General Celtics thread: 24-25 edition

MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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You have to wonder if there isn't a little bit of "I got the thing that I wanted my whole life and it didn't make me any happier" stuff going on for some pretty cerebral guys. For Al, obviously, even for Tatum/Brown/KP/White, they've been on the grind for a long time trying to get that Chip. Now they've got it — and things haven't changed. They still have to do the work. No one on the outside is satisfied. Etc. It can be a mindfuck when you get to the mountaintop and realize there's always going to be another mountain.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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You have to wonder if there isn't a little bit of "I got the thing that I wanted my whole life and it didn't make me any happier" stuff going on for some pretty cerebral guys. For Al, obviously, even for Tatum/Brown/KP/White, they've been on the grind for a long time trying to get that Chip. Now they've got it — and things haven't changed. They still have to do the work. No one on the outside is satisfied. Etc. It can be a mindfuck when you get to the mountaintop and realize there's always going to be another mountain.
I can't imagine that Al isn't happier now that he doesn't have to hear the comments about how long he's played without a ring and I know JT has said that he needs multiple rings to get where he wants to go - to be compared with the greatest of all time.

It's interesting that they seem to play better on the road than at home? Maybe their success has lead to distractions at home? I'm sure they all have a lot going on.
 

RorschachsMask

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Besides the fact that everyone not named Pritchard/Tatum has regressed from last season, I think the biggest thing is they are trying to pace themselves. They just need to find the right level of pacing themselves.

The league is too good for whatever level of effort they’ve been putting in recently lol, and everyone is guilty of it.
 
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Neil Ave

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Besides the fact that everyone not named Pritchard/Tatum has regressed from last season, I think the biggest thing is they are trying to pace themselves. They just need to find the right level of pacing themselves.

The league is too good for whatever level of effort they’ve been putting in recently lol, and everyone is guilty of it.
We tend to wrap it all up in "effort" but I think to be fair it's not quite that simple. They're just not playing well. The attention to detail in all facets is just a little off. Not quite as physical defensively, not quite as sharp in their spacing on either end, not consistently trusting the next pass, not shooting the three well, etc. Some of that is tied to effort, but I've also watched games in this stretch where it seemed to me they were playing hard but they still weren't playing especially well.

If I had to guess, I'd bet they're on the verge of a turnaround. KP's quotes after last night's loss are a good sign.
 

RorschachsMask

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We tend to wrap it all up in "effort" but I think to be fair it's not quite that simple. They're just not playing well. The attention to detail in all facets is just a little off. Not quite as physical defensively, not quite as sharp in their spacing on either end, not consistently trusting the next pass, not shooting the three well, etc. Some of that is tied to effort, but I've also watched games in this stretch where it seemed to me they were playing hard but they still weren't playing especially well.

If I had to guess, I'd bet they're on the verge of a turnaround. KP's quotes after last night's loss are a good sign.
Their effort defensively has been really poor, especially the perimeter guys. On that end, it has been that simple IMO.

I don’t think offense is really an effort thing, just most of them sucking. They also definitely pace themselves on that end, no point is driving constantly in the regular season.
 
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Euclis20

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Their effort defensively has been really poor, especially the perimeter guys. On that end, it has been that simple IMO.

I don’t think offense is really an effort thing, just most of them sucking. They also definitely pace themselves on that end, no point is driving constantly in the regular season.
One feeds into the other. Poor 3 point shooting leads to more long rebounds leads to more fast breaks and more efficient scoring by the opponent.
 

astrozombie

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I haven't seen every game but from what I have:
1. Agree with other posters that the intensity is not there, especially on D. I have to believe that is some version of championship hangover - the intensity of playing full throttle for mid-January games isn't going to be there the same way it was before winning it all. Not that this is good, but I understand it on some level. What concerns me is the idea that teams can just flip the switch and turn it on when it matters; I think the record is spotty on that.
2. The Cs are getting everyone's best shot every game. That's a drag.
3. It pains me, but Holiday, Hauser and to a lesser extent Al look like worse versions of themselves than last year. All of them played beyond their contracts last year, but this year Holiday seems to disappear for stretches, Hauser looks like his back still hurts and Al is finally showing his age. That doesn't make them bad, but if last year were A versions of them, this year it is C versions of them.

This is still a top team in the East that can go 7 games with anyone, but their path to the Finals is much harder than last year. Here's hoping they can find a way to get right, get rested and catch fire at the right time.
 

