are end of the roster guys who probably won't be here.... could see 40% of the roster turn over this offseason.
40% of 53 is 21. So, kinda what I was thinking.
 

DJnVa

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Relying on replay assist would be ridiculous. That is completely arbitrary as far as how it is enforced.
Not challenging that play at that point in the game was egregious. He didn't even appear to be considering it.
They said they didn't get a good replay on the sideline showing anything so they had no way of knowing if they had a decent shot, and I assume they thought the TO was more valuable.

But Mayo still should have considered throwing a challenge flag. And if he didn't have someone in his headset telling him what replay showed, he is an idiot.
What're we doing here? Do we really think the Pats don't have someone doing this? This is EEI level. They literally asked Mayo postgame and he said they didn't have a good replay that showed there was chance of reversal.
 

NomarsFool

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Outside of Gonzo, I'm not sure the defense was that great. Richardson looks like the reincarnation of Patriots' Cam Newton. Although I would say that Richardson had a couple of really nice throws that the WRs didn't make plays on or were broken up by the Pats. But, he had some throws which looked pretty bad.
 

JokersWildJIMED

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Mayo literally doesn’t know what he’s doing if his “decision “ at that point is the TO is more important. He acted like he didn’t even consider challenging the play and the risk / reward of losing a timeout or a 4th and 10 is an easy call with 4 minutes left and up 7. Teams often don’t get a good look and have to make a quick decision but it was a use it or lose it situation. Folks in the game thread were ridiculously arguing that it wasn’t worth “losing” the challenge, and it’s likely Mayo also had a faulty understanding of the situation.
 

DJnVa

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Folks in the game thread were ridiculously arguing that it wasn’t worth “losing” the challenge, and it’s likely Mayo also had a faulty understanding of the situation.
What do you think Mayo didn't understand? How replays work? Please be specific. You seem to be calling him stupid because it's a very easy situation. So, what did you mean?

Teams often don’t get a good look and have to make a quick decision but it was a use it or lose it situation.
No it wasn't. This shows a faulty understanding of the situation.
 

JokersWildJIMED

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What do you think Mayo didn't understand? How replays work? Please be specific. You seem to be calling him stupid because it's a very easy situation. So, what did you mean?



No it wasn't. This shows a faulty understanding of the situation.
Of course it was. With 4 minutes left you’re unbelievably unlikely to get another chance at a challenge in the next 2 minutes. Holding the challenge for that possibility is ridiculous and therefore he uses the timeout excuse. However at that point in the game the possible yardage gain is more valuable than the lost timeout.
 

Cellar-Door

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Of course it was. With 4 minutes left you’re unbelievably unlikely to get another chance at a challenge in the next 2 minutes. Holding the challenge for that possibility is ridiculous and therefore he uses the timeout excuse. However at that point in the game the possible yardage gain is more valuable than the lost timeout.
uh was it?
7 yards versus a timeout up 7 with 4 minutes left is a pretty debatable unless you think you have a very good chance to win the challenge, and what information he had was that he wasn't that likely to win it, so unless the people in the booth tell him "we have a good angle, we're likely to win" he shouldn't throw the flag.
 

Van Everyman

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This is exactly what I was saying in the game thread. Barmore got completely chop blocked and the refs missed it despite the fact that it ended up being the key "block" Richardson needed to convert.
uh was it?
7 yards versus a timeout up 7 with 4 minutes left is a pretty debatable unless you think you have a very good chance to win the challenge, and what information he had was that he wasn't that likely to win it, so unless the people in the booth tell him "we have a good angle, we're likely to win" he shouldn't throw the flag.
I would've challenged because it would've made the play 4th and 10 as opposed to 4th and 3 which feels a lot more makable. But I agree with your logic that the replay officials not reversing that probably means they wouldn't have on a challenge either. Which is lame because I don't think it was a catch.
 

j44thor

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uh was it?
7 yards versus a timeout up 7 with 4 minutes left is a pretty debatable unless you think you have a very good chance to win the challenge, and what information he had was that he wasn't that likely to win it, so unless the people in the booth tell him "we have a good angle, we're likely to win" he shouldn't throw the flag.
7 yards on 3rd down is worth a lot more than a TO up 7 with 4min left to play. 7 yards is worth even more when the other QB struggles mightily to complete passes downfield in any capacity but is one of the best short distance runners in the NFL.

I would give IND a 15 or so % chance of converting a 4th and 10 compared to 85% converting a 4th and 3.
How did Mayo not have the live feed we had on TV? That looked like the ball hit the ground live, if they don't have the NBC feed in the booth what are they watching?
 

Cellar-Door

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This is exactly what I was saying in the game thread. Barmore got completely chop blocked and the refs missed it despite the fact that it ended up being the key "block" Richardson needed to convert.

