Gesicki signs with Pats

BigJimEd

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Jeudy has one more year left, right? I don't think Denver picked up his 5th year option, AFAIK. So it would require trading probably a 2nd round pick (maybe something else as well) and THEN extending Jeudy, which probably would be pretty expensive.

So that would be a very big move for the Pats to make. Worth it? I don't know. He's a good receiver, obviously. But he's not a burner. 4.46 time in the 40. That's not bad, obviously, but it's not exactly greased lightning either. The average 40 time for a WR at the combine is 4.48, so he's a tick faster than average, but not exactly Tyreek Hill or Tyquan Thornton in terms of raw speed. He is a good route runner though, and combined with pretty decent speed makes him tough to defend.
Deadline for 5th year option is not until May. 5th year option for Jeudy would be a little under $13M
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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That's the thing, I don't think they were missing that dimension. Hunter Henry was that dimension. To an extent so was Jakobi Meyers. Don't get me wrong, if it's third and goal from the 4 and you can put Gesicki out there with Henry, Schuster and Bourne out of shotgun, I think your redzone offense will improve, I just don't get why they are focusing on loading up on big body inside receivers with meh speed and agility. They are all good players, just very overlapping in what they can do for an offense in my mind.

After three years of teams talking about the Pats offense being easy to defend, I'm not sure these moves are meaningfully stressing opposing defenses. Now, add Jeudy to the equation and it'll be a different story.
Neither Henry or Meyers have the skillset Gesicki has.

I think @sodenj5 hits it well. He isn't going to make great releases - something Meyers and Henry seemed to excel at - but he can make contested catches and, more importantly, stretch the seam with straight line speed/size.

We had Gronk for years, so we know how much that matters, but this is another BB special where he tries to stack the board with as many suisse army knives as possible. Create mismatches, attack them relentlessly.

Follow my non-caffeinated maze of logic:

By now, we're all aware of JuJu's inadequacy against man coverage. One of the best ways to beat man coverage is by stretching and pressuring the defense.

While Gesicki already chips away at that with his size and contested catch ability, It also puts a ton of pressure on a large chunk of man formations. Unless a team is going man cover-0 (rare), there's at least one or two safeties deep to help over the top. People scream for a WR to take the top off a defense, but only a few WRs have the kind of ability/speed to actually beat their man and the safety help over the top consistently.

In order for a lot of teams to succeed more consistently, they use players from the slot or LOS (tight ends) to also stretch the field. Obviously the better a a player can do this, the longer the safety over the top has to freeze to determine which stretch to help cover.

Neither Henry or Meyers are field stretchers. They are technical route runners, but they aren't straining the safeties. Gesicki is. And Im going to be carefully watching how he impacts guys like Parker and Thornton. If people line up man heavy to slam JuJu, they now have the pieces to attempt to make them pay.

Create mismatches. Attack the match-ups.

Shit. I really need more coffee.
 

rodderick

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Just a fun little game. One of these is Hunter Henry the past three years, one is Mike Gesicki's past three years and the other is Scott Chandler's three years before joining the Pats. Not a knock on Gesicki with the Chandler comp, just another guy the Pats acquired of a similar profile.
62299
 

BaseballJones

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If the Pats somehow get Jeudy, and roll with a receiving corps of Parker, Thornton, Jeudy, JuJu, Bourne, and Gesicki (mainly), we will need to remember that there is STILL just one football to go around. And so there will be guys whose stats are less than expected, even if the overall offense does really well.
 

Average Game James

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If the Pats somehow get Jeudy, and roll with a receiving corps of Parker, Thornton, Jeudy, JuJu, Bourne, and Gesicki (mainly), we will need to remember that there is STILL just one football to go around. And so there will be guys whose stats are less than expected, even if the overall offense does really well.
My guess is they wouldn't keep 5 WR that don't play on special teams - if they add Jeudy or another top receiver, I would think one of Bourne or Parker is sent out.
 

