Global Football Odds & Ends

67YAZ

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It’s noteworthy Rodri is the first defensive-oriented player to win since Cannavaro in 2006. Really remarkable achievement.

Also, Ancelotti over Xabi Alonso is some BULLSHIT.
 

Dummy Hoy

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It’s noteworthy Rodri is the first defensive-oriented player to win since Cannavaro in 2006. Really remarkable achievement.

Also, Ancelotti over Xabi Alonso is some BULLSHIT.
Agreed on the second point. And man...kind of think Kante maybe should have won one at his peak

Edit: There may be a few more...I mean, Emery taking Villa to the top 4 or Motta taking Bologna to the CL both seem more impressive than winning a double at Madrid (as impressive as a 1 loss season and a CL title is)
 

InstaFace

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Mighty Joe Young

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The independent report in the Canadian Woman's Olympic soccer drone scandal is out …

Priestman (and some assistants ) officially relieved of their duties. John Herdman (ex women's and men’s coach) is being tossed under a large tractor trailer as the architect of the whole sordid mess. He’s currently Toronto FC head coach in MLS - one has to assume his fate is up in the air.

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/summer/soccer/canada-soccer-drone-spying-investigation-findings-1.7381213

Things are still very murky - especially regarding Herdman who had been asked to interview with the independent commission but declined due to “scheduling conflicts “ which apparently lasted for three months. What’s more huge portions of the report were redacted.
 

Jimy Hendrix

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The independent report in the Canadian Woman's Olympic soccer drone scandal is out …

Priestman (and some assistants ) officially relieved of their duties. John Herdman (ex women's and men’s coach) is being tossed under a large tractor trailer as the architect of the whole sordid mess. He’s currently Toronto FC head coach in MLS - one has to assume his fate is up in the air.

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/summer/soccer/canada-soccer-drone-spying-investigation-findings-1.7381213

Things are still very murky - especially regarding Herdman who had been asked to interview with the independent commission but declined due to “scheduling conflicts “ which apparently lasted for three months. What’s more huge portions of the report were redacted.
It's been so transparently Herdman from the jump. The list of personnel who've cut across their men's and women's' teams at a high enough level to get this implemented everywhere is pretty much a piece of paper that says "John Herdman".
 

Zososoxfan

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Venezuela were down to 10 men and were barely holding on for a draw against Brazil. Then the sprinklers magically turned on with 90 seconds left.

View: https://twitter.com/meninblazers/status/1857204614631940499?s=46&t=XvGOrrWIyL-5CHVVL_0JYQ
OMG, that's amazing lol!

Unrelated note, but I just watched the documentary "Copa 71" on a JetBlue flight last night. It's the story about the first "women's world cup" in Mexico in 1971. I put the previous quotes in because it wasn't actually sanctioned by FIFA, who unsurprisingly opposed it with typical virulent misogyny. I didn't quite finish the film yet, but it deserves a watch. The opening cameo/interview especially, is terrific.
 

Jimy Hendrix

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What the fuck, Pennsylvania? What a weird state.

Another data point about needing to get out of Connecticut...
The offices of Sports Reference are in Philly, so the most logical theory I've heard is that they use Aaron Cresswell as a default sort of testing or checking on production issues page in the office.
 

InstaFace

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well you see, they had to rush the 2034 announcement, as it's only 10 years away. That's why, for 2030, which is only 6 years away, they got the host announcement out the door.... uh.... today as well.

I guess Australia and Indonesia had been exploring a joint bid, and the Saudis couldn't afford to give them more time to pull it together.

Norway protested the lack of transparency in the process, and abstained from the ratifying vote.
 

InstaFace

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This, after Cuc slipped and fell 2x vs Spurs, leading to two Spurs goals.


View: https://twitter.com/CFCPys/status/1866634482888880309
I think Puma is getting done dirty here, at least in the second instance. I've been Zaprudering this one and I gotta tell you, I think he just lands his plant foot at a bad angle there. It's not that the studs gave way or the boot was bent weirdly, he just lands his foot all wrong.