I would've challenged because it would've made the play 4th and 10 as opposed to 4th and 3 which feels a lot more makable. But I agree with your logic that the replay officials not reversing that probably means they wouldn't have on a challenge either. Which is lame because I don't think it was a catch.
My thing is... you need to have a good look to challenge a play when the difference is something like yards, if it was a pick or a 4th down conversion... sure, upside is higher, you need less certainty. Here, you have low certainty of success and the upside is... pretty low really. A timeout late in a 1 score game is big (as we saw, he misused his, but even then almost got to a GW FG, with 1 less.....)

Can someone post video of the play?
View: https://twitter.com/NFLscheme/status/1863322631195226325


It was this play, don't see the slowmo replay from the other angle on twitter, it was borderline, if you wanted to think it hit the ground you could see it, but ref called it complete on the field, assist didn't disagree. Pats fans are going to say it's OBVIOUSLY incomplete, but based on how we see it called around the league.... I'd say he probably had a less than 30% chance of winning, I see why the booth said "no clear enough shot".
 

Cellar-Door

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7 yards on 3rd down is worth a lot more than a TO up 7 with 4min left to play. 7 yards is worth even more when the other QB struggles mightily to complete passes downfield in any capacity but is one of the best short distance runners in the NFL.

I would give IND a 15 or so % chance of converting a 4th and 10 compared to 85% converting a 4th and 3.
How did Mayo not have the live feed we had on TV? That looked like the ball hit the ground live, if they don't have the NBC feed in the booth what are they watching?
There is zero chance those odds are right, but even if they were....you aren't taking into account the odds of an overturn, which based on the situation and how calls have been made this year.... I think were quite low that the ref reviews that and see conclusive evidence of incompletion to overcome the call made on the field.
 

JokersWildJIMED

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Have to disagree. Ball hit the ground. Richardson and Taylor are great at short yardage but Richardson is terrible at anything in the air. Worth the risk
 

Dogman

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I remember the play now and when watching in real time and the replay of the other angle, I thought he caught it/had it secured.

I don't think it was worth challenging and felt the TO was more valuable.
 

SMU_Sox

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Red zone execution on both sides of the ball. Colts 3/4. Pats 2/6. Refs didn’t help. Wolf and Groh are my season goats.
 

j44thor

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There is zero chance those odds are right, but even if they were....you aren't taking into account the odds of an overturn, which based on the situation and how calls have been made this year.... I think were quite low that the ref reviews that and see conclusive evidence of incompletion to overcome the call made on the field.
Just because it isn't on twitter doesn't mean the other angle that was shown live during the game doesn't exist. I'm fairly certain the all 22 will conclusively show it was not a catch just like the second angle which was replayed live during the game also showed. I'm more disappointed that Mayo claims they didn't get that replay more so than faulty logic on not wanting to challenge and risk losing a TO. How does NE not have the same replay millions of viewers have?
 

twibnotes

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lol early in the season yes by far but the last 4-5 games NIX looks like a 10-11 win QB and a top 15 qb overall with nix and bill u are at least 6-6 because sean peyton is basiccy bill just on the off sdie of the ball
nix is in a great situation with an amazing coach and qb whisperer. Maye would be outperforming him if he was the den qb1 imo
 

CoffeeNerdness

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Have to disagree. Ball hit the ground. Richardson and Taylor are great at short yardage but Richardson is terrible at anything in the air. Worth the risk
The ball can hit the ground. There has to be clear evidence that the player lost control of the ball.
 

Cellar-Door

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Just because it isn't on twitter doesn't mean the other angle that was shown live during the game doesn't exist. I'm fairly certain the all 22 will conclusively show it was not a catch just like the second angle which was replayed live during the game also showed. I'm more disappointed that Mayo claims they didn't get that replay more so than faulty logic on not wanting to challenge and risk losing a TO. How does NE not have the same replay millions of viewers have?
I'm sure they did, it was pretty inconclusive, I was saying I couldn't find it for Dogman.

Have to disagree. Ball hit the ground. Richardson and Taylor are great at short yardage but Richardson is terrible at anything in the air. Worth the risk
You're making a huge assumption that it would be overturned, and the evidence suggests it would not. All completions are subject to replay assist, who overturns if they think it is clear and obvious that the call was wrong. They did not here. Now you can challenge, but the standard on a challenge is the same clear and obvious. I am unaware of any calls this year where the replay assist didn't call it in and the challenge was successful. Literally last week Mayo challenged a completion call that replay assist didn't overturn and the game thread was screaming hit the ground.... he lost.


The challenge or not was not in the 10-15 worst things out of the coaching staff this game. It would have been a low probability gamble, and even if they won the Colts probably run the same 12 yard route they ran to get the 1st anyway.
 