ObstructedView

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It's interesting to me that they seemed to briefly revert to their sharp selves following the uneven homestand that preceded the MN/Houston/OKC road stretch. Mazz talked at the start of the trip about how he and the team were looking forward to that challenge. They then went out and beat the Wolves and Rockets back-to-back and played three good quarters against the white-hot Thunder before that one imploded due to a combination of a swarming OKC team and ref-ball. I'm certainly not saying that it's all about effort, but I can't help but think that boredom is at least a contributing factor at times - along with fatigue, shooting regression, and post-KP-return growing pains.
 

radsoxfan

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It's interesting to me that they seemed to briefly revert to their sharp selves following the uneven homestand that preceded the MN/Houston/OKC road stretch. Mazz talked at the start of the trip about how he and the team were looking forward to that challenge. They then went out and beat the Wolves and Rockets back-to-back and played three good quarters against the white-hot Thunder before that one imploded due to a combination of a swarming OKC team and ref-ball. I'm certainly not saying that it's all about effort, but I can't help but think that boredom is at least a contributing factor at times - along with fatigue, shooting regression, and post-KP-return growing pains.
I think a decent chunk of it is effort for sure. And a somewhat odd lack of connectivity on offense.

As far as non-effort things I'm worried about:

--Jrue looking pretty cooked. I know he ramped it up last year after a slow start, but this is worse. DARKO think's he's collapsing and he has had knee issues in the past. His play is concerning.

--Al is old. I'm not sure if the shooting slump is age related but he's just an old guy and he's starting to look like it more often

--KP injuries/fragility. He had a very weird injury in the Finals, not sure what to expect as far as bouncing back, but he looks slow and stiff

--Jaylen's shooting and D. He looks mostly disinterested and has no confidence in his shot.


Tatum, White, PP, and Hauser I think will be fine.

It's still early, not panic time yet, but I think Brad is paying extra close attention right now given the looming tax issues.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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guy from CsBlog compiled some of the defensive mistakes from the Raptors game below.

Karalis on his last pod mentioned that he thought this was the worst game for JB in recent memory. I can't argue with that. Karalis also mentioned that he hoped this was just a momentary blip and there's nothing that we don't know about going on with him.

View: https://twitter.com/NElGHT_/status/1879896549754626400?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1879896549754626400|twgr^117a87aa90acedfb7c33423da114c61e1c8ca2bf|twcon^s1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.celticsblog.com%2F2025%2F1%2F16%2F24345159%2Fboston-celtics-toronto-raptors-ten-takeaways-jayson-tatum-payton-pritchard-kristaps-porzingis
 

Eddie Jurak

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One thing that is somewhat interesting is that as the team has fallen apart, Queta has essentially been banished to the bench. I'm not sure what to make of that. He brings a level of energy that we aren't seeing from the guys who are playing right now, but he also doesn't really have the level of skill to execute the offense and defense. Of course, the guys who do have that aren't executing either.

For better or worse, Mazzulla seems inclined to let the main guys try to play through whatever this is, rather than trying to shake things up even a little.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Quetta, to me, disrupts things because he doesn’t know where to go and gets out of place—sometimes aggressively and making plays, sometimes lost. He’s interesting, and I agree on the effort point for sure, but I suspect his minutes dropping reflects sense that if there’s already connectivity issues he will amplify them
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Queta's minutes have dropped because there are only so many minutes at center and KP and Al get most of them and Kornet is getting the non-Queta minutes since BOS has played more drop since KP has come back.

BOS is going to live and die by the starting 5. If they continue to be -8 points/100 possessions, they aren't going anywhere, so they need to play together to figure things out. Maybe shooting luck is just a big part of the problem. From this CsBlog article: Patience over panic: Kristaps Porzingis and the Boston Celtics struggles - CelticsBlog

It can’t be ignored that the Celtics are also getting hit by a wrecking ball of poor shooting luck in his minutes. Opponents are hitting 33.78% of their three-pointers with him on the bench, compared to a ridiculously efficient 41.78% when he’s on the court. To make matters worse, Boston is converting 37.21% of their own 3’s without KP, and just 32.95% with him.
 

128

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C's needed a game like this. Now let's see if they can do it again tomorrow nite against ATL, which often gives them fits with its energy and athleticism.
 

128

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Interesting that, with another game tonite, the C's didn't rest Horford or Porzingis against Orlando. Maybe they felt they needed all their weapons to get out of their funk, or maybe KP is playing tonite, too.
 

DavidTai

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Interesting that, with another game tonite, the C's didn't rest Horford or Porzingis against Orlando. Maybe they felt they needed all their weapons to get out of their funk, or maybe KP is playing tonite, too.
At some point they need to get Porzingis and Horford used to playing off each other again so this might be the beginning of the ramp up?
 

lexrageorge

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Interesting that, with another game tonite, the C's didn't rest Horford or Porzingis against Orlando. Maybe they felt they needed all their weapons to get out of their funk, or maybe KP is playing tonite, too.
Joe has mentioned multiple times that the starting lineup plus Al has not had much opportunity to play together this season, and the team's slump seems to have coincided with KP's return (although that could just be coincidence). This is as good as time as any to try to work the kinks out, especially with the trade deadline less than 3 weeks away and a looming west coast trip.
 