I made this, drawn from here and slowed down a bit:



Anyone agree?
 
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CodPiece XL

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well you see, they had to rush the 2034 announcement, as it's only 10 years away. That's why, for 2030, which is only 6 years away, they got the host announcement out the door.... uh.... today as well.

I guess Australia and Indonesia had been exploring a joint bid, and the Saudis couldn't afford to give them more time to pull it together.

Norway protested the lack of transparency in the process, and abstained from the ratifying vote.
No way Australia and Indonesia could match Saudis bribe no matter how much time they had.
 

rguilmar

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well you see, they had to rush the 2034 announcement, as it's only 10 years away. That's why, for 2030, which is only 6 years away, they got the host announcement out the door.... uh.... today as well.

I guess Australia and Indonesia had been exploring a joint bid, and the Saudis couldn't afford to give them more time to pull it together.

Norway protested the lack of transparency in the process, and abstained from the ratifying vote.
FIFA has announced two tournaments at once in the past. Russia and Qatar were announced together.

This had all been decided long ago. FIFA greased the wheels by giving three continents games in 2030, effectively fast forwarding a return to that sweet, sweet oil money.
 

Mighty Joe Young

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FIFA has announced two tournaments at once in the past. Russia and Qatar were announced together.

This had all been decided long ago. FIFA greased the wheels by giving three continents games in 2030, effectively fast forwarding a return to that sweet, sweet oil money.
Not to mention they only opened the bidding for 2034 like a month ago. The fix was in for sure.
 

rguilmar

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Has anyone seen credible reports on Youssoufa Moukoko’s age? I’ve seen a lot of reports about his supposed father saying the documents were falsified and he’s 4 years older, but nothing I’d call reliable. We see these types of accusations pop up in Spain once in a while, even about Spanish born players, and I generally dismiss them out of hand. I only ask because these reports quote an interview in Germany with Joseph Moukoko which I wouldn’t be able to understand even if I did find it.
 

Pesky Pole

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The offices of Sports Reference are in Philly, so the most logical theory I've heard is that they use Aaron Cresswell as a default sort of testing or checking on production issues page in the office.
Thank you for this. I wanted to google it but since I’m in PA, I’d probably just exacerbate the problem.
 

rguilmar

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Something that might only be of interest to @Zososoxfan and myself, but Eli Mengem’s next project will finally be released on Wednesday, two years after Argentina won the World Cup. His Once in a Lifetime series focuses on fans of long-suffering clubs as their teams were on the brink of winning a trophy. He went to Buenos Aires for the World Cup final and the celebrations. I can’t wait to see what he comes up with.

View: https://twitter.com/copa90/status/1868600025703682208?s=46&t=XvGOrrWIyL-5CHVVL_0JYQ
 

Zososoxfan

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Something that might only be of interest to @Zososoxfan and myself, but Eli Mengem’s next project will finally be released on Wednesday, two years after Argentina won the World Cup. His Once in a Lifetime series focuses on fans of long-suffering clubs as their teams were on the brink of winning a trophy. He went to Buenos Aires for the World Cup final and the celebrations. I can’t wait to see what he comes up with.

View: https://twitter.com/copa90/status/1868600025703682208?s=46&t=XvGOrrWIyL-5CHVVL_0JYQ
Uhhhh, this sounds epic! Where will it be released and how many cigarettes will I need?? Answer: 2 packs. N.B. I do not smoke cigarettes.
 

Zososoxfan

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Moving the Neymar discussion here because I'm too lazy to go back and find one of those threads about the top 100 players.

The finally trophy tally for European club football for Ney:

Barcelona (4 seasons)
La Liga (2): 2014–15, 2015–16
Copa del Rey (3): 2014–15, 2015–16, 2016–17
UEFA Champions League (1): 2014–15


Paris Saint-Germain (6 seasons)
Ligue 1 (5): 2017–18, 2018–19, 2019–20, 2021–22, 2022–23
Coupe de France (3): 2017–18, 2019–20, 2020–21
UEFA Champions League (0): runner-up 2019–20

TIL France also has a FA Cup/Carabao thingy going on with the Coupe de France and the Coupe de la Ligue (Ney won 2 of those: 2017–18, 2019–20). Worth noting that only the top 2 divisions in France are fully professional. Farmer's League indeed (I kid, I kid).