54thMA

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Every single problem this team has boils down to Robert Kraft putting incompetents in charge.


AVP - incompetent.
Covington - incompetent
Mayo - incompetent
Wolf - so laughably incompetent there is no way he'll ever have another NFL job after this one

All 4 of these men are so bad at their jobs that the collective brain of SoSH would do a better job running the team and I do not say that lightly or glibly. Wolf in particular should be shot out of a cannon into the ocean for assembling this "offensive line", if you can even call it that.
I'm firmly in this camp, this is 100% on Kraft, been saying that all year long.

This team in the first year of a rebuild is going backwards, they'll once again have high draft picks in each round, I have less than zero confidence in Wolf to pick the right players, he's..........................not very good at this job. Going into this season with this horrendous offensive line specifically, more so his shitty draft picks.

And the coaching staff is a complete tire fire on both sides of the ball as well as the head coach, as Parcell's used to say "He's a ball in tall grass; lost."

Kraft should shitcan the whole staff and Wolf and start over.

But he won't, because Mayo "is a fine young man.", who can't coach at this level to save his life, fine young man or not.

Firing him after one year will reflect badly on him that he fucked this up,, so he'll never own this and admit this hire was a terrible one.
 

j44thor

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Here is the angle of the replay I was looking for. It is closer than I first thought, probably 50/50 if it is overturned or call stands. The ball does hit the ground 2 different times but you could argue the ball doesn't move enough. I still think it was worth challenging both because I think there was a chance it would be overturned but even if it isn't overturned taking a time out before 4th and 3 isn't the worst use of a TO to make sure you get your D set.

 

Dogman

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Here is the angle of the replay I was looking for. It is closer than I first thought, probably 50/50 if it is overturned or call stands. The ball does hit the ground 2 different times but you could argue the ball doesn't move enough. I still think it was worth challenging both because I think there was a chance it would be overturned but even if it isn't overturned taking a time out before 4th and 3 isn't the worst use of a TO to make sure you get your D set.

So if they challenged and lost, you want them to use another TO at 4 and 3?

Anyways, I think he caught it and wasn't worth the challenge. Also, agreed above, this isn't a reason we lost. Red zone execution is the biggest culprit.
 

jercra

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The fact that it came down to one play, at many points in the game, is actually incredible progress. The idea that there's point to challenge a play that wasn't reversed by replay assist is pretty crazy to me. Mayo said he didn't have a view? Ok, so maybe replay assist didn't have a view either? The risk is a timeout. The reward is a 4th and 10. Seems like a pretty obvious calculous to me. Let's look at every angle during a full replay review and see if there's maybe a chance. There's almost nothing to lose by challenging and certainly nothing to gain by not challenging.

To those asking what Mayo did wrong, I'd ask what he's done right. Is the team better than they were in week 1? In week 4? Maye is better than they could have hoped and that's made them look better, but if Brissett was still the QB, would they look like they've made any positive progress? It should be obvious, and it's really not. They look as bad as ever in every aspect outside of QB.
 

8slim

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I asked twice for specific detail on why Mayo was the primary reason why the Pats lost today. And no one has responded.

I’m still seeing nothing but vague complaints about being conservative/scared, and complaints about TO usage that have been pushed back on by others.

So I’m left thinking some of you are doing nothing more than throwing a tantrum and pinning everything on the head coach. Which, as mentioned in another post, is mouth breathing sports talk radio stuff.
 

j44thor

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So if they challenged and lost, you want them to use another TO at 4 and 3?

Anyways, I think he caught it and wasn't worth the challenge. Also, agreed above, this isn't a reason we lost. Red zone execution is the biggest culprit.
I would hope that they would be able to game plan for two specific outcomes at the same time. Have a play call that goes in if it is 4th & 10 and another if it is 4th & 3. The review takes longer than a 30sec time out so you have ample time to discuss both calls with the defense.
 
Oct 12, 2023
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I asked twice for specific detail on why Mayo was the primary reason why the Pats lost today. And no one has responded.

I’m still seeing nothing but vague complaints about being conservative/scared, and complaints about TO usage that have been pushed back on by others.

So I’m left thinking some of you are doing nothing more than throwing a tantrum and pinning everything on the head coach. Which, as mentioned in another post, is mouth breathing sports talk radio stuff.
another week of sloppy penalties. Guess asking a coach to improve team discipline is a bridge too far

I don’t know why the overly conservative stuff is being hand waved away? That’s a pretty big and valid complaint

another week where the defensive game planning was questionable at best. Richardson bailed the Pats out of a lot of situations. Middle of the D wasn’t doing anything most of the game. Very little pressure. Getting beat by Richardson’s legs in obvious QB run situations. Losing contain (as usual) in the run

what exactly is Mayo bringing the the table? Good strategy? Player development? In game adjustments?