Global Football Odds & Ends
- Thread starter Titans Bastard
- Start date
This is one of the things I love about sport. Two people can look at the same incident and see two completely different things.
I have cooled a bit over the years, and I can appreciate the self sacrifice angle. I can’t come away from feeling it was one of the biggest cheats in the history of the game, not as iconic as Maradona’s hand of god but just as bad. It was so egregious they changed the rule to give the goal if the situation were happen again. He did something so over the line they didn’t think they needed a rule.
Looking back over his career, Suarez is ridiculously talented, but clearly a super competitive and very troubled man. He should have been booted from the game entirely after the second time he bit somebody, but he’s somehow become a lovable old man as he plays out his career in Miami. Tough to forgive that and, you know, the racism.
As a fellow Liverpool fan, I feel all of this. What a brilliant player, an absolute soccer genius. I watched him do things as a Red I've never seen anywhere else and probably never will.
That said, my Ghanaian friends still seeth over this moment They may laugh initially, but ask a follow-up question and you'll get a rant. It was heartbreaking. The Black Stars should have been the first African WC semi-finalists and maybe even finalists. Asamoah Gyan has a complicated place in national team history - he earned 109 caps and is both Ghana's all time leading scorer and the Africa's all time leading scorer at WCs. But that crossbar is still reverberating...
Nothing I disagree with here at all. I suppose what I would say is that I appreciate the mentality of any player or team who does whatever it takes within the rules to win the game. I’m not going to defend Suarez’s other actions which are reprehensible. But the fact is that he and another player had it in mind to sacrifice themselves to save their team, and I respect that attempt. He deserved a red and he knew it the moment he made the save. But he also know Uruguay were done if that ball crossed the line, so he did the only thing that would give his team a chance at winning. It didn’t hurt anyone or risk anything. Just because Suarez has done other terrible things on a soccer field doesn’t make this a good thing for Uruguay. If the other defender on the line had gotten his hand on the ball (as he was trying to do) it would not change anything for me.
Ah, I think I've pinpointed the divide here.
The notion of soccer as a game starts with the fundamental idea that "you can't play with your hands". Yes, goalkeepers, throw-ins, whatever - it's still the basic notion of the game, as much as "you can't run with the ball" in basketball, or "you start every play on your own side" in football, or hitting the ball in play and running to a base in baseball. If you're explaining the game to a child, it's the first thing out of your mouth. Everyone understands this.
With what he did, it wasn't just a moment of competitiveness overcoming him and drawing a foul maybe a bit too intense as he tried to win the ball. He rejected the whole notion that games have rules, and that rules are what makes the game. Without rules, you have no game, you just have some jungle-esque physical struggle that is neither pretty nor athletic. It's why it's worth playing, and why it's worth watching. The notion of a game itself assumes that players are always more or less trying to follow the rules of the game, nevermind buying into the baseline concept that rules are important, that allowed behavior in a contest should have limits at all.
I think that's why Suarez's actions reverberated so loudly, for so many neutrals, nevermind Ghanaians or Africans in particular. Suarez's act was more unsporting than a bad foul, even a red-card foul, because it took advantage of the idea that everyone else was playing by the rules, and he decided he didn't have to. Didn't even have to consider the ethics that we normally like to ascribe to playing sports, that we learn alongside playing sports. The rest of us were trying to have a civilization here, and to Suarez, the whole world is a jungle. If he wasn't good with kicking a ball, he might well have been a drug kingpin, showing contempt for society's laws as flagrantly as he defied the IFAB's most basic laws of the game. He was an uncivilized animal showing us that we puny, cowardly (in his eyes) morons wanted him to refrain from something, but he, superman that he is, was prepared to do anything he could physically do to achieve his ends. Bite an opponent's ear off, say. Rules don't apply to Suarez, in his view, and never was his utter contempt for the concept on fuller display than in that moment. And then tried to "incredulous" his way out of it, too. He was only sorry that he'd got caught.
Yeah, if the other guy had gotten his arm on it, I'd have said the same thing. But he wasn't nearly as famous or gifted as Suarez, in fact I don't even know his name. And Suarez has enough else happen in his career that we can view it as a large datapoint in a bigger trend. Perhaps we can view the other guy raising his arm to indicate that this concept, this contempt for rules as being for sissies, was part of Uruguay's team culture, part of what's coached into them. I dunno. But even if it did, it wouldn't make the actions any less egregious, imo.