Very solid career and it's a bit harsh to say it was a letdown. But I'll always think about what if he stayed at Barca instead of PSG. If he had been there with Messi in the late teens, they probably could've done some special things. SNM (as I call it) was a crazy front line, and Messi's 50 yard diagonal dimes to Ney in the box are something I'll never forget. As much as I dislike the guy, he was absolutely one of the best and most electric players of his generation. He made a personal choice to leave and it's hard to fault him for that.

What say you re Neymar?

(A) met your expectations
(B) exceeded your expectations
(C) didn't meet your expectations
(D) You forgot to list his 6 Fall on d'Floors
Probably met expectations or exceeded expectations from a club perspective. He was often labeled as the next best player in the world post-Messi and Ronaldo, but he never really achieved that, partly due to the longevity and consistency of the other two.

He was the Next Great Brazilian, and he was.
I think the bolded is a really good point. Regardless of where he fits into the broader picture, Brazil was expecting him to lead the nation and he did. He was better in his late 20s than his early 20s which for a player of his style I find a bit surprising, but he delivered on being one of the best players in the world for the most important soccer nation.

I think the "problem" with Neymar was that the hype was always bigger than him, maybe bigger than any player ever could be. From the time he blew up on the scene at Santos, he was supposed to be the next Messi/Ronaldo and he start getting press treatment like it. He also started to act like it a bit with the big entourage, the daily haircuts, his dad getting huge fees for facilitating transfers...it all created an image that Neymar could never live up, with generated the backlash. If he had Mo Salah's trajectory - from a small footballing nation, up through a 2nd tier European league, transfer a few more times before emerging as a great player - people would see Neymar completely differently. Except for the flopping, which became a kind of absurdist performance art.

He was the third best player in the world at his peak and most fans will never forgive him for it.
Another really good pithy quote. He had immense expectations and he met MOST of them. But I don't think anyone is arguing that he got the most out of himself that he could've. No shame in that either--it's quite rare to have the skill and dedication of a Messi or CR7. But I think he was one of the few that could approach them in terms of talent.

A, B, and C

I think in some ways he was a victim of the era. He was better for longer than Ronaldinho, which exceeded expectations for me. His trophies for Barca were along the lines of what I expected, and he was influential in that Champions League final against Juve as well as the comeback against PSG. He had moments of insane brilliance that I’ll never forget.

He played in an era with Messi and CR7. Most expected him to replace them as the best in the world. Part of that expectation was that those two would fade, but they didn’t. Usually the greats are in the conversation for the best in the world for a few seasons at their peak before fitness fades or lifestyle wears them down (Rooney, Ronaldinho etc). Messi and Cristiano just kept going though. He was among the first Brazilians to make the move to a huge club (Rivaldo to Depor, Ronaldinho to PSG- different owners, Ronaldo Fenómeno to PSV). Players weren’t thrown directly into the brightest lights that early in their careers. Also, players from Brazil were more or less unknown until they moved, cooked for a few years at a smaller club, then made a big jump. Now we all know these guys well beforehand.

He’s Brazils all time leading scorer but he didn’t win a World Cup. That matters to a lot of Brazilians.

Adnvanced statistics will likely never reward him because of how he impacted opponents mentally. The way extra eyes had to be on him, how a second (and a third, then a fourth) defender had to be aware of him with the ball, and how players backed off of him, afraid of being on the wrong end of a highlight video, allowing a pass or a shot that wouldn’t otherwise be there.

He might go down in history as in the top ten ever to lace them up, but never better than third playing at his time.
I think his role in that PSG comeback was his brightest in the Barca shirt. He was a more electric player than Messi by that time (Messi was transitioning to emphasizing his playmaking) and my recollection of that time is that the players looked to him to solve problems.

