General Playoff Thread: The Long 2nd Season

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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So is GS going to woo Durant? They may need to get more physical and athletic.


They are a good team; they aren't even close to being an historically great team. They are built for the regular season, not the playoffs. And two series that went game 7 show that. If they were historically great they would have dropped 3 games for the entire playoffs.

Dude, just sack up and say you were wrong about GS. Stop doubling down.
Sack up? How old are you? I am doubling down on nothing. What is finesse exactly? Quantify it please. Describe it? Its a fucking hollow, hot-take term that people who call in to sports radio use just like sack-up. Seriously, if you can make a cogent argument that supports your finesse claim, I will entertain it. But just throwing out hollow terms is useless. Its adding nothing to the discussion here.
 

Kliq

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The Warriors did not score for almost the final 5 minutes in that game and Curry was a trainwreck in the final few minutes, highlighted by a behind-the-back pass that ended up in the first row and an ugly three early in the shot clock that hit off the backboard so hard it almost decapitated Kevin Love on the way down. The Warriors blew a 3-1 lead, home court advantage and their most consistent player got suspended for a critical Game 5 because he tried to punch someone in the balls.

One more observation. The people saying that the Warriors choked cannot simultaneously claim that what LeBron did was so amazing - because the Warriors handed it to him rather than him taking it.

Either the Warriors were the better team and pissed the series away or LeBron led the Cavs to victory by playing spectacularly along with great contributions from Irving and Thompson. I tend to believe that the Cavs were the better team and LeBron has now made his claim for GOAT (I have always thought this). The guy is brilliant at basketball.
I know you are mad that your team lost, and as someone that watched SB 43 I know how it feels, but fundamentally this argument doesn't make sense. For a choke to be complete, the team that does the choking has to lose by the very definition of the term. For a team to win, even if the other team is choking, they still have to play well, and the Cavs did play well. GS, as evidenced by their tremendous season, is better than any other team in the league and not even Cleveland could defeat them if they were playing up to their potential; they did not and CLE played well enough to defeat them in a tight series.

Take the Miracle on Ice. We all love it as a great upset, but in reality the USSR choked. The Soviets had destroyed their previous competition, including the US squad and when playing up to their potential, were the clear best team in the world. But when it came for the game against the US, they blew it. Their coach panicked and benched Vladislav Tretiak (the best goalie in the world) after a fluke goal and the Russian played scared for the rest of the game. That didn't mean that Craig, Eruzione and the rest of the US team didn't play the best games of their lives, but the Russians still choked.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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The Warriors did not score for almost the final 5 minutes in that game and Curry was a trainwreck in the final few minutes, highlighted by a behind-the-back pass that ended up in the first row and an ugly three early in the shot clock that hit off the backboard so hard it almost decapitated Kevin Love on the way down. The Warriors blew a 3-1 lead, home court advantage and their most consistent player got suspended for a critical Game 5 because he tried to punch someone in the balls.



I know you are mad that your team lost, and as someone that watched SB 43 I know how it feels, but fundamentally this argument doesn't make sense. For a choke to be complete, the team that does the choking has to lose by the very definition of the term. For a team to win, even if the other team is choking, they still have to play well, and the Cavs did play well. GS, as evidenced by their tremendous season, is better than any other team in the league and not even Cleveland could defeat them if they were playing up to their potential; they did not and CLE played well enough to defeat them in a tight series.

Take the Miracle on Ice. We all love it as a great upset, but in reality the USSR choked. The Soviets had destroyed their previous competition, including the US squad and when playing up to their potential, were the clear best team in the world. But when it came for the game against the US, they blew it. Their coach panicked and benched Vladislav Tretiak (the best goalie in the world) after a fluke goal and the Russian played scared for the rest of the game. That didn't mean that Craig, Eruzione and the rest of the US team didn't play the best games of their lives, but the Russians still choked.
I don't believe in the idea of a choke. And I am not mad at all. I don't believe OKC choked last round either. Just like the "finesse" poster, choking is a hollow term used by people who are too lazy to dig into the details. You, of all people given your pretty extensive knowledge of sports history (especially for being relatively young) should be better than this.