BigSoxFan

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My guess is they wouldn't keep 5 WR that don't play on special teams - if they add Jeudy or another top receiver, I would think one of Bourne or Parker is sent out.
Tend to agree. Parker is 30 and the team can cut him without any cap penalty, if I'm not mistaken. They also probably want to give Thornton more opportunities to develop. Feels like Parker would be the vet cut if a move for a top WR somehow happens. For now, they can hold onto him as they (hopefully) are searching for someone more impactful.
 

BigJimEd

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My guess is they wouldn't keep 5 WR that don't play on special teams - if they add Jeudy or another top receiver, I would think one of Bourne or Parker is sent out.
It would be similar to last year. Swap out Meyers and Agholor for JuJu and Jeudy.
 

BaseballJones

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My guess is they wouldn't keep 5 WR that don't play on special teams - if they add Jeudy or another top receiver, I would think one of Bourne or Parker is sent out.
That could be. Either way, the point remains - I've run the numbers, even assuming a 5,000 yard season from Mac. You can't do it so that everyone has really good numbers. There's always going to be a couple of guys that look like they're having disappointing seasons stat-wise.
 

rodderick

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That could be. Either way, the point remains - I've run the numbers, even assuming a 5,000 yard season from Mac. You can't do it so that everyone has really good numbers. There's always going to be a couple of guys that look like they're having disappointing seasons stat-wise.
Parker at this point is a matchup guy that they should use sparingly in my mind. Thornton isn't at the point in his development where you go into a season expecting him to get a significant number of targets and if he develops you just play him over Bourne and give him those snaps. I think there's plenty to go around, it's not like the offense has 4 number one guys.
 

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He can’t. Again I’ve watched him for 5 years.
I haven’t watched him that closely but I’ve watched every single Pats Fins game in detail and I watched him coming out and I agree with you 100%. He’s a big slot and should be treated as such.
 

Ale Xander

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He's an a&&hole, but now he''s our a&&hole. Always hated him. Let's see how this goes.
 

Justthetippett

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FWIW on the Curran and Perry pod Perry dropped that the team is down on Thornton.
This kind of thing makes no sense to me. You drafted a guy, it's your job to see that he succeeds. So you're going to do that by being down on him after his rookie season? I feel like we've been through this with Harry. He might suck, but he also needs to be put in a position to succeed. The entire receiving corps--and for that matter the offense overall--was a shitshow last year. I'd wipe the slate clean and start over with guys like Thornton. He also had his flashes.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Neither Henry or Meyers have the skillset Gesicki has.

I think @sodenj5 hits it well. He isn't going to make great releases - something Meyers and Henry seemed to excel at - but he can make contested catches and, more importantly, stretch the seam with straight line speed/size.

We had Gronk for years, so we know how much that matters, but this is another BB special where he tries to stack the board with as many suisse army knives as possible. Create mismatches, attack them relentlessly.

Follow my non-caffeinated maze of logic:

By now, we're all aware of JuJu's inadequacy against man coverage. One of the best ways to beat man coverage is by stretching and pressuring the defense.

While Gesicki already chips away at that with his size and contested catch ability, It also puts a ton of pressure on a large chunk of man formations. Unless a team is going man cover-0 (rare), there's at least one or two safeties deep to help over the top. People scream for a WR to take the top off a defense, but only a few WRs have the kind of ability/speed to actually beat their man and the safety help over the top consistently.

In order for a lot of teams to succeed more consistently, they use players from the slot or LOS (tight ends) to also stretch the field. Obviously the better a a player can do this, the longer the safety over the top has to freeze to determine which stretch to help cover.

Neither Henry or Meyers are field stretchers. They are technical route runners, but they aren't straining the safeties. Gesicki is. And Im going to be carefully watching how he impacts guys like Parker and Thornton. If people line up man heavy to slam JuJu, they now have the pieces to attempt to make them pay.

