General NBA season thread: 24-25 edition

Euclis20

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This was briefly mentioned in the gamethread, but since it's bigger than one game it felt worth bringing over here:

View: https://twitter.com/SneakerReporter/status/1861988649941831722


Basically all the worst fears about swapping Kat for Randle (and Divincenzo, who has been useless) have instantly come true and this team that just had their biggest moment in 20 years looks broken. Very curious to see how things progress from here, particularly how Ant handles things.
 

jon abbey

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Basically all the worst fears about swapping Kat for Randle (and Divincenzo, who has been useless) have instantly come true and this team that just had their biggest moment in 20 years looks broken. Very curious to see how things progress from here, particularly how Ant handles things.
Also Naz Reid doesn't seem to be as close to a KAT replacement as MIN hoped/expected.
 

DavidTai

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This was briefly mentioned in the gamethread, but since it's bigger than one game it felt worth bringing over here:

View: https://twitter.com/SneakerReporter/status/1861988649941831722


Basically all the worst fears about swapping Kat for Randle (and Divincenzo, who has been useless) have instantly come true and this team that just had their biggest moment in 20 years looks broken. Very curious to see how things progress from here, particularly how Ant handles things.
Ant does not feel like a very rational guy... impulsive, emotional, and a front-runner. I expect all the "charisma" the media fanned over will turn ugly when he turns it onto his own team.
 

Montana Fan

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Ant does not feel like a very rational guy... impulsive, emotional, and a front-runner. I expect all the "charisma" the media fanned over will turn ugly when he turns it onto his own team.
Yeah, he’s a child right down to this immature interview. He’s more comfortable shitting on his team rather than leading his team. So, so glad we have JB or JT instead of this guy.
 

Euclis20

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Ant does not feel like a very rational guy... impulsive, emotional, and a front-runner. I expect all the "charisma" the media fanned over will turn ugly when he turns it onto his own team.
I don't have any problem with what he said above ("this team is soft" is just calling it what it is), but this is less than great:

View: https://twitter.com/LegionHoops/status/1862160849747808458


It's worth remembering that Ant is still really young (he's basically as old as someone that just graduated from college in the spring) and not only has never experienced a real loss, he's been adored at every step of the way. They can't all be Tatum (who has always been incredibly mature and suffered some huge disappointments with grace and humility), most guys take time to grow up. The general public hasn't really been paying attention to the Wolves fall this year (in part because it's still early and in part because Philly exists and is sucking up all the train crash oxygen in the room), but I really don't know how things look if they're still around .500 by the ASB. Ant complaining about the fans is a terrible look.
 

Smokey Joe

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This was briefly mentioned in the gamethread, but since it's bigger than one game it felt worth bringing over here:

View: https://twitter.com/SneakerReporter/status/1861988649941831722


Basically all the worst fears about swapping Kat for Randle (and Divincenzo, who has been useless) have instantly come true and this team that just had their biggest moment in 20 years looks broken. Very curious to see how things progress from here, particularly how Ant handles things.
I’m trying to figure out how you can trade KAT for just about anyone in the league and then end up “softer”.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I’m trying to figure out how you can trade KAT for just about anyone in the league and then end up “softer”.
Well it could be that MIN is "soft as hell" or it could be that MIN is really missing the version of Mike Conley they got last year. MIN is 0-4 without Conley and this article - https://www.brainerddispatch.com/sports/pro/value-of-point-guard-becoming-abundantly-clear-for-timberwolves-with-conley-returning - has some shooting %s with and without Conley:

McDaniels: With Conley: 35.2%; without Conley: 24.3%
DD: With Conley: 43.8%; without Conley: 27.9%
Reid: With Conley: 53.8%; without Conley: 34.3%
 

HomeRunBaker

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I live in the twin cities. This will blow over before it ever becomes a thing. There have been countless athletes complaining about booing fans and nothing ever comes from it.
Agreed. This sounds like a lot about nothing. All teams go through rough patches over 82 games. The Bucks had theirs in the first 5 games of the season, people wrote them off after more losses when they actually turned the corner and were playing great. The Wolves are having theirs right now and will be a playoff team that nobody is going to want to face in the spring barring injury. Call it what you want....recency bias, variance, small samples size....they all apply with Minnesota.
 