Was LeBron not the best player in this series? Was Kyrie not the second best player? Let's start there rather than labeling heroes and goats. That's shit people did before we looked at stats and had access to replays of the game at our fingertips where could actually start to describe what we saw. Maybe you won't agree with me but after a long time of watching sports - played by young men who faced tall odds simply to make it to the stage they are on - its far more complicated than choking. LeBron and the Cavs won this series fair and square, regardless of how they did it. To say otherwise diminishes their accomplishment and is intellectually lazy.
 

jablo1312

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And one note that will certainly trigger some Celtics fans here: Step and Klay combined to go....6-24 from 3 in Game 7 of the NBA Finals.
 

ElUno20

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The Kevin Love Austin 316 shirt may be the most random yet awesome thing I've ever seen during a championship celebration.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I'm tempted to start a general sports thread entitled "Did They Choke?"
Nick Anderson at the FT line choked. Jean Van De Velde at the British Open choked on the 18th. When the Blazers went the final 7 minutes of the game without a single point versus the Lakers in 2000 blowing a 16-point 4th quarter Game 7 lead......they choked.

"Choking" is a moment when a player or team is firmly in control of their emotions and performance only to suddenly feel anxiety and tension due to being in an unfamiliar situation causing a sudden collapse in performance.

Aside from normal errors that occur throughout the course of a game who on the Warriors "choked" based on the general meaning of the term?
 

Nick Kaufman

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"Choking" is a moment when a player or team is firmly in control of their emotions and performance only to suddenly feel anxiety and tension due to being in an unfamiliar situation causing a sudden collapse in performance.
From a scientific article I found some time ago:
Choking in sport is considered to be a sub-optimal performance under stressful conditions (Lewis & Linder, 1997) and has been defined as “the occurrence of inferior performance despite striving and incentives for superior performance”
The participants suggested that the choking process consists of a stress response, whereby the athlete appraises the demands of a pressurized situation as beyond their capability to cope. One of the psychologists noted:

Choking [in sport] is where it all goes completely wrong, because you perceive that you cannot cope at all with what's going on … they suddenly get this realization that … “I may not be able to handle this” - so [the] inability to cope … is the process of choking … and will cause the choke.

It was agreed by all participants that the choking process only occurs when the athlete is striving for success within a situation that they deem to be important. For example:

The event must be important to the person. I think if it is not of high importance to them, they don't really care about it; therefore, they are never going to get themselves into the state where they are concerned that they can't cope.
Choking as a phenomenon absolutely exists, it's just so difficult to pin it as a cause from afar as opposed to other more mundane reasons. I don't think that the Warriors or Curry choked for 3 straight games.

I also do wonder whether Curry got unusually hot during the regular season and he just experienced regression to the mean -which is another very real and very happening phenomenon- during the most inopportune time.
 
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Nick Kaufman

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Other than that, good for Cleveland and respect for Lebron; his performance in game seven was great and gutsy.
 

Wake's knuckle

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Did LeBron get into Curry's head a little bit? How many times did he absolutely smother a Curry lay-up attempt in this series? The danger with Curry is that he both so good close to the basket AND from three -- if you get too close, he's going to go by you and nail the deuce. The combination of being a little gimpy and the fear of getting devoured by LeBron in the lane might have made him reluctant to drive, which in turn makes him a lot easier to defend on the perimeter...
 

BaseballJones

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IMO, here are the main reasons Golden State lost and Cleveland won this series.

1. LeBron. Didn't win the regular season MVP again, but once again proved he is the best player on earth. Utterly dominant in every way. Came up HUGE this series. Series averages: 29.7 points, 11.3 rebounds, 8.9 assists, 2.6 steals, 2.3 blocks. Insane.

2. Draymond Green's suspension. They were up 3-1, with two of the last three at home. And frankly, while I didn't think it was a horrendous offense, he did get away with one against Adams, and basically, Green is a punk. He ultimately got what he deserved, and he has nobody to blame but himself. And it put GS in a dangerous position, especially, as we would later find out....

3. Bogut's injury. The other GS bigs could do NOTHING in this series, and losing Bogut turned out to be crucial. I thought GS's small lineup would still work, but in game 5 they were missing Green, and then game 6 was in Cleveland, and in a game 7, anything can happen.