128

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Is it unusual for an Eastern Conference team to have two West Coast trips in such a short span? Maybe it happens every season and I just never noticed.
 

lovegtm

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Obviously the shooting disparity favored the Celtics a lot, and we've seen plenty of games with similar look quality for them where they shot 10-37 instead of 17-37. Orlando also couldn't make anything; you can chalk that up to defense (and the defense was better!), but the gap in this game wasn't as big as it seemed. The OKC game easily could have felt like this after 3 quarters, if the Celtics had shot just badly instead of godawful.

That said, some really nice offensive things that I'll say in next post.
 

lexrageorge

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Is it unusual for an Eastern Conference team to have two West Coast trips in such a short span? Maybe it happens every season and I just never noticed.
Usually, an east coat team gets 2 west coast trips. Celtics have another one (Phoenix, Portland, Sacramento) in late March. The last trip was more of a Western Conference swing (Minnesota, Oklahoma, Denver, Houston) than a true west coast trip (which I define as going to CA, OR, or AZ). Some years, 2 or even all 3 of the Texas teams get combined into one road trip, but that doesn't always happen.
 

lovegtm

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Orlando likes to take away 3s and rely on their guys to hold up 1-on-1. We've seen that gameplan a LOT now against Boston, and I thought they did a good job taking advantage of it, and just spacing well and going inside repeatedly.

They did a nice thing with KP: they started posting him on the block, usually with an empty-side PnR, instead of at the FT line. This let him start closer to the basket (he's always a threat to shoot the short jumper) without risking a 3-second call, and then he was able to do his thing where he pumpfakes a lot, draws fouls, draws help, etc. I think we'll see a lot more of that going forward.

In the 2nd half, you know Orlando is going to adjust and start helping more, and the Celtics did a good job coming out looking to kick out for and shoot 3s, rather than getting bogged down going inside against help.
 

lovegtm

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The KP number is crazy lol, but not surprising considering how bad the starting 5 has been, which feels mighty flukey.View attachment 94929
Yeah, combination of flukey and off-rhythm.

Last night felt like the first time they really balanced where KP was getting his postups, when he would roll, when he would pop to 3....there's a rhythm they're going to need to get.

It also helped that Orlando missed a lot of the open 3s he gives up too often.
 

lovegtm

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At this point, I guess I believe in theory that it's possible for Celtics players to make three-pointers. But it's belief in the way that people believe in god, not the way they believe in gravity.
 

128

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Next up for the C's are back-to-back games in L.A.: Clippers on Wednesday, Lakers on Thursday.

The road ain't getting any easier.
 

The Mort Report

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I was always expecting a 2 month tax this season from the chip last season. It's happening, it's fine, no injuries, and not going to worry about their play til March. Do you really expect them to be fully invested mid January?
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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I'll be fully honest and say I haven't watched much Cs basketball this season, so if this is way off base, feel free to shoot it down.

Is there any chance that the teams desire to pivot into more zone defense is a large contributing factor here? I'm not sure if it's still the case, but it felt like there was a lot of talk about the Cs playing significantly more zone D right when the defensive metrics started to crumble. And if so, I doubt this is something Joe Mazz is unaware of. Perhaps this is a case of short term growing pains with a focus on long term benefits?
 

kfoss99

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There's a lot of evidence pointing to everyone being exhausted, and Hauser with a sore back.

There must be a way to get guys some games off and avoid penalty from the league office.

If we're going to lose, lose games where the deep bench gets some real reps.
 

Eddie Jurak

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There's a lot of evidence pointing to everyone being exhausted, and Hauser with a sore back.

There must be a way to get guys some games off and avoid penalty from the league office.

If we're going to lose, lose games where the deep bench gets some real reps.
It's not just, or even primarily, physical exhaustion. I think it is more of a mental thing. They lack focus, they fail to execute things that should be simple for them, they play OK for stretches but when opponents buckle down the Celtics wilt.

The most important question of this season is whether or not this is just a temporary thing. They have looked bad enough for long enough now that I don't think the possibility that it is going to be a lasting thing can be dismissed out of hand. If they enter the playoffs like this, they aren't reaching round 2.
 

kfoss99

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It's not just, or even primarily, physical exhaustion. I think it is more of a mental thing. They lack focus...
Yep. That's why I used the word exhausted and not tired. Jrue messing up a play that would have clinched the game sealed it for me.