Foxy42

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Watching ‘Starting 5’ on Netflix drives home the point of just how young and immature Ant is. Not a bad kid and I hope he does well, but it’s like he’s a jr high kid compared to Tatum, Sabina, etc
 

jon abbey

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Well it could be that MIN is "soft as hell" or it could be that MIN is really missing the version of Mike Conley they got last year. MIN is 0-4 without Conley and this article - https://www.brainerddispatch.com/sports/pro/value-of-point-guard-becoming-abundantly-clear-for-timberwolves-with-conley-returning - has some shooting %s with and without Conley:

McDaniels: With Conley: 35.2%; without Conley: 24.3%
DD: With Conley: 43.8%; without Conley: 27.9%
Reid: With Conley: 53.8%; without Conley: 34.3%
I knew they missed Conley but didn’t realize those splits, good stuff.
 

jon abbey

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Also I think Ant was yelling at himself first and foremost (which he did say at the start), he shot 4 for his final 19 as they blew the lead.
 

Euclis20

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I live in the twin cities. This will blow over before it ever becomes a thing. There have been countless athletes complaining about booing fans and nothing ever comes from it.
I don't meant that this one comment specifically will come back to bite him, I mean that if this is his attitude when unexpected adversity strikes, it is a sign of bad things to come. As mentioned above maturity seems to be an issue with him, time to grow up.
 

benhogan

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Agreed. This sounds like a lot about nothing. All teams go through rough patches over 82 games. The Bucks had theirs in the first 5 games of the season, people wrote them off after more losses when they actually turned the corner and were playing great. The Wolves are having theirs right now and will be a playoff team that nobody is going to want to face in the spring barring injury. Call it what you want....recency bias, variance, small samples size....they all apply with Minnesota.
The schedule has an effect here.

Since starting the season 2-8, the BUCKS have played 7 of their last 8 against sub .500 teams (going 7-1)
They play 12 of their next 14 against sub .500 teams.

My December/January bingo card has: Giannis MVP runner-up, Middleton is now healthy, Dame is in better shape this season, Doc is working magic & BUCKS are playing great. The Doris Machine is back in business!

Meanwhile, our friends in the WC, the WOLVES, play 12 of their next 13 games against teams with a winning record.
Magic 8-ball says Outlook not as good
 

HomeRunBaker

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The schedule has an effect here.

Since starting the season 2-8, the BUCKS have played 7 of their last 8 against sub .500 teams (going 7-1)
They play 12 of their next 14 against sub .500 teams.

My December/January bingo card has: Giannis MVP runner-up, Middleton is now healthy, Dame is in better shape this season, Doc is working magic & BUCKS are playing great. The Doris Machine is back in business!

Meanwhile, our friends in the WC, the WOLVES, play 12 of their next 13 games against teams with a winning record.
Magic 8-ball says Outlook not as good
I said this earlier…..they were more impressive in games 6 through 10 that they were losing than they have during this recent winning streak. I’m looking at their performance and not necessarily the W/L result.
 

benhogan

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I said this earlier…..they were more impressive in games 6 through 10 that they were losing than they have during this recent winning streak. I’m looking at their performance and not necessarily the W/L result.
Really? after they got smoked by the Knicks and lost to the Celtics at home you thought they looked impressive?

Yea they had 2 close games with the CAVs but sitting 2-8, I can't recall anyone being all that ecstatic about the BUCKS "performance". Did you really post that?

I've been critical of Doc's use/mpg of Giannis/Brook (thought Coach Bud did a good job there) and I know you pushed back on that. I see a sinking ship that has patched its holes, for the next 6 weeks with its schedule, that will eventually sink with an old roster that Doc runs into the rocks.
 

Kliq

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Bucks have obvious concerns about playing good teams, but for now have moved themselves out of being in the same conversation as the Sixers. Taking care of business against bad teams is part of being a good team.
 

benhogan

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Bucks have obvious concerns about playing good teams, but for now have moved themselves out of being in the same conversation as the Sixers. Taking care of business against bad teams is part of being a good team.
Oh yea there will be Doc flowers being thrown, and I told you SOs when the BUCKs sit 18-12 in January.
Doris can re-direct her Joel love with Giannis.

Everybody counted this group OUT, but Doc has proved all the naysayers wrong! will open the broadcast

BUT still expect MIL to be playing on the road in the 1st Round if they are LUCKY enough to keep their core healthy.

The 76ers are in their own special category.
 