4. Irving's brilliance. I'm not a huge Kyrie Irving fan, because his game is too one-on-one for my personal tastes, but I have to admit he's spectacular. He made some incredible shots the last three games of this series. Just very, very difficult shots that normally you'd say (if you're Golden State), yeah, go ahead and throw THAT up, no problem. But he made them. That last three was a ridiculous shot.

5. Curry's ineffectiveness. In part due to Cleveland's defense. In part due to him being banged up. But however you slice it, this was a not the same Steph Curry as we saw during the season. Maybe the refs let them play more physical in the playoffs and that's something they're going to have to adapt to next year, but he just didn't play as well as he normally does. I don't have a problem with the deep 3's or behind the back passes that go out of bounds because that's how they play, and obviously it usually works great for them. But clearly Steph was not Steph. The funny thing is that Curry is so good that these NBA finals numbers look pedestrian for him: 22.6 points, 4.9 rebounds, 3.7 assists, 40.0% from three. I mean, Irving shot 40.5% from three, and 40.0% is pretty good. But it's not good for Curry. Klay also shot worse this series than during the season, so the Splash Brothers, who needed just one or two more threes in Game 7...just couldn't do it.

I don't buy that GS was out-coached. I don't buy that they were tired from their 73 win effort during the season. They didn't look tired going up 3-1. I don't buy that they're "soft". I think they simply ran into a team with an all-time great player, playing at his highest level ever, who finally got a sidekick to put up sick performances as well, while at the same time suffering some debilitating setbacks (Curry and Iguodala being banged up, Bogut getting injured, and Green's suspension). That combination was just too much, and that's ok. The Lakers and Celtics beat each other in the NBA finals in successive years. The Lakers and Pistons beat each other in successive years. The Pistons and Bulls beat each other in successive years. Great teams don't always win it all, because sometimes you run into great competition and not everything goes right. I think this was one of those situations.

Congrats to LeBron, who showed a lot of doubters what he's made of. And to the city of Cleveland, assuming it's still standing this morning. And yes, bummer for Golden State, because we Patriots fans know what it's like to put up the greatest regular season of all time and fall short by *thismuch* in the championship. It sucks.
 
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HomeRunBaker

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I also do wonder whether Curry got unusually hot during the regular season and he just experienced regression to the mean -which is another very real and very happening phenomenon- during the most inopportune time.
It is much more difficult to execute offensively and shoot the ball against playoff-level defense as opposed to a February in Dallas. Between that, his knee, and shoulder injury there were no signs of choking from Curry due to him being mentally incapable of handling the moment.

The "being worn down from 73-wins" thing is borderline ludicrous......no nevermind, there is nothing borderline about it. I never knew a team got worn down more from winning and worn down less from losing. By winning so much the starters were actually given MORE rest by sitting out so many 4th quarters during the regular season.
 

Kliq

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I would say that GS was more likely worn down by actually having to exert themselves during the playoffs unlike Cleveland, who save for some games in Toronto strolled in. GS went through a WAR with OKC and that probably wore them down a bit.
 

OCST

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TRADE FOR THIS MAN!
I love kicking Love around as much as the next guy, but he played well in G7.

His suck in this series has a very large Venn overlap with the time following his concussion. My unscientific opinion, based on having once been concussed (it sucks, for many days afterward( and the suspicion that the NBA is less than enlightened with its protocol, is that it strongly affected him.
 

mauf

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It is much more difficult to execute offensively and shoot the ball against playoff-level defense as opposed to a February in Dallas. Between that, his knee, and shoulder injury there were no signs of choking from Curry due to him being mentally incapable of handling the moment.

The "being worn down from 73-wins" thing is borderline ludicrous......no nevermind, there is nothing borderline about it. I never knew a team got worn down more from winning and worn down less from losing. By winning so much the starters were actually given MORE rest by sitting out so many 4th quarters during the regular season.
Your jump shot is the first thing that goes when you've got tired legs; you can will yourself to play tough D or drive to the hole, but you can't will yourself to have a stable foundation for your shot. Don't you wonder if the Dubs might have knocked down a couple more shots last night if their key players had played somewhat fewer regular-season minutes (which would have meant forgoing the record)? That's all it would have taken to change the outcome; I'm not saying that's definitely what happened, but it seems wrong to dismiss it out of hand, especially when the Dubs' surprising inability to hit a jump shot was perhaps the most salient factor in the closing minutes of last night's game.
 