Wait what? Neymar wasn't a flop or anything but he probably isn't one of the 100 best players to ever play, let alone top ten.

Also, Kaka went straight from Sao Paulo to AC Milan, the reigning European Champions, and immediately won Serie A Player of the Year in his debut campaign.
I know Yaz explained there was a typo, but truly Neymar probably sits around 50th all time for me. I can rattle off 25 better than him without thinking too hard, and I'm sure there's another 10-20 I could get to with some effort.

I was just laughing to myself because if Mo was Brazilian - if Salahino was a star for Liverpool but never Barca or Real, if he couldn’t drag Brazil to a World Cup victory - he’d be seen as a disappointment, too. The expectations placed on these young men are insane.

Which also helps us appreciate Messi all the more. He picked up Argentina’s heavy mantle, shouldered Maradona’s legacy, and built his own brilliant career.
It almost broke Messi several times, and it took a really strong supporting cast (Julian, Mac, Romero, Emi MF Martinez, Romero, Di Maria, De Paul, et al.) and a really intelligent manager in Scaloni to get the most out of Messi for country.

Meanwhile CR7's trophy cabinet for Portugal would be bare but for Éder -- after Ronaldo went off injured ;)

Can't help but think Neymar was anything but a disappointment in terms of his lack of longevity, proneness to injury, and apparent lack of diligence in his recovery. He was unplayable on his day, but his peak was about half of what it should have been.
I think the bolded represents my most prominent thoughts when it comes to Ney.

Neymar will be long remembered for this, at least...

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pgc5ipQ9bFE
Thank you for this.

I was going to qualify it with “teenager” but Neymar was 21 when he moved to Barca (and I think Kaka was 22 when he moved to Milan). Overall point was that few players make the jump from Brazil to huge European clubs.

Typo on the “10”. Meant to put discussion for top 30, but you would disagree with that anyways.
Yeah I think when you are talking all-time, it would be hard to rate Neymar all that high, his peak being the third best attacking player on his own team for a few years, and that peak not being all that long. I'd personally rate Luis Suarez above Neymar...and Luis Suarez isn't even the best Luis Suarez to ever play for Barcelona!
There should be exactly 0.00% doubt that Luisito Chompers was a better player than Ney. Where I think it gets interesting is with guys like Robben, Ribery, Muller, Hazard. Those guys aren't top 25 all time (maybe Muller is) but they still might be ahead of Ney. I'd have to go into stats personally.

One of the beautiful parts of the game is that it's all in what we like to watch (and sometimes who we watch more of). For me, there is the elite class (Messi, Maradona, Pele) then a near-elite class of like 20 players (CR7, Fenomeno etc) that I put guys like Garnacho in because I never saw him play- started really watching in the late 80s/early 90s. Beyond that there are like 100 players in the next tier, including a lot of that Barcelona team (Suarez, Xavi, Iniesta, and Neymar), that were in Balon d'Or nominations but not at the level as the guys before them. Within those tiers, I could see arguments for anyone to be better, and I could see arguments for players to be moved up or down tiers. I'm a La Liga fan, and a Catalan at that, so I probably rate certain players more by familiarity or stylistic preference. I would understand someone saying Neymar isn't top 100 because he flops and the way he plays isn't how some prefer the game to be played. I see a player who did things that nobody else could do on a soccer field who was Brazil's all time leading scorer (Pele had more goals per game, but he's already rated well above Neymar). Personally, I never really rated guys like Lampard or Gerrard as highly, but that again is my preference. I also tend to rate players in later generations higher than those in earlier ones as I have seen how much better players are in general, both in talent and overall fitness, than 30 years ago.

In other words, you rate him lower for completely legitimate reasons, and I don't disagree. There is just too much nuance and ways to enjoy the game, and we just like different things. I just rate him higher for what I think are legitimate reasons.
If Neymar had leveled up his game as much as Messi did his, he would have won WC for Brazil.