Holy shit, @InstaFace. You just articulated what was beyond my ability to grasp. Thank you, sincerely, for putting the words to what was just an emotion.
He is undoubtedly that, though I'll take prime Zlatan, personally. Another guy whose calling card was being audacious. There is something about the striker position that calls for audacity, and an aggression, an attitude bordering on savage. We all want some degree of savage in our strikers, even if we want refinement, even intellectualism, in our playmakers. Suarez kind of holds up an epitome of that for us, like a mirror, and asks us "Do you really want this? Seems like you do!"
Again, I don’t disagree with anything here. For me, I put the handball on par with a tactical foul to prevent a goal scoring chance. Players intentionally break the rules to prevent goals or goal scoring chances all of the time. Perhap my using “within the rules” was the wrong phrase. Clearly Suarez broke a rule, and he did the risk/reward calculations of doing so in that split second (as did his teammate). The point of tactical fouls, which players willingly get carded for, is to prevent the opponent from scoring. This is all one and the same to me. We disagree on what constitutes being in the spirit of the game, you think this is not in the spirit of the game, and I don’t see a problem with it. We just look at the game differently, which as @SocrManiac notes, is one of the great things about soccer and why old men argue about it for hours at cafes around the world.
I do wonder how much our own personal “soccer backgrounds” play a role in how we see the game in general and plays like the one we’ve been talking about. As a kid, I played mostly with Sicilian kids who had no problem taking your knees out to stop a goal. Later it was mostly young men from Central and South America who generally thought you can’t even look anyone in the face if you haven’t given every ounce to winning. Those game were really rough and I don’t think my mid-40s body could handle it now, but those guys definitely had no problem with the Saurez handball and would fully expect anyone on their team to do the same. Most of my family in Spain though considers it at least a slightly dirty play, but not surprisingly the degree of dirtiness aligns closely with whether the family member is a Barcelona fan or Espanyol fan (Suarez was at Barca at the time).
One of the more blatant or overt differences amongst Footie’s worldwide audience is the opinion on what constitutes valid cheating. The Suarez handball , like the Hand of God are great examples of this. Another is faking injuries. I would say those raised in the Anglo-American part of the world have far less tolerance for extreme forms of cheating. Sticking your hand up to block a sure goal is not the same as tackling a guy for a DOGSO. Faking decapitation to draw a red isn’t the same as diving to get a PEN.
I don’t know , and it’s probably stupid to even try to understand why different cultures view it differently. If I had to guess it’s the degree of passion invested in the sport. Faking injuries was the hardest thing to become accustomed to when I first started watching 30 years ago. In North American sports it’s just not done. Do that in a hockey game and you’d suffer some very real consequences from your peers.
Spanish host stadiums for World Cup 2030 were announced.
View: https://twitter.com/sidlowe/status/1813904842949050803?s=46&t=XvGOrrWIyL-5CHVVL_0JYQ
General thoughts:
My assumption as that the new Bernabéu will get the final.
I think the big miss is Valencia. They have had a semi completed new stadium for over a decade now, and this was the chance for Spain to help get it done. Espanyol getting on the list is uninspiring (the stadium is fine) as it feels like it was included to make sure the city of Barcelona got two to match Madrid. Both the Madrid stadiums are great.
A few stadiums are smaller and will need an expansion:
Reale Arena in San Sebastián was recently renovated but falls just short of 40k
Riazor in A Coruña is due for an update as they missed out on the infrastructure money because Depor was in the 3rd tier (money was distributed to the La Liga and Segunda clubs)
Estadio Gran Canaria in Las Palmas is smaller and needs about 8000 more seats
The Romereda in Zaragoza needs about 20k new seats. They do have the deepest nets I’ve seen in years.
The Rosaleda in Malaga is gorgeous but needs about 10k seats.
La Cartuja is a terrible place to watch a game but I assume it will be renovated after Betis finish the Benito Villamarin (they will play at La Cartuja during the renovations). San Mamés is the best place to watch a game on that list. I hope the US gets a game there.
View: https://twitter.com/sidlowe/status/1813904842949050803?s=46&t=XvGOrrWIyL-5CHVVL_0JYQ
General thoughts:
My assumption as that the new Bernabéu will get the final.
I think the big miss is Valencia. They have had a semi completed new stadium for over a decade now, and this was the chance for Spain to help get it done. Espanyol getting on the list is uninspiring (the stadium is fine) as it feels like it was included to make sure the city of Barcelona got two to match Madrid. Both the Madrid stadiums are great.