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HomeRunBaker

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Your jump shot is the first thing that goes when you've got tired legs; you can will yourself to play tough D or drive to the hole, but you can't will yourself to have a stable foundation for your shot. Don't you wonder if the Dubs might have knocked down a couple more shots last night if their key players had played somewhat fewer regular-season minutes (which would have meant forgoing the record)? That's all it would have taken to change the outcome; I'm not saying that's definitely what happened, but it seems wrong to dismiss it out of hand, especially when the Dubs' surprising inability to hit a jump shot was perhaps the most salient factor in the closing minutes of last night's game.
My opinion is without question No. As I said the Warriors starters didn't play heavy minutes this year, on average almost identical per game as Cleveland. Sitting out 2-3 games over the course of 7 months isn't going to play a factor in fatigue especially with the playoffs stretched out so long.

The shooting against playoff defenses while the game is played at an overall higher intensity isn't surprising to me at all. It's expected. By and large the Warriors knocked down open looks and struggled badly against forced and contested shots.
 

jablo1312

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Nice post BBJ. Agreed on all points.

One other person that deserves props- Tyronn Lue. He specifically said that he wanted the Cavs to run as as much as they could in this series, and most people scoffed at the notion of him wanting to get in a track meet with Golden State as a terrible idea. In games 5-7, save for the last 5 minutes of game 7, the Cavs ran in transition at every opportunity and took full advantage of their ability to get higher quality looks in transition. I don't think many people thought they could win running the floor against this team.
 

Strike4

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Nice post BBJ. Agreed on all points.

One other person that deserves props- Tyronn Lue. He specifically said that he wanted the Cavs to run as as much as they could in this series, and most people scoffed at the notion of him wanting to get in a track meet with Golden State as a terrible idea. In games 5-7, save for the last 5 minutes of game 7, the Cavs ran in transition at every opportunity and took full advantage of their ability to get higher quality looks in transition. I don't think many people thought they could win running the floor against this team.
This is a great point, and I think not enough attention is paid to the coaching in general as the root of the "they choked!" or "it was because Lebron was amazing!" argument. It just seemed like Kerr didn't allow his team to get too far out of their comfort zone because that would risk getting away from what got them 73 wins in the first place. On the other hand, Lue went into the series with the mentality that the Cavs would have to abandon their comfort zone if they wanted to win. The players stepped up - Love and others, not just the stars - but I feel like Lue's management made it possible. Kerr, on the other hand, made a lot of defensible moves that taken together created a mess for the Warriors. Ezeli being in for a stretch after halftime killed the Warriors chances to win it there...the offense being run through Varajeo for a few minutes just after that...not going small early enough in order to see if they could torch the Cavs and get a bit of a cushion. Both teams looked tired at the end, but Cleveland was clearly playing with more poise during the long stretch when the game was tied. The Warriors are better than the team that had their season end on two long three attempts by Curry.
 

RedOctober3829

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I don't think this is the last time we'll see these two teams in the Finals, either. Golden State will have to solve it's post issues and try to find easier ways to score besides relying heavily on jump shots. As we saw, when played physically over a 7 game series their legs started to go and the jump shot is the first thing to go when that occurs. But other than that these two teams are set up over the long haul to be the two best teams in the NBA provided that LeBron stays around.
 

ElUno20

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My opinion is without question No. As I said the Warriors starters didn't play heavy minutes this year, on average almost identical per game as Cleveland. Sitting out 2-3 games over the course of 7 months isn't going to play a factor in fatigue especially with the playoffs stretched out so long.

The shooting against playoff defenses while the game is played at an overall higher intensity isn't surprising to me at all. It's expected. By and large the Warriors knocked down open looks and struggled badly against forced and contested shots.
I've been thinking about this the last few weeks and while I agree with this sentiment, I think there's something to the argument.

The last two years no one has kicked more ass than the warriors in the regular season and while a part of that is them running a smart system and organization, they do take the regular season deathly serious. So yeah the starters minutes are down but the minutes they do play are at very high levels. They came out this year to prove point almost with all the ass kicking. Now contrast that with Lebron who seemed to ease his way into the playoffs and turn it on the last month or so of the regular season to have enough in the tank for the run.