Tony C

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Also Naz Reid doesn't seem to be as close to a KAT replacement as MIN hoped/expected.
The whole "Naz Reid" phenomenon last year got very tiring. That said, he was great off the bench, but overrating bench players is the oldest sand trap in the book.
Ant does not feel like a very rational guy... impulsive, emotional, and a front-runner. I expect all the "charisma" the media fanned over will turn ugly when he turns it onto his own team.
I kind of thought he came off better than the words out of context during that interview. And I kind of like that he called out Rudy on the court after the deliberate 3 point violation, too. He doesn't seem to excuse himself and "shit seems crazy here right now" or whatever his exact words seems a) true and b) something worth calling out publicly. Plenty of good players have spats/squabbles with a teammate or two. But Rudy is one of those guys where he alienates teammates everywhere he goes, so at some point from the outside have to assume it's him. Not to mention the evidence we've seen on the court from fighting on the sidelines with teammates to that disgraceful play the other night (though I'd have been frustrated with Julius R, too -- but that goes to Edwards' point). Not sure it's so bad having Edwards calling out his teammates like Rudy in the way he did
I’m trying to figure out how you can trade KAT for just about anyone in the league and then end up “softer”.
KAT's an imperfect player, but he sacrifices for his teammates and does what coaches tell him. I don't really know what the definition of soft is, it might just be that he seems like a nice, sensitive person. But aside from great skills, he also plays shares the ball willingly, rebounds hard, goes hard to the hoop etc. -- it's not like he's some soft guy who stays on the exterior and avoids physicality under the hoop. He's not a rim protector due to his skill set, not because of attitude. The tussles with Embiid to me show KAT in good light, but I think that's in part where the pasttime of slagging on KAT comes from (Jimmy Butler, too).

If a healthy M. Robinson comes back strong for the Knicks (a big "if", I know), KAT won't be mis-cast defensively and that will be a scary team in the playoffs.
 

jon abbey

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KAT's an imperfect player, but he sacrifices for his teammates and does what coaches tell him. I don't really know what the definition of soft is, it might just be that he seems like a nice, sensitive person. But aside from great skills, he also plays shares the ball willingly, rebounds hard, goes hard to the hoop etc. -- it's not like he's some soft guy who stays on the exterior and avoids physicality under the hoop. He's not a rim protector due to his skill set, not because of attitude. The tussles with Embiid to me show KAT in good light, but I think that's in part where the pasttime of slagging on KAT comes from (Jimmy Butler, too).
Also I think he is instructed to not contest layups sometime to avoid unnecessary fouls, because he is so crucial on offense, similar to how some MLB players (Stanton. Gary Sanchez a few years ago) are instructed to not run hard to first on routine plays. KAT is a fascinating player, I'm excited to watch more of him as the season progresses (please stay healthy).
 

Euclis20

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The whole "Naz Reid" phenomenon last year got very tiring. That said, he was great off the bench, but overrating bench players is the oldest sand trap in the book.
I kind of thought he came off better than the words out of context during that interview. And I kind of like that he called out Rudy on the court after the deliberate 3 point violation, too. He doesn't seem to excuse himself and "shit seems crazy here right now" or whatever his exact words seems a) true and b) something worth calling out publicly. Plenty of good players have spats/squabbles with a teammate or two. But Rudy is one of those guys where he alienates teammates everywhere he goes, so at some point from the outside have to assume it's him. Not to mention the evidence we've seen on the court from fighting on the sidelines with teammates to that disgraceful play the other night (though I'd have been frustrated with Julius R, too -- but that goes to Edwards' point). Not sure it's so bad having Edwards calling out his teammates like Rudy in the way he did
KAT's an imperfect player, but he sacrifices for his teammates and does what coaches tell him. I don't really know what the definition of soft is, it might just be that he seems like a nice, sensitive person. But aside from great skills, he also plays shares the ball willingly, rebounds hard, goes hard to the hoop etc. -- it's not like he's some soft guy who stays on the exterior and avoids physicality under the hoop. He's not a rim protector due to his skill set, not because of attitude. The tussles with Embiid to me show KAT in good light, but I think that's in part where the pasttime of slagging on KAT comes from (Jimmy Butler, too).

If a healthy M. Robinson comes back strong for the Knicks (a big "if", I know), KAT won't be mis-cast defensively and that will be a scary team in the playoffs.
Yeah Kat being thought of as soft is less about his attitude and more about his offensive game (primarily outside shooting) and defensive game (can't protect the rim). I don't think it's necessarily anything to do with him or his attitude. Robinson coming back will do wonders for him (just like Rudy did in Minnesota), but I'm curious if Robinson starts or if someone in the current starting 5 goes to the bench. The obvious candidate would be Hart, but he's played so much better than Bridges to start the year, I dunno.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Really? after they got smoked by the Knicks and lost to the Celtics at home you thought they looked impressive?