When I have the time, I want to see what the career games plus playoffs are for these guys. Jrue, Horford, Brown, and Tatum have played a ton of games. Jrue and Tatum just played in the Olympics.

I don't think they're as bad as they are now. They played great into, about, mid- December.

But, Mazzulla and Stevens have a real challenge ahead of them to get these guys back to that point. Right now, a first or second round exit and a regroup for next season seems highly possible.
 

lovegtm

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It's not just, or even primarily, physical exhaustion. I think it is more of a mental thing. They lack focus, they fail to execute things that should be simple for them, they play OK for stretches but when opponents buckle down the Celtics wilt.
...
I agree it looks a lot like mental exhaustion, but mental and physical are very connected. It can take a decent amount of physical downtime to mentally recharge.
 

benhogan

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Is there any chance that the teams desire to pivot into more zone defense is a large contributing factor here? I'm not sure if it's still the case, but it felt like there was a lot of talk about the Cs playing significantly more zone D right when the defensive metrics started to crumble. And if so, I doubt this is something Joe Mazz is unaware of. Perhaps this is a case of short term growing pains with a focus on long term benefits?
CJM experimenting with an extended zone/trap defense is a good idea. See Miami going with size on the top, trapping the ballhandler or funneling into the BIG.

Unfortunately, that's not what they have been doing. They've played a passive, packed-in Zone with the top of the zone below the 3pt line. You also can't go Double BIG in a zone or you're going to give up open Corner3s.

If CJM wants more live ball turnovers (an active zone will create that) they have to move JB/Jrue to the top, extend 42' out, & get very physical with the ball handler (force the Refs to whistle).

An engaged Jaylen Brown is a terror on-ball defender (won him Finals MVP). A disengaged JB in the back of the zone who trots back in transition is a poor defender.

The results have predictably been terrible. It's a combo of bad coaching/approach with awful execution.

Championship run + Olympics + team-wide shooting slump for a month + every team wants the C's scalp has turned this season into a SLOG. Even the impervious Derrick White has fallen victim to their recent Tom Foolery. They have time to bust out of it, but it will probably take a few All-Star snubs (DW/Brown) + a week of rest to stir this group.
 

RorschachsMask

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I don’t think effort was an issue at all last night, just weren’t able to make shots, and incredibly poor off ball defense.
 

MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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I don’t think effort was an issue at all last night, just weren’t able to make shots, and incredibly poor off ball defense.
Yeah, if anything they were trying too hard to “turn things around.” Lots of wild drives to the hoop, over-helping, attempts to jump the passing lanes, too-anxious close-outs, etc. A lot of aiming instead of pitching, in general.

I like that Hawks team, too, though. As Scal was pointing out, Quinn’s got them protecting Trae really well now. The killer whale could not separate him from the pack! They were good at funneling the rotation to Pritch and forcing him to take long threes (some of which he hit!) and in general forcing the Cs to be hesitant in their takes.

But there were MANY open threes, too, that didn’t go down.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I don’t think effort was an issue at all last night, just weren’t able to make shots, and incredibly poor off ball defense.
Depends what you mean by effort. Poor off ball defense means they might be working hard in a cardio sense but not productively in a doing they things they need to do to win sense. I think of that as part of effort.
 

lovegtm

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Depends what you mean by effort. Poor off ball defense means they might be working hard in a cardio sense but not productively in a doing they things they need to do to win sense. I think of that as part of effort.
Yeah, there's clearly some focus and mental fatigue issues.

I'm concerned that they're going to keep trying to reboot things every week for the next couple months and just end up mentally exhausted.
 

jasail

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You know things aren't going well when Jrue Holiday makes two terrible decisions on back to back plays in the closing seconds of the game. IIRC, he forced the pass to Jaylen rather than taking the foul, which turned the ball over and kept the C's lead at 2. Then he got beat by Trae and either forgot they didn't have a foul to give, or didn't know the score but he got caught reaching in and gave Trae two shots for the tie. It's a slog right now. I think they really need the ASB to recharge for the stretch run. I don't think PBOBS blows this thing up mid-season and moves KP or Jrue, so we're running it back with what we have. Hopefully, they can flip the switch. If they can, I'm not too worried about the standings, we know this team can play on the road and we know how tough it is for another team to beat them four times given the bevy of matchup challenges they present.
 

jmcc5400

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I don’t think effort was an issue at all last night, just weren’t able to make shots, and incredibly poor off ball defense.
Except for what should have been Atlanta’s last non-foul game possession of the 4th quarter, when they turned up the screws and forced tge turnover. It’s what makes the loss so galling.