I don't agree with the people blaming this on them going for 73 but I do think it had some impact.
 

Strike4

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I've been thinking about this the last few weeks and while I agree with this sentiment, I think there's something to the argument.

The last two years no one has kicked more ass than the warriors in the regular season and while a part of that is them running a smart system and organization, they do take the regular season deathly serious. So yeah the starters minutes are down but the minutes they do play are at very high levels. They came out this year to prove point almost with all the ass kicking. Now contrast that with Lebron who seemed to ease his way into the playoffs and turn it on the last month or so of the regular season to have enough in the tank for the run.

I don't agree with the people blaming this on them going for 73 but I do think it had some impact.
Lebron is just on another level physically and this not only factors into the fatigue thing, but also his ability to dominate in so many facets of the game. Offensively, he can take over by going to the basket and drawing fouls, he can go to the basket and dish for corner 3's, he can post up, and so on. The punishment his body takes must be extraordinary. A player like Curry, on the other hand, is just not able to do those things, and the things he does well (long-range shooting, ball-handling, passing) can only be done well when he's not fatigued or banged up. That's why we saw horrid shots and that way-off behind the back pass.
 

OCST

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I've been thinking about this the last few weeks and while I agree with this sentiment, I think there's something to the argument.

The last two years no one has kicked more ass than the warriors in the regular season and while a part of that is them running a smart system and organization, they do take the regular season deathly serious. So yeah the starters minutes are down but the minutes they do play are at very high levels. They came out this year to prove point almost with all the ass kicking. Now contrast that with Lebron who seemed to ease his way into the playoffs and turn it on the last month or so of the regular season to have enough in the tank for the run.

I don't agree with the people blaming this on them going for 73 but I do think it had some impact.

OT, but the regular season should be shorter IMO. The marquee players who are the face of the league get tons of mileage on their bodies, playing deep into the playoffs every year on top of the regular season (and then Olympic/international play on top of that for some). No doubt that shortens careers. Fewer Tuesday night games in February in Milwaukee or New Orleans (let's say a cut of ~10% of the regular season). would enhance the product. Of course that will never happen because everyone would need to take a pay cut.
 

Bigpupp

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Can someone point me to all the posts that said the Cavs were a better team before they actually won the series? I won't speak to whether the Warriors choked or not, but to just say "the better team won" after the series is over and expect that to be the end of the discussion seems a little odd to me - especially when I don't think there wasn't a poster on this board who thought they were a better team a week ago.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Can someone point me to all the posts that said the Cavs were a better team before they actually won the series? I won't speak to whether the Warriors choked or not, but to just say "the better team won" after the series is over and expect that to be the end of the discussion seems a little odd to me - especially when I don't think there wasn't a poster on this board who thought they were a better team a week ago.
I agree with this. The large majority felt the Warriors were the better team......however I'd say that this was due to them not expecting LeBron to take his game to the level he did over these final 3 games nor expect Kyrie to make Steph his personal bitch. So while I didn't feel the Cavs were the better team PRIOR to the series they certainly embraced The Finals challenge and in the end WERE the best team on the floor.......it's fair to debate how much Golden State's injuries had to do with it. I don't have any Golden State bias after what I witnessed in the playoffs last season (prior to that I admit I was a non-believer) and saw a LeBron/Kyrie-led team WIN that series on merit and not by the Warriors being mentally incapable of handling the moment.
 

kelpapa

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My opinion is without question No. As I said the Warriors starters didn't play heavy minutes this year, on average almost identical per game as Cleveland. Sitting out 2-3 games over the course of 7 months isn't going to play a factor in fatigue especially with the playoffs stretched out so long.

The shooting against playoff defenses while the game is played at an overall higher intensity isn't surprising to me at all. It's expected. By and large the Warriors knocked down open looks and struggled badly against forced and contested shots.
Just to add to this: LeBron played the fewest MPG (35.6) of his career this year. Steph (34.2), Draymond (34.7) and Klay (33.3) all played fewer MPG than LeBron. Draymond is the only one of the three to play more total minutes than LeBron this year.