Yea they had 2 close games with the CAVs but sitting 2-8, I can't recall anyone being all that ecstatic about the BUCKS "performance". Did you really post that?

I've been critical of Doc's use/mpg of Giannis/Brook (thought Coach Bud did a good job there) and I know you pushed back on that. I see a sinking ship that has patched its holes, for the next 6 weeks with its schedule, that will eventually sink with an old roster that Doc runs into the rocks.
Yes 100% I did. Losing to the Knicks on the 2nd leg of a B2B wasn’t good but the two Cavs games were as was the game against the Celtics when they wiped the floor with us in the 1H. They were turning the corner during that stretch after being dreadful the first 7-10 days of the season.
 

benhogan

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Yes 100% I did. Losing to the Knicks on the 2nd leg of a B2B wasn’t good but the two Cavs games were as was the game against the Celtics when they wiped the floor with us in the 1H. They were turning the corner during that stretch after being dreadful the first 7-10 days of the season.
100% agree that Giannis/Dame/Brook will overwhelm most of the dreck in the EC. And their record will be bright & shiny by the middle of January. If playoff Middleton comes back healthy, that will be a huge boost. Prince/Green have been shooting the 3 well, which is nice to surround Giannis with. Maybe Doc will figure out his rotations in the next 2 months?

The Eastern Conf was supposed to be bad, but not THIS bad. The 76ers have completely spit the bit & Indy is sloppy so far. The BUCKS are 2 weeks into a two-month schedule holiday where they can stack wins & DOC can work on his COTY speech along with Doris' help ;)

I see the BUCKs battling the Knicks for 4/5 by season's end. Maybe their record over the next 8 weeks will have them creeping into Boston, CAVs, & Magic territory?
 

kfoss99

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West Coasters, is Rob Williams injured, again?

And, do the Kings need to shake it up, or is the West just that competitive?
 

Kliq

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West Coasters, is Rob Williams injured, again?

And, do the Kings need to shake it up, or is the West just that competitive?
The West is very competitive--plus there was a period recently where Sabonis, Monk and DeRozan were all out. They just got Sabonis and Monk back and are waiting for DeRozan. The Kings have a low ceiling because they don't play defense, but they should be in the play-in mix.
 

jon abbey

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Hartenstein's brightskin is rubbing off.
Not to correct you but because it's little known, Hartenstein is actually half Black.

"Isaiah was born in Eugene, Oregon. His father, Florian Hartenstein, is a German-American basketball coach and former professional basketball player of African-American heritage.[2] Isaiah's mother is a white American. His parents met in the United States when his father attended and played for the University of Oregon.[3]"

Josh Hart was memorably shocked when he learned this sometime last season.
 

lovegtm

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Not to correct you but because it's little known, Hartenstein is actually half Black.

"Isaiah was born in Eugene, Oregon. His father, Florian Hartenstein, is a German-American basketball coach and former professional basketball player of African-American heritage.[2] Isaiah's mother is a white American. His parents met in the United States when his father attended and played for the University of Oregon.[3]"

Josh Hart was memorably shocked when he learned this sometime last season.
I'm extremely familiar with Hartenstein lore, hence the joke :)

IH told his teammates: "you've heard of lightskin, right? Well, I'm brightskin."
 

benhogan

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For those who like to keep an eye on the NBA trade market here is a quick primer for all 30 teams:

https://hoopshype.com/lists/top-nba-trade-candidates-for-the-2024-25-season/

While rival executives believe Boston’s starting lineup will become too expensive to retain in the future under the collective bargaining agreement, that’s a bridge Boston will cross down the line.

The Celtics retained every significant player on the roster, believing their continuity puts them in the best position to repeat as champions and maximize their window as long as possible.

Before the season began, however, Boston considered a change towards the back end of its roster.

Following a strong end to the preseason for Lonnie Walker, the Celtics gauged the trade market on Jaden Springer, league sources told HoopsHype. Teams across the league hoped to pry future draft pick compensation from the Celtics for taking on Springer’s $4 million salary, sources said. However, Boston wasn’t interested in giving up future draft capital to move the 22-year-old former first-round pick. The luxury tax penalties for signing Walker IV to the 15th spot were ultimately too steep for Boston to retain him into the season.

With Springer out of the rotation and given Boston’s luxury tax situation, he’s unlikely to receive a qualifying offer this summer as well.
 