A few stadiums are smaller and will need an expansion:
Reale Arena in San Sebastián was recently renovated but falls just short of 40k
Riazor in A Coruña is due for an update as they missed out on the infrastructure money because Depor was in the 3rd tier (money was distributed to the La Liga and Segunda clubs)
Estadio Gran Canaria in Las Palmas is smaller and needs about 8000 more seats
The Romereda in Zaragoza needs about 20k new seats. They do have the deepest nets I’ve seen in years.
The Rosaleda in Malaga is gorgeous but needs about 10k seats.
La Cartuja is a terrible place to watch a game but I assume it will be renovated after Betis finish the Benito Villamarin (they will play at La Cartuja during the renovations). San Mamés is the best place to watch a game on that list. I hope the US gets a game there.
And subsequently pulled out - supposedly got cold feet - concern over stadium costs and the debacle that’s the French TV deal
Thanks for posting. You obviously know a ton more about this, but I take some solace that this is a proposed list.
Copying the list below for ease and comment:
Anoeta (Donostia-San Sebastian). Fuck yes.
Camp Nou (Barcelona). Big mistake assuming it's done by then ;-)
Gran Canaria (Las Palmas). Uhhhh, what?!? Why??!? This is not convenient by any stretch.
Estadio La Cartuja (Seville). Why not play at the Villamarin or R.S. Pizjuan?? Villamarin holds 60K and the Pizjuan holds 44K. Both should be in consideration.
The Rose Garden (Malaga). OK.
Metropolitan (Madrid). Obvi.
New Romareda (Zaragoza). No idea.
RCDE Stadium (Barcelona, Cornella-El Prat). This is a new stadium and Barcelona is one of the easiest cities to fly into.
Riazor (A Coruna). Yes please.
San Mames (Bilbao). Yes FUCKING please.
Santiago Bernabeu (Madrid). Obvi.
Agree that Mestalla is a big miss. Others that I would've expected to have a chance are the Nueva Condomina in Murcia and the Carlos Tartiere in Oviedo. But most importantly, they need to get Gran Canaria off the list.
For Gran Canaria it might be because of its location close to southern Morocco (another host) so while inconvenient to the rest of Spain it might be convenient to one or two of the Moroccan sites. Or it might have been an early concession to get more host stadiums than Morocco by giving their fans in southern Morocco access to a closer location in Spain.
I’m sure they didn’t want to deal with the Sevilla vs. Betis (Benito Villamarin renovations begin soon) fallout and La Cartuja needs a renovation, so this might be a “kill two birds with one stone” sort of thing. They generally kept themselves out of major rivalries (no Oviedo or Gijón, both Barcelona teams etc) with the exception of Galicia. A Coruña is a financial center for sure, but Balaidos in Vigo is almost done with their renovations. I’m with you on Riazor but understand Celta’s frustration.
Malaga and Zaragoza are both top five cities in Spain by population and have host the national team recently.
I had forgotten about the Morrocco co-host component. Canary Islands make some more sense there.
They should've considered Mallorca, but the stadium(s) probably aren't big enough. Still, visiting there for the WC would be a blast.
Lots of reports floating around that Bordeaux FC are closing up shop & releasing all players from contracts.
View: https://twitter.com/thesecretscout_/status/1816501478502052267?s=46&t=GfuLFvTYcOxcFiCZjyIYZw
View: https://twitter.com/thesecretscout_/status/1816501478502052267?s=46&t=GfuLFvTYcOxcFiCZjyIYZw
That is wild and terrible. They had some great teams in the not-too-distant past. That late 2000s team led by Laurent Blanc that had Yoann Gourcuff and Marouane Chamakh was fun to watch and won Ligue 1. I remember them getting out of a Champions League group that had Bayern and Juve. Too bad.
My favorite part of that bit is that Miles' trophy wine, Cheval Blanc '61--the one he ends up drinking out of styrofoam at the end--is a blend of merlot and Cabernet Franc. Well played writers, well played.
Spygate, the Canadian version
View: https://twitter.com/tsn_sports/status/1816610207100993648?s=46&t=XvGOrrWIyL-5CHVVL_0JYQ
View: https://twitter.com/tsn_sports/status/1816610207100993648?s=46&t=XvGOrrWIyL-5CHVVL_0JYQ
The women’s coach has been removed by the Canadian Olympic Committee and suspended by the federation.