But Brazil’s failuresduring Neymar’s career are hardly all Neymar’s fault. The lack of trophies isn’t on him.

if that makes sense.

on Brazils own terms
Neymar wouldn't be in my Top 100 because his peak was relatively short, he wasn't really in the best in the world conversation at that peak, and the game has been played in a major, organized way, for well over 100 years. It's easy to only rate players that we've seen in person or live, or are intimately familiar with how the game was played in an era. But when we use the term ALL-TIME, it would be absurd to disqualify 80% of all players or so because they played in a different, perhaps less overall competitive era. That would be like dismissing Willie Mays or Bill Russell.
 

Kliq

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There should be exactly 0.00% doubt that Luisito Chompers was a better player than Ney. Where I think it gets interesting is with guys like Robben, Ribery, Muller, Hazard. Those guys aren't top 25 all time (maybe Muller is) but they still might be ahead of Ney. I'd have to go into stats personally.
I'd have Neymar probably ahead of all those guys except Muller. I think we've talked about this before, but Muller to me is an incredibly underrated player. I think the big reason is that when people think of a #10 they think of a slippery dynamo or fleet-footed assassin, like Ronaldinho, or they think of an elegant, technical wonder like Zidane or Iniesta, pinging smart passes all over the field and controlling the game.

If you lined up all the all-time great attacking midfielders in the game's history, you could argue that Thomas Muller has the least amount of natural talent among them. Rarely would his goals blow up a highlight reel, or inspire wonder from fans. Nike wasn't tripping over themselves trying to make him the next great star like they did for Neymar. Outside of Munich it's hard to think many kids have grown up with posters of Muller on their walls.

It's a very German problem, because whatever Muller lacked in obvious talent he more than made up for with ruthless efficiency and productivity. Only Messi and Francesco Totti can also claim at least 150 goals and 150 assists in a Big 5 league since 1990. His 172 career assists are the second most over that time span behind Messi. He's the 7th leading goal scorer in the history of the Champions League, from a midfield position. His teams are always good and he's won literally everything there is to win as a player.

IDK if I would have him in my Top 25-30 of all time though, just off the top of my head any list would have to probably start with

Pele
Messi
Maradona
Ronaldo #7
Ronaldo #9
Eusebio
Puskas
Alfredo di Stefano
Franz Beckenbauer
Maldini
Platini
Cruyff
Marco Van Basten
Gerd Muller
Josef Bican
Lev Yashin
Giuseppe Meazza
Garrincha
Gunnar Nordahl
Stanley Matthews
Bobby Charlton
Jose Manuel Moreno
 

Zososoxfan

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I'd have Neymar probably ahead of all those guys except Muller. I think we've talked about this before, but Muller to me is an incredibly underrated player. I think the big reason is that when people think of a #10 they think of a slippery dynamo or fleet-footed assassin, like Ronaldinho, or they think of an elegant, technical wonder like Zidane or Iniesta, pinging smart passes all over the field and controlling the game.

If you lined up all the all-time great attacking midfielders in the game's history, you could argue that Thomas Muller has the least amount of natural talent among them. Rarely would his goals blow up a highlight reel, or inspire wonder from fans. Nike wasn't tripping over themselves trying to make him the next great star like they did for Neymar. Outside of Munich it's hard to think many kids have grown up with posters of Muller on their walls.

It's a very German problem, because whatever Muller lacked in obvious talent he more than made up for with ruthless efficiency and productivity. Only Messi and Francesco Totti can also claim at least 150 goals and 150 assists in a Big 5 league since 1990. His 172 career assists are the second most over that time span behind Messi. He's the 7th leading goal scorer in the history of the Champions League, from a midfield position. His teams are always good and he's won literally everything there is to win as a player.