In the playoffs, LeBron (39.1 MPG, 822 total minutes) averaged more minutes per game than all three of them - (Steph, 34.1, 614) (Draymond, 38.2, 879) (Klay, 35.4, 849) - and the total minutes are fairly comparable with the exception of Steph.
 

jablo1312

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Anyone know the Lineup of Deaths final +/- for the series? Seemed like they must have been at least +15 or so last night.
 

RedOctober3829

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Can someone point me to all the posts that said the Cavs were a better team before they actually won the series? I won't speak to whether the Warriors choked or not, but to just say "the better team won" after the series is over and expect that to be the end of the discussion seems a little odd to me - especially when I don't think there wasn't a poster on this board who thought they were a better team a week ago.
Everybody thought that GS was the better team because that was the evidence before the series. Even after Games 1 and 2, nobody thought that Cleveland would win the series. Posters like myself didn't think they'd even make it a series. You could also say that after Game 4 that the Warriors should have been considered the better team. But a lot of circumstances added up. You have the otherworldly performances by LeBron and Kyrie, really good contributions from Tristan Thompson, JR Smith, and Richard Jefferson, Draymond getting suspended for Game 5, Golden State as a whole going into a shooting slump, questionable coaching decisions by Kerr to play Varajeo and Ezeli for long stretches in 4th quarter of G7.

It's not so cut and dry that Golden State choked and that's why Cleveland won. Cleveland made them wear down as the series went on with physical defense and LeBron/Kyrie giving all-time performances are a much bigger reason than Golden State "choking".
 

johnmd20

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After the 2nd game, this series really did look over. After Game 4, it was worse. Then Green got suspended, giving Cleveland a humongous lift heading to Oracle. Then Bogut got hurt, further giving Cleveland a lift and putting a ton of pressure on the other guys to pick up the slack. They couldn't. It was a perfect storm of dominoes toppling, which gave them a chance. In Game 7, all bets are off.

I think Cleveland totally outplayed GS in the first half last night, but the 3's from Green and all the 3 misses by Cleveland made that game much closer than it should have been.
 

Tangled Up In Red

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Can someone point me to all the posts that said the Cavs were a better team before they actually won the series? I won't speak to whether the Warriors choked or not, but to just say "the better team won" after the series is over and expect that to be the end of the discussion seems a little odd to me - especially when I don't think there wasn't a poster on this board who thought they were a better team a week ago.
I think "the better team won" (and I'm one who said it) - is simply saying the more deserving team over this seven game series emerged victorious. That is how playoffs work.
Not some grand, over-arching evaluation of the short or long term qualities of the rosters, coaching staffs and front offices.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Can someone point me to all the posts that said the Cavs were a better team before they actually won the series? I won't speak to whether the Warriors choked or not, but to just say "the better team won" after the series is over and expect that to be the end of the discussion seems a little odd to me - especially when I don't think there wasn't a poster on this board who thought they were a better team a week ago.
I never went so far as to say that Cleveland was the better team, and I still don't know if they are (if this series was played 100 times, I think Golden State wins more than half of them), but I was certainly here before and all throughout the series banging the drum for Cleveland and questioning why folks literally were acting like they had no shot. Shoot, after they took apart Golden State at home in Game 5, folks were basically in here saying that it was no big deal, and when Draymond comes back in game 6, Golden State will just finish them off then, regardless of it being on Cleveland's home court. I tried to make the point that while Green certainly meant a lot to Golden State, I didn't think he alone was enough to make up the 15 point deficit that the Cavs poured on them in Game 6, and that was met with "But Green changes up their defense completely, etc."

Anyway, 24 hours later, I'm still thrilled Cleveland won this series.
 

Cesar Crespo

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So is GS going to woo Durant? They may need to get more physical and athletic.


They are a good team; they aren't even close to being an historically great team. They are built for the regular season, not the playoffs. And two series that went game 7 show that. If they were historically great they would have dropped 3 games for the entire playoffs.

Dude, just sack up and say you were wrong about GS. Stop doubling down.
They were a few minutes away from winning back to back titles and aren't built for the playoffs? What?
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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The guy is arguing that the Warriors are a "finesse" team.