View: https://twitter.com/rwesthead/status/1816618801368051789?s=46&t=XvGOrrWIyL-5CHVVL_0JYQ
View: https://twitter.com/rwesthead/status/1816618801368051789?s=46&t=XvGOrrWIyL-5CHVVL_0JYQ
Dayam, she was a rising star too. Makes you wonder if she beat the USA fair and square in the Tokyo Olympics semifinals.
Seems like a bit of a scapegoat situation if it’s been the entire federation across men’s and women’s teams.
It’s maybe a directive from higher up in the federation, or if you look at common denominators between the teams it could absolutely also just be a John Herdman thing.
It’s maybe a directive from higher up in the federation, or if you look at common denominators between the teams it could absolutely also just be a John Herdman thing.
That was one of my favourite revenge wins as a fan. This seems like the reverse of spygate in that it is real.
Is this a thing i soccer?
The whole story broke because the Canadian team in Paris was caught flying a drone over the New Zealand practice. Priestman wasn’t on the sidelines for the game. Other allegations have come since, but suspending Priestman seems reasonable given that the initial incident was in France at the Olympics and it seems like she removed herself from coaching the New Zealand game, which it’s fair to assume is a sign of culpability.
Yeah, Priestman is totally part of it, so scapegoat was too strong. It seems to go well beyond her though was the point I meant to emphasize.
The TSN story is pretty damning … Soccer Canada is in a pretty shaky condition as is. Heads are going to roll.
Well … the drone part is new - but teams spying on each other has been around for decades. This is going to be just like the Ben Johnson scandal … everyone was cheating but he got caught and had his career destroyed .
when you think about it, using a drone to spy is pretty stupid. Sure , you get a bird’s eye view of the planned formation and lineup - but the drone is easily spotted - so a smart team could show off a fake formation.
Don’t know if it helped but it was used ..
https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5660501/2024/07/26/bev-priestman-canada-soccer-olympics-suspension-drone-usage-culture/?source=user_shared_articleCanada Soccer CEO reveals drone usage at Copa, concerned about ‘deeply embedded systemic culture’
Would really suck if Marsch was in on that, because it'll follow him around. I kinda wanted to root for him actually being a good and effective manager.
Tim Weah channeling his inner Luis Suarez in a friendly.
View: https://twitter.com/usmntvshaters/status/1816896459989561635?s=46&t=XvGOrrWIyL-5CHVVL_0JYQ
View: https://twitter.com/usmntvshaters/status/1816896459989561635?s=46&t=XvGOrrWIyL-5CHVVL_0JYQ
I'm wondering if the plan is to have the teams flying back from South America, having played in the opening games, play their second matches in GC. Knocks a couple of hours off the intercontinental flight from Buenos Aires, I think. (I still can't get over what a shitshow that part of the plan is).
Likely have to land in Madrid, Barca, or Casablanca to connect, so not much of a shortcut if at all.
It's FIFA, nothing gets in the way of money. That's how anything seemingly dumb happens.
This I think is pushing up against my limited knowledge of how aviation works. Does the airport in GC not have the capacity to handle long distance flights?
Things keep looking worse for our friendly northern neighbors.
View: https://twitter.com/tsn_sports/status/1816961453854728647?s=46&t=XvGOrrWIyL-5CHVVL_0JYQ
View: https://twitter.com/tsn_sports/status/1816961453854728647?s=46&t=XvGOrrWIyL-5CHVVL_0JYQ
Herdman had a somewhat cagily worded denial focused on having not done it at World Cups or Olympics at a Toronto FC press conference, so very bad look for him if true.
Given how Herdman shaped the commonalities between their mens' and womens' programs are, I suspect he's going to come out of this looking like absolute dogshit.
Given how Herdman shaped the commonalities between their mens' and womens' programs are, I suspect he's going to come out of this looking like absolute dogshit.
To me the lack of outrage over teams that lost to Canada recently makes me wonder if other people are up to this. Maybe they are just biding their time though.
They're also in an important tournament right now, and would (rightly) say that their focus is on the present, not the past. Like, who wants the attention being taken off the Olympics and possible medal contention? What for? Who would gain? Certainly not the top teams hoping to make the podium in two weeks.
There's investigations going on, rumors and (what are probably) half-truths being bandied about. When results start getting announced, I expect some shots to be taken.
I was referring to retired USA players like Rapinoe or Solo. But both of therm tend to shy away from the spotlight.