General Celtics thread: 24-25 edition

InstaFace

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Thats fair.

NBA vets with 4-5 years of NBA experience (veteran minimums) aren't really pari passu with zero experience minimum players. I'd never advocate for more than 1-2 rookies on a contender (unless Larry Bird is walking through that door).

ALSO are people still expecting the Celtics to spend $500M (7.5X) next year? I can't imagine that's happening.
Just spitballing, but if you sign a player from (say) Europe or China, they might be willing to play for the rookie minimum, and something like $800k worth of buyout from their current club contract won't count against the cap, but for practical purposes they'd probably come in as an experienced pro (as experienced as you like, really), rather than a raw 19-year-old. If Brad really wanted to go bargain-basement here for the 14th man next year, after firing Springer or whoever out of a cannon, he could probably find a serviceable player in one of those leagues and bring them in on a sub-vet-min deal, couldn't he?
 

ALiveH

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Just spitballing, but if you sign a player from (say) Europe or China, they might be willing to play for the rookie minimum, and something like $800k worth of buyout from their current club contract won't count against the cap, but for practical purposes they'd probably come in as an experienced pro (as experienced as you like, really), rather than a raw 19-year-old. If Brad really wanted to go bargain-basement here for the 14th man next year, after firing Springer or whoever out of a cannon, he could probably find a serviceable player in one of those leagues and bring them in on a sub-vet-min deal, couldn't he?
This is an interesting avenue to explore.

Do the Daniel Theis types still exist or are they getting paid too much to consider coming over?
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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This is an interesting avenue to explore.

Do the Daniel Theis types still exist or are they getting paid too much to consider coming over?
I think it's harder than it was when DA was signing Theis, Wannamaker, and Larkin.

Here's a list of some of the top Euroleague players who might come over to the NBA: https://hoopshype.com/lists/euroleague-players-who-could-move-to-the-nba-this-summer/. Some of these guys still have draft rights attached to them. Others are getting paid enough that they aren't coming to the NBA without guaranteed contracts.

Man it's amazing that Mike James still makes these lists.
 

HomeRunBaker

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If it wasn't Jrue, it would have been someone else (Brogdon and picks were being moved)

16-3 would not have happened, but they would have still won it IMO.

BUT I'm thrilled they had Jrue, there was zero stress.
Yes, this goes back to the Brunson question. People forget that we never saw a Game 6 during last years playoffs.
 

DavidTai

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I think it's harder than it was when DA was signing Theis, Wannamaker, and Larkin.

Here's a list of some of the top Euroleague players who might come over to the NBA: https://hoopshype.com/lists/euroleague-players-who-could-move-to-the-nba-this-summer/. Some of these guys still have draft rights attached to them. Others are getting paid enough that they aren't coming to the NBA without guaranteed contracts.

Man it's amazing that Mike James still makes these lists.
I did rather hope they'd sign Yabusele...
 

InstaFace

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yeah plus Yabu was one of the handful of Euroleague players making money comparable to NBA minimums.

This is an interesting avenue to explore.

Do the Daniel Theis types still exist or are they getting paid too much to consider coming over?
The short answer to your question is "they're not getting paid too much, and they still exist, the hard part is identifying them".

There aren't many public sources, but from what I've read, there's probably only about a dozen Euroleague players making more than the NBA vet minimum (this year $2.3M), and a few dozen more making more than the rookie minimum ($1.2M). And that's across dozens of top teams. Shane Larkin was one of them for a little while. Every so often, someone will get some data and put up a "top 15 earning euroleague players!" listicle and it'll update my understanding but there hasn't been much of a sea change.

And part of what they'd be coming over for, even beyond the guaranteed salary, is that if they can end up being even marginally useful on an NBA roster, the money can quickly grow to well beyond what they'd ever be able to make abroad, even as a star for the likes of Real Madrid (which Yabusele was) or, say, Panathinaikos. So part of the motivation is a bet on upside.

Now, who are those players who have established themselves as high-quality pros in the Euros but who are young enough and ambitious enough to want to make a move, and furthermore look to have the attributes necessary to quickly translate to the NBA? Fuck if I know, I'm no scout. But I think there's a lot of inertia and status-quo bias on both sides: players get comfortable living somewhere, and NBA execs are herd-followers who don't want to be the first one to give minutes to an unproven guy in another league. Once Theis got the stamp of approval, he's been bouncing around the league just fine, but the next 5 Theises (Theisen?), who'd be reasonable bets to do likewise, probably don't have their phone ringing that often.