He won't define what that means but I suspect its along the lines of the empty Barkley argument that "jump shooting teams don't win championships". It conveniently ignores the fact that the Warriors won the Western Conference Final coming back from down 3-1 and lost in the finals in game seven by four points after winning it all the year prior. We can play "what if" to make up that four point deficit (what if Curry hit two more threes or Iguodala made his FTs and Curry didn't make that horrible pass) and you, indeed, get back to back championships but that didn't happen.

I guess those things are finesse but I simply consider it a hollow word used by casual fans who don't care to discuss the sport beyond some hot take terms. That said, I welcome his definition of why the Warriors are a finesse team that aren't built for the playoffs in which they went to the last possible game and remain open to the idea that he may be on to something.

Finally, the finesse argument also diminishes the fact that the Warriors lost to LeBron James, who many here are now agreeing is a legitimate contender to be the greatest basketball player of all time. As TUIR notes, the Warriors had some headwinds with injuries and Draymond's suspension too. I am not sure any of that has the slightest to do with finesse. I would say that Draymond didn't use much finesse these playoffs at all.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Even if they are a finesse team, to have the position that the Warriors are a regular season team is absurd given the last 2 seasons. To say they aren't historically great is one thing, and a thing I agree with, but a regular season team? What else do they have to do to prove they are build for the playoffs? Win 2 out of 3? Were 4 of Lebron's teams not build for the playoffs? What teams would qualify? Clearly, OKC and the Spurs weren't build for the playoffs this year either. It's such a nonsensical argument.
 

Tangled Up In Red

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Even if they are a finesse team, to have the position that the Warriors are a regular season team is absurd given the last 2 seasons. To say they aren't historically great is one thing, and a thing I agree with, but a regular season team? What else do they have to do to prove they are build for the playoffs? Win 2 out of 3? Were 4 of Lebron's teams not build for the playoffs? What teams would qualify? Clearly, OKC and the Spurs weren't build for the playoffs this year either. It's such a nonsensical argument.
Play in the Eastern Conference?
 

jmm57

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They were a few minutes away from winning back to back titles and aren't built for the playoffs? What?
The flip side of this being they have won exactly one playoff series vs a very good/great team. OKC in 7.

The road is the road, but things broke awfully nice for them. From Tony Allen getting hurt down 2-1 to MEM, Durant injury ruining OKC, to Irving/Love in the finals (a team that would go on to beat GS when healthy), to Blake/CP3 this year putting Portland to the 2nd round.
 
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johnmd20

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The flip side of this being they have won exactly one playoff series vs a very good/great team. OKC in 7.

The road is the road, but things broke awfully nice for them. From Tony Allen getting hurt down 2-1 to MEM, Durant injury ruining OKC, to Irving/Love in the finals (a team that would go on to beat GS when healthy), to Blake/CP3 this year putting Portland to the 2nd round.
Come on. They were one win away from winning back to back titles. The road for Cleveland also broke pretty good this year. They are built for the playoffs because they have won once and were a couple of shots away from winning another. The proof, as they say, is in the pudding.
 

jmm57

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The road for Cleveland was very easy, no doubt. They have only beaten one very good/great team in the last two playoffs as well. I just don't see anyone arguing that this Cleveland team is historically great, so the bar is different.

If Golden State comes out and wins another couple championships than they are in the discussion. Right now their resume looks much more big-3 Celtics than Jordan's Bulls.
 
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johnmd20

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The road for Cleveland was very easy, no doubt. They have only beaten one very good/great team in the last two playoffs as well. I just don't see anyone arguing that this Cleveland team is historically great, so the bar is different.

If Golden State comes out and wins another couple championships than they are in the discussion. Right now their resume looks much more big-3 Celtics than Jordan's Bulls.
So much blindness. Golden State, this year, broke the record for wins in the regular season. They were historically great. In fact, over 82 games, they were the best team who ever played the game when counting wins and losses. That is no small feat.

I'm no GS fan and Cleveland needed to play to absolute perfection to beat them and they did. But a lot of things really broke Cleveland's way, including Steph not being 100%, Bogut getting hurt, Green getting suspended, and Harrison Barnes basically missing every shot he took in the last three games of the season.

If any of those things don't happen, GS probably wins. And then they are what, battle tested in the playoffs? They came back and beat OKC after being down 3-1. That is pretty battle tested right there. But because they lost the finals in 7 games, they aren't? That's pretty ridiculous.