InstaFace

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I suspect we will move Springer at the deadline, stapling a second to him if necessary, and then convert a two-way player as our 14th member of the roster. The tax penalties for the incremental ~$3M of Springer's $4M salary aren't as severe this year as they'd be next year, but if we end the year with him on our roster we are paying a marginal $4.25 multiple on it, so changing him out for someone making the pro-rated rookie minimum (as a converted two-way player would) saves us $11.1M against the luxury tax. Which sounds pretty worthwhile, given the crunch we're about to be in!
 

lovegtm

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I suspect we will move Springer at the deadline, stapling a second to him if necessary, and then convert a two-way player as our 14th member of the roster. The tax penalties for the incremental ~$3M of Springer's $4M salary aren't as severe this year as they'd be next year, but if we end the year with him on our roster we are paying a marginal $4.25 multiple on it, so changing him out for someone making the pro-rated rookie minimum (as a converted two-way player would) saves us $11.1M against the luxury tax. Which sounds pretty worthwhile, given the crunch we're about to be in!
Also makes a lot of sense given that Springer won't be playing, and another guy might.

I think the plan is to take it all the way to the deadline so that his salary is pro-ratedly small for the acquiring team, and then Boston can give a correspondingly worse 2nd rounder.

EDIT: I also didn't realize that Boston has Washington's 2nd this year, which is going to be a really good 2nd, and probably more valuable than a late 1st. They'll probably be able to restock the 2nd rounder cupboard just by trading that down a few times (easier than trading down a late 1st, because the contract is better).
 

DavidTai

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EDIT: I also didn't realize that Boston has Washington's 2nd this year, which is going to be a really good 2nd, and probably more valuable than a late 1st. They'll probably be able to restock the 2nd rounder cupboard just by trading that down a few times (easier than trading down a late 1st, because the contract is better).
Wouldn't we be better off keeping that second ourselves and using it?
 

lovegtm

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Wouldn't we be better off keeping that second ourselves and using it?
The Celtics have given up a fair number of 2nds, and need to restock that supply because 2nds are the currency for a lot of deals. You then have to weigh the value of those deals vs. taking a shot on a specific guy at #33 or whatever, as opposed to taking that shot at (e.g.) #41.
 

the moops

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The Celtics have given up a fair number of 2nds, and need to restock that supply because 2nds are the currency for a lot of deals. You then have to weigh the value of those deals vs. taking a shot on a specific guy at #33 or whatever, as opposed to taking that shot at (e.g.) #41.
They have given up a fair number, but are only down 2 picks, and those are out in 2028 and 2029. They definitely do not need to trade this WAS pick if there is someone they want.

BOS gets some nice 2nds the next 3 years. Much better than their own picks they are sending out

2025 - best pick of WAS, DET, DAL, GSW
2026 - best of POR, NOP, MIN, NYK
2027 - worse of NOP, POR
 

benhogan

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I said this earlier…..they were more impressive in games 6 through 10 that they were losing than they have during this recent winning streak. I’m looking at their performance and not necessarily the W/L result.
Smoking Detroit in the first half tonight, the Bucks look like a different team than earlier this season.

Really well spaced on offense, with Prince/Green nailing plenty of Corner3s

Nice wager.
 

Euclis20

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Giannis also did what he's been doing all year, which is play like an MVP (he would've had another 30+ point triple double if he'd played in the 4th quarter, and he missed just one shot from the field). His FT% is the worst of his career and his 3P% is the worst in a decade, but he's still leading the league in ppg and shooting a career high from the field (he's only taken 11 3PAs this year, smart).
 

tims4wins

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Giannis also did what he's been doing all year, which is play like an MVP (he would've had another 30+ point triple double if he'd played in the 4th quarter, and he missed just one shot from the field). His FT% is the worst of his career and his 3P% is the worst in a decade, but he's still leading the league in ppg and shooting a career high from the field (he's only taken 11 3PAs this year, smart).
It's 14 now, in 18 games.

Probably SSS, but kind of interesting that he's taken 4 in 2 games against the Celts, and 10 in the other 16 games.
 

Royal Reader

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How exactly did the Lakers manage to get their asses kicked quite that comprehensively? It's honestly difficult to give up that many points to this Heat team.
 

HomeRunBaker

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How exactly did the Lakers manage to get their asses kicked quite that comprehensively? It's honestly difficult to give up that many points to this Heat team.
Heat shot 52-90 including 24-47 from three…..Herro hitting 7 threes in the 3Q alone didn’t hurt either.