His case is illustrative of the type we're looking for, though, for sure. Makes his country's top division at age 18, joins its top team at 20, is starring for them by 22, NBA comes calling at 25. I think ideally we'd want players in that age 22-26 window of "have plenty of odometer left, but have established good professional habits and a variety of useful skills - and are still young enough to be open to moving".
 

lovegtm

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As a side note, it's crazy how much more money Theis has made just by sticking in the league for a bit. $40M career earnings vs. what probably would have been $5-10M career. The upside is really big if a guy can find a role one time.
 

benhogan

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Just spitballing, but if you sign a player from (say) Europe or China, they might be willing to play for the rookie minimum, and something like $800k worth of buyout from their current club contract won't count against the cap, but for practical purposes they'd probably come in as an experienced pro (as experienced as you like, really), rather than a raw 19-year-old. If Brad really wanted to go bargain-basement here for the 14th man next year, after firing Springer or whoever out of a cannon, he could probably find a serviceable player in one of those leagues and bring them in on a sub-vet-min deal, couldn't he?
Fair comment. We await the arrival of Yam or Begarin ;)
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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yeah plus Yabu was one of the handful of Euroleague players making money comparable to NBA minimums.


The short answer to your question is "they're not getting paid too much, and they still exist, the hard part is identifying them".

There aren't many public sources, but from what I've read, there's probably only about a dozen Euroleague players making more than the NBA vet minimum (this year $2.3M), and a few dozen more making more than the rookie minimum ($1.2M). And that's across dozens of top teams. Shane Larkin was one of them for a little while. Every so often, someone will get some data and put up a "top 15 earning euroleague players!" listicle and it'll update my understanding but there hasn't been much of a sea change.

And part of what they'd be coming over for, even beyond the guaranteed salary, is that if they can end up being even marginally useful on an NBA roster, the money can quickly grow to well beyond what they'd ever be able to make abroad, even as a star for the likes of Real Madrid (which Yabusele was) or, say, Panathinaikos. So part of the motivation is a bet on upside.

Now, who are those players who have established themselves as high-quality pros in the Euros but who are young enough and ambitious enough to want to make a move, and furthermore look to have the attributes necessary to quickly translate to the NBA? Fuck if I know, I'm no scout. But I think there's a lot of inertia and status-quo bias on both sides: players get comfortable living somewhere, and NBA execs are herd-followers who don't want to be the first one to give minutes to an unproven guy in another league. Once Theis got the stamp of approval, he's been bouncing around the league just fine, but the next 5 Theises (Theisen?), who'd be reasonable bets to do likewise, probably don't have their phone ringing that often.

His case is illustrative of the type we're looking for, though, for sure. Makes his country's top division at age 18, joins its top team at 20, is starring for them by 22, NBA comes calling at 25. I think ideally we'd want players in that age 22-26 window of "have plenty of odometer left, but have established good professional habits and a variety of useful skills - and are still young enough to be open to moving".
Here's a recent top 10: Top 10 highest-paid EuroLeague players - Basketnews.com
 

HomeRunBaker

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I was a Begarin believer after seeing him in Vegas...Summer League is a big tease
I was the first summer but when he returned and hadn’t appeared to make a significant leap at his age I quickly cooled. Physicals give you hope but they aren’t the end all be all….ask Romeo.
 

benhogan

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I was the first summer but when he returned and hadn’t appeared to make a significant leap at his age I quickly cooled. Physicals give you hope but they aren’t the end all be all….ask Romeo.
Me thinks, Romeo's work ethic was art thou lacking.

RL was one of many players that Brad had to shed from the roster he took over Year 1.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Me thinks, Romeo's work ethic was art thou lacking.

RL was one of many players that Brad had to shed from the roster he took over Year 1.
Romeo worked with JMazz. I doubt JMazzould work with someone who didn't put the hours in. According to all reports, Romeo put the work in. E.g., https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2020/02/boston-celtics-romeo-langford-steps-up-with-bigger-responsibility-hes-been-in-the-gym-and-you-can-see-it.html.

Romeo's biggest issue was health; his second issue was obviously his jumper, which got better but never really good enough for the modern NBA and the role he was supposed to play. Apparently playing in France for the time being. https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2020/02/boston-celtics-romeo-langford-steps-up-with-bigger-responsibility-hes-been-in-the-gym-and-you-can-see-it.html
 

HomeRunBaker

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Romeo worked with JMazz. I doubt JMazzould work with someone who didn't put the hours in. According to all reports, Romeo put the work in. E.g., https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2020/02/boston-celtics-romeo-langford-steps-up-with-bigger-responsibility-hes-been-in-the-gym-and-you-can-see-it.html.
Just being in the gym doesn’t do much for me. All of these guys spend time in the gym when they are asked/mandated to be there. Activity or achievement?
 

benhogan

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Romeo worked with JMazz. I doubt JMazzould work with someone who didn't put the hours in. According to all reports, Romeo put the work in. E.g., https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2020/02/boston-celtics-romeo-langford-steps-up-with-bigger-responsibility-hes-been-in-the-gym-and-you-can-see-it.html.

Romeo's biggest issue was health; his second issue was obviously his jumper, which got better but never really good enough for the modern NBA and the role he was supposed to play. Apparently playing in France for the time being. https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2020/02/boston-celtics-romeo-langford-steps-up-with-bigger-responsibility-hes-been-in-the-gym-and-you-can-see-it.html
Thats fair. I liked Romeo, thought his defense had potential (more than his jumper), recall him holding his own against Bron.