Create mismatches. Attack the match-ups.

Shit. I really need more coffee.
This is the best explanation for what is going on.

It's a huge oversimplification to say "Henry and Gesicki are both non-blocking/receiving TEs, so they are redundant and Henry is on the way out.

Henry can be an in-line TE. His blocking is a weakness in his game, but if the biggest problem with the Patriots offense last year was Henry's blocking, they would have won at least one playoff game. I would expect them to add an in-line blocking TE, but I don't think Henry is going anywhere.

I don't think the Pats had good set of skill players for obvious passing downs. No pure receiving back, no pure slot (even though Meyers was very good overall and not the problem on obvious passing downs), not enough guys who could consistently stretch the field/get open. Gesicki should help that.

Whatever else happens, they need to be able to run out an offense that looks like a passing unit and pass the ball (and set up draws to Rhamondre, which he is very good at running). I don't think they ever had that last year.
FWIW on the Curran and Perry pod Perry dropped that the team is down on Thornton.
Disappointing to hear.
 

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Agree with all the posts that they have so much redundancy at pass catcher. It helps to have everyone slide down a notch on the depth chart, but that doesn't seem like it would lead to meaningful improvement. In combination with BOB and Klemm I think they're almost automatically going to be better on offense in 2023 than they were in 2022. But that probably only means league average at best. If I squint, maybe it's a top 1/3 offense, but that's with super Pats colored glasses.
 

BaseballJones

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The key is the OL. If they really shore that up and make it a top ten unit (lots to do to get there), then the offense will be really good.

Just two years ago with a good OL and Mac as a rookie they had a top ten offense. I know it was inconsistent but looking at the whole body of work it was pretty darned good. No reason they can’t be that good again, but IMO it hinges on the offensive line.
 

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I wonder if they are down on him generally, or down on him becuase he isnt turning out like they had hoped after significantly overdrafting him?
Honestly I wouldn't read too much into what they said because it was so vague and IMO stupid.

Looking to what Perry actually said, Perry said that unidentified people affiliated with the team aren't "assuming" or "banking on" Thornton to emerge into a Devonte Smith or Jerry Jeudy or CeeDee Lamb because he hasn't consistently played at that level, but maybe there's a "smidgeon" of chance that he does [it wasn't clear whether the smidgeon was what people "in the building" thought or Perry's own analysis. Seeing that Smith had about 1200 yards Lamb is a consistent 1000 yard a year and up receiver (and Jeudy close to a thousand), I'm not sure that anyone was assuming or banking on a performance like that from Thornton,. I mean sure, I guess it's a little disappointing that they don't think he's going to be an elite NFL WR, but what was was totally unspecified is whether they think he can be a good contributing wide receiver at a level below the Smith/Jeudy/Lamb level

I'm not personally enthusiastic about Thornton's chances of becoming a consistent 1100 yards a season guy, but he coudl have a ton of value if he were say an 800 yard a season guy.
 

j44thor

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Honestly I wouldn't read too much into what they said because it was so vague and IMO stupid.

Looking to what Perry actually said, Perry said that unidentified people affiliated with the team aren't "assuming" or "banking on" Thornton to emerge into a Devonte Smith or Jerry Jeudy or CeeDee Lamb because he hasn't consistently played at that level, but maybe there's a "smidgeon" of chance that he does [it wasn't clear whether the smidgeon was what people "in the building" thought or Perry's own analysis. Seeing that Smith had about 1200 yards Lamb is a consistent 1000 yard a year and up receiver (and Jeudy close to a thousand), I'm not sure that anyone was assuming or banking on a performance like that from Thornton,. I mean sure, I guess it's a little disappointing that they don't think he's going to be an elite NFL WR, but what was was totally unspecified is whether they think he can be a good contributing wide receiver at a level below the Smith/Jeudy/Lamb level

I'm not personally enthusiastic about Thornton's chances of becoming a consistent 1100 yards a season guy, but he coudl have a ton of value if he were say an 800 yard a season guy.
If they ever thought Thornton could come close to a Smith/Lamb/Jeudy type receiver that is a tell that their scouting is flawed. Those 3 were elite college WR with the production and draft capital to show for it. I think if Tyquan could carve out a John Brown type career that should be considered a major success.
 