IDK if I would have him in my Top 25-30 of all time though, just off the top of my head any list would have to probably start with

Pele
Messi
Maradona
Ronaldo #7
Ronaldo #9
Eusebio
Puskas
Alfredo di Stefano
Franz Beckenbauer
Maldini
Platini
Cruyff
Marco Van Basten
Gerd Muller
Josef Bican
Lev Yashin
Giuseppe Meazza
Garrincha
Gunnar Nordahl
Stanley Matthews
Bobby Charlton
Jose Manuel Moreno
I think Zidane, Henry, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Cannavaro, Neuer, Luis Suarez, and Xavi, pretty much have to be in somehow.

Other guys that are in this convo: Batigol, Zico, Romario, Buffon, Modric, Iniesta, Zanetti, Baggio, Ramos, Giggs, Figo, Kaka

Modern guys that might deserve consideration and at least a shout out: Zlatan, Benzema, Kante, Lewandowski, Drogba, Di Maria, Busquets, Cafu, Roberto Carlos, Raul, Eto'o, Giroud, David Villa, Rooney, Scholes, Pirlo, Bergkamp, Totti, Puyol, Nesta, Shearer
 

67YAZ

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I think Zidane, Henry, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Cannavaro, Neuer, Luis Suarez, and Xavi, pretty much have to be in somehow.

Other guys that are in this convo: Batigol, Zico, Romario, Buffon, Modric, Iniesta, Zanetti, Baggio, Ramos, Giggs, Figo, Kaka

Modern guys that might deserve consideration and at least a shout out: Zlatan, Benzema, Kante, Lewandowski, Drogba, Di Maria, Busquets, Cafu, Roberto Carlos, Raul, Eto'o, Giroud, David Villa, Rooney, Scholes, Pirlo, Bergkamp, Totti, Puyol, Nesta, Shearer
What’s Mo Salah got to do beat out David Villa?
 

Kliq

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Yeah there is a huge list of names, a lot of the more recent names I sometimes find overrated, but it really depends what you want to focus on. Ronaldinho to me is a very back end Top 100 player--the best player in the world for a very brief period of time who played the game with joy and incredible skill, but also wasn't nearly as prolific as most people remember, took bad care of himself, and crashed out as an elite player early.

I love Mo Salah and think he has been underrated for most of his career. Incredibly consistent player at the highest level, and really elevated a club to the pinnacle of the game.
 

67YAZ

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My list wasn't exhaustive, and Salah should be on it!
Giving you a hard time! I went back and looked at Villa’s stats because of this & I didn’t remember how great he was before getting to Barca. And of course, he was the perfect complimentary piece at Barca.

But if he was Salahino we’d never forget him!
 

Kliq

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Eusebio is obviously the greatest African player of all-time, but as far as players that actually represented African nations, I think it's a conversation between George Weah and Salah.
 

rguilmar

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Giving you a hard time! I went back and looked at Villa’s stats because of this & I didn’t remember how great he was before getting to Barca. And of course, he was the perfect complimentary piece at Barca.

But if he was Salahino we’d never forget him!
David Villa is probably the most chronically underrated player in Spain. He did the bulk of his scoring at Valencia, and lots of fans dismiss that because it wasn't at Barca or Real. Then he moved to Barcelona and still scored plenty, then these same people said he was a JAG who benefitted from starting alongside Messi, Iniesta, Xavi and the rest. People say the same about his time with the national team, that he benefitted from the talent around him. I imagine a lot had to do with his more quiet public personality. He replaced Raul for La Roja, and followed Eto'o and Zlatan (there's a controversial name- where does he fit in a top 100?) at Barca. He also made it look insanely easy. That being said, I would probably put him towards the bottom of Zoso's modern list of names to consider.
 

Kliq

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Villa was also really good in MLS when he was overshadowed by flashier names.

Soccer is such a hard game to assess individual ability that ranking players is pretty impossible. Fit and form are so important, how many players have been great in one situation and then bombed when they moved somewhere else? I feel like most lists focus way too much on recent players who played for big clubs and won things, which does a huge disservice given that only a handful of teams win anything anymore. Attacking players in Pep's Barcelona did not make up six of the 30 best players of all-time.