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This is generally what I've heard other Miami fans say and I'd tend to believe it. I know as Pats fans we kind of want any player they sign, especially one who can be a playmaker like Gesicki on catches, to be able to do the other things but Miami's coaching is strong and clearly Tua and the team can support receivers producing really well. That Gesicki couldn't find a good role blocking or as a tertiary guy to Hill and Waddle seems to support all of this.
Well, that he didn't find a role as a blocker speaks to the fact that he isn't one. But, he was the tertiary guy to Hill and Waddle. He played about 50% of the offensive snaps (Hill and Waddle each played 75%), and he was third on the team in targets, catches, and receiving TDs (he was 4th in receiving yards). Third receiver was just not a big role on the Dolphins last year, with Hill and Waddle hoovering up 42% of the targets.

The year before, Waddle had 78% of the snaps and Gesicki 72%, and Gesicki was second on the team in targets, receptions, and receiving yards (only 2 receiving TDs though).

The year before that, Devante Parker led the team with 68% of snaps and Gesicki second with 58%, and Gesicki was second on the team in targets, receotions, and receiving yards - and first in TD catches.

It doesn't seem like anything has changed with him besides his role.
 

Ale Xander

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Pats have had 2 good TE several times, but usually one of the two was a great blocker (Coates v. Cook, Graham v. Watson, Gronk v. AHerb), so it will be interesting to see how this plays out.
 

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If they ever thought Thornton could come close to a Smith/Lamb/Jeudy type receiver that is a tell that their scouting is flawed. Those 3 were elite college WR with the production and draft capital to show for it. I think if Tyquan could carve out a John Brown type career that should be considered a major success.
I don't think there's any indication that the Pats every thought that Thronton could turn into a "Smith/Lamb/Jeudy" type receiver--hell I think BB would say what the fuck do you mean by a Smith/Lamb/Jeudy receiver, those are three totally different types of players, none of whom are that similar to Thornton beyond the fact that Smith and Thornton are both skinny.I basically assume that Perry is taking what he can from a discussion he had at 2 am at St Elmo's at the combine where he asked if Thornton was going to have a huge breakout year and some junior guy in the pro personnel department said he's not ceedee lamb yet, he needs to string a couple games together first, and voila.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Pats have had 2 good TE several times, but usually one of the two was a great blocker (Coates v. Cook, Graham v. Watson, Gronk v. AHerb), so it will be interesting to see how this plays out.
True.

And while you're not the one saying it, I just want to restate that Jonnu wasn't going to be that guy for the team. He's sucked for two seasons as a blocker here, and for most of his time in Tennessee he was below average as well. That Jonnu signing was such a bad misread, although hard to fault at the time.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Lazar:

https://www.patriots.com/news/analysis-how-will-the-patriots-utilize-mike-gesicki-on-offense-next-season

Returning to the Gesicki acquisition, the Patriots seem to be steering right into going full 2011 mode with O'Brien returning to orchestrate the offense. No, Henry and Gesicki aren't as dynamic as that duo. But it's spread formations to create pace and space, finding matchups in the middle of the field, and likely gun-runs into sub-package defenses coupled with play-action or RPO sequencing.

New England could still target a traditional in-line blocking tight end. However, the necessity to add that skill set is overblown from this vantage point if the plan is to spread things out. Plus, the team trusts Henry on low-stress blocking assignments to hold his ground.
 

SMU_Sox

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It’s strange to me because if they want to zag then going more spread is not the answer. Going more 12 and power IS the answer.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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It’s strange to me because if they want to zag then going more spread is not the answer. Going more 12 and power IS the answer.
Would Gesicki and Henry be a viable tandem on the field at the same time for 12?
 

sezwho

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The key is the OL. If they really shore that up and make it a top ten unit (lots to do to get there), then the offense will be really good.

Just two years ago with a good OL and Mac as a rookie they had a top ten offense. I know it was inconsistent but looking at the whole body of work it was pretty darned good. No reason they can’t be that good again, but IMO it hinges on the offensive line.
This is really where I’m coming from.

Between Mac and BOB, this should be enough talent to execute. Honestly, the sole differentiated skill for Mac is being sharp enough to take what the defense gives, and BOB needs to scheme it up.

Sure I would have loved peak Moss last year, and a new stud WR this year, but doesn’t matter if the QB is lying on his back looking up through his ear hole. Again, if the qb and OC are what they need to be, i think there’s enough talent for them to compete already.
 

Shelterdog

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Would Gesicki and Henry be a viable tandem on the field at the same time for 12?
Unless they get rid of Henry I think the answer seems to be that BOB and BB think they could be viable together, otherwise you're paying an awful lot for a back-up TE who helps out in some goal line/heavy formations. Of course BB seemed to think Henry/Smith would be a viable pairing and they were not.
 

SMU_Sox

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Would Gesicki and Henry be a viable tandem on the field at the same time for 12?
Yes and no. Henry really isn’t a good blocker. You could go nickel and it wouldn’t make a difference. You aren’t going to lure them into base with those two.

BIJAN ROBINSON!!!
We were just having this conversation in the slack. He’s an incredible gap runner and he’s a fit. I’d hate to use 14 on an RB though.
 

Cellar-Door

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Unless they get rid of Henry I think the answer seems to be that BOB and BB think they could be viable together, otherwise you're paying an awful lot for a back-up TE who helps out in some goal line/heavy formations. Of course BB seemed to think Henry/Smith would be a viable pairing and they were not.
THough I will say, some of the Henry/Smith pairing's failure wasn't just blocking, Jonnu despite his athleticism couldn't stretch and impact defenses. You can play 2 TE where one is a pretty bad blocker (Henry) and one doesn't block if you're asking them to mostly do other things and they do it well. Problem for Jonnu/Henry is both were pretty bad blockers AND they didn't do anything else well enough to pair them over just playing Parker or something.
 

DJnVa

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If the Pats somehow get Jeudy, and roll with a receiving corps of Parker, Thornton, Jeudy, JuJu, Bourne, and Gesicki (mainly), we will need to remember that there is STILL just one football to go around. And so there will be guys whose stats are less than expected, even if the overall offense does really well.
Will we care about stats if the team is winning? I really doubt it.
 

BaseballJones

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Two good pass-catching TEs. Bourne is a playmaker. Parker is solid - not spectacular but solid and able to make some tough catches. Juju is a very good slot guy who has some versatility. Thornton is the X factor here. Elite speed, but we aren't yet sure if he can be a really good NFL WR.

Add in Rhamondre, who is a top tier RB, and then Robinson, Strong, and K Harris, and the RB spot is in pretty good shape. Throw in Marcus Jones as a swiss army knife, 5-10 play a game guy who can do all kinds of things for you and as a runner with the ball, he's absolutely elite. That's a pretty good group of skill position players. Not the best in the league, but you absolutely can go to war with that. A lot rides on Thornton though, and it would make a HUGE difference if they added a guy like Jeudy.

But then....it's all down to the OL and... Mac.
 

rodderick

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I think this simultaneously would have been one of the deepest skill groups of the Brady era and still not enough to contend this year. The top tier talent is lacking and those players just make it so much easier for everyone else.
 

BaseballJones

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I think this simultaneously would have been one of the deepest skill groups of the Brady era and still not enough to contend this year. The top tier talent is lacking and those players just make it so much easier for everyone else.
Put it this way: If Brady had his good Pats' OL and this skill group, that's absolutely a Super Bowl level offense, no questions asked.
 

Cellar-Door

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Yeah, I think this is an averagish skill group, it won't light the world on fire, but you should be able to put together a good offense with those guys. Line is a concern still, mostly who the non-Brown starter is at tackle.
 

Eck'sSneakyCheese

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At first I was meh about this but I’ll be damned if it isn’t another upgrade. Gesicki is better than Smith. Reiff is better than Wynn. Robinson is an upgrade at RB 4. Juju is an upgrade over Jakobi. Smart moves so far.
 

BaseballJones

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Definitely a bunch of minor to midsized upgrades so far. No big splashes, nothing fancy. But legitimate upgrades.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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At first I was meh about this but I’ll be damned if it isn’t another upgrade. Gesicki is better than Smith. Reiff is better than Wynn. Robinson is an upgrade at RB 4. Juju is an upgrade over Jakobi. Smart moves so far.
Marginal upgrades on paper are still upgrades. Add in BOB's addition and even modest improvement could have bigger feeling impacts.

I'm really eager to see how their offense looks this season, especially if they add more pieces.
 

BigJimEd

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Robinson is an unknown and if you want to compare to last year, RB group is a downgrade with Robinson but without Harris.

Reiff is hopefully an upgrade but many would rank Wynn higher.


Overall though good, solid moves.
 
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Shelterdog

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Marginal upgrades on paper are still upgrades. Add in BOB's addition and even modest improvement could have bigger feeling impacts.

I'm really eager to see how their offense looks this season, especially if they add more pieces.
Something that drives me nuts is every reporter saying like one day into free agency "what are they doing that's going to get them to the super bowl." Another said that the Pats believed they could have won 2 more games if not for some of the boneheaded mistakes and said what does 10-7 get you other than a playoff game? I'd love for the Pats to pull off a move that vaults them into immediate superbowl contention but the reality is that you just have to make tons and tons of good decisions to get there and hpefully they're making some good decisions here.
 

Ferm Sheller

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Random thought here, but all of the recents posts in this thread have me thinking about how little offensive talent the 2001 team had. (And yes, they had Brady, but he was still very raw.)
 

Cellar-Door

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Robinson is an unknown and if you want to compare to last year, RB group is a downgrade with Robinson but without Harris.

Reiff is hopefully an upgrade but many would rank Wynn higher.


Overall though good, solid moves.
Yeah I think RB is not an upgrade, for Reiff, I think he's better than Wynn (or at least he's better than what Wynn was last year) but on top of that we also added Anderson, so I'd say we clearly upgraded OT as a position.
Something that drives me nuts is every reporter saying like one day into free agency "what are they doing that's going to get them to the super bowl." Another said that the Pats believed they could have won 2 more games if not for some of the boneheaded mistakes and said what does 10-7 get you other than a playoff game? I'd love for the Pats to pull off a move that vaults them into immediate superbowl contention but the reality is that you just have to make tons and tons of good decisions to get there and hpefully they're making some good decisions here.
Yeah here's the thing, there is only one thing the Patriots could do this offseason that makes them on-paper SB contenders for next year..... acquire a top 5-7 QB. That's it, because that's how you get to the Superbowl with any consistency.
 

Shelterdog

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Yeah I think RB is not an upgrade, for Reiff, I think he's better than Wynn (or at least he's better than what Wynn was last year) but on top of that we also added Anderson, so I'd say we clearly upgraded OT as a position.

Yeah here's the thing, there is only one thing the Patriots could do this offseason that makes them on-paper SB contenders for next year..... acquire a top 5-7 QB. That's it, because that's how you get to the Superbowl with any consistency.
Agreed. There's no move other than possibly a Lamar signing that let's an intelligent observer say yes, the Pats are back at the top of the heap again. But if you can't get a top QB it's notl ike you should just quit.