He didn't work out. Brad identified it & didn't dwell on his "potential". SAS made a small gamble on him, used for salary ballast to heist White. Nesmith turned out better, chalk one up for skill over raw athleticism
 

tims4wins

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Not gonna lie, I’m worried about Jrue at this point. I hope this looks really dumb in six months. But I feel like he’s been awful this year.
 

benhogan

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Not gonna lie, I’m worried about Jrue at this point. I hope this looks really dumb in six months. But I feel like he’s been awful this year.
Long season + the Olympics. At 34, he probably had light workouts for the rest of the Summer.

He has also mentioned that he plays at 85% during the regular season (or something like that).
He did look like a different player when the playoffs rolled around last year.

One Jrue bright spot, TOV% is lower.

I'm having a hard time nit-picking anything about the Celtics. Close games are good for the growth of this group.
Feel spoiled by the Coaching, Players, and Front Office.

I am looking forward to KP's return.
 

Jimbodandy

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Long season + the Olympics. At 34, he probably had light workouts for the rest of the Summer.

He has also mentioned that he plays at 85% during the regular season (or something like that).
He did look like a different player when the playoffs rolled around last year.

One Jrue bright spot, TOV% is lower.

I'm having a hard time nit-picking anything about the Celtics. Close games are good for the growth of this group.
Feel spoiled by the Coaching, Players, and Front Office.

I am looking forward to KP's return.
Yep. We're gonna have to look hard to find things to complain about.

And I have confidence that we will do so.
 

tims4wins

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To be clear, I am not seeking out reasons to complain. I have faith in Jrue. And his stats (especially shooting %) are better than I thought. I did think his decision making was poor last night. But this guy is THE consummate professional amongst all professionals.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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To be clear, I am not seeking out reasons to complain. I have faith in Jrue. And his stats (especially shooting %) are better than I thought. I did think his decision making was poor last night. But this guy is THE consummate professional amongst all professionals.
Well, when a player loses 20%-25% on one aspect of his shooting, it's usually a really bad sign but for Jrue, that just means he went from 60+% on corner 3Ps to 37-ish% (though I miss the days when I was surprised when Jrue didn't make a corner 3P).

Adventures when Jrue gets to the rim is pretty much part of his brand but he's gotta keep doing it.

I thought the NYK game and the first 1/2 of CLE had Jrue playing closer to 100%. He's a beast out there on D when he does that.
 

benhogan

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To be clear, I am not seeking out reasons to complain. I have faith in Jrue. And his stats (especially shooting %) are better than I thought. I did think his decision making was poor last night. But this guy is THE consummate professional amongst all professionals.
It's a fair point. Jrue hasn't looked great.

16th NBA season + 34 + a sizeable extension are all legitimate concerns

Sometimes, you forget he's on the court with the JAYs and White's offensive role expansion. Then, all of a sudden, swing-swing will lead to open Corner3 for Jrue. It's pretty comforting for us & demoralizing for the opponent.
 

TripleOT

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Jrue is clearly coasting. He engages in pushing his offense only when necessary, and goes into beast mode defensively only in crunch time of a tight game, or to cool off a hot scorer during a game.
 

Jimbodandy

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To be clear, I am not seeking out reasons to complain. I have faith in Jrue. And his stats (especially shooting %) are better than I thought. I did think his decision making was poor last night. But this guy is THE consummate professional amongst all professionals.
FWIW, I hope that it didn't look like my joke was pointed at you. We brought back the best team in the league and runaway winner of last year's title and then extended the whole rotation, and we still have draft picks and Stevens/Zarren babysitting the whole operation and a great coach. But it's a discussion board, so we'll find things to discuss. And if we lose two in a row, we'll all panic and start complaining about Jaylen's handle. It's who we are.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I thought I saw the 2-1-2 zone for a couple of plays last night but I wasn't able to watch closely.

Is it just me or have the Cs not really played much zone yet this year? This was something that CJM put in last year to try to take advantage of Jrue's defensive insight.
 

lovegtm

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If we're going to worry about something, it's that healthy Cleveland and OKC are real challengers now.

Cleveland is doing the scary thing where they bring in a new coach who completely unlocks the same talent, and you realize how much more upside a group.
 

tims4wins

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If we're going to worry about something, it's that healthy Cleveland and OKC are real challengers now.

Cleveland is doing the scary thing where they bring in a new coach who completely unlocks the same talent, and you realize how much more upside a group.
Fair, but those would be the ECF and the Finals, respectively. It's supposed to be hard by that point.
 

RorschachsMask

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On/off differential for the rotation players, per PBP stats.

Tatum +17.38
White +10.91
Jaylen +7.21
Jrue +2.76
Luke +1.60
Hauser +1.41
Queta: -1.59
Al -4.46
Pritchard -7.27

The starters have kicked ass, and the bench players have been dragged down by some shitty garbage time
 
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Jimbodandy

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On/off differential for the rotation players, per PBP stats.

Tatum +17.38
White +10.91
Jaylen +7.21
Jrue +2.76
Luke +1.60
Hauser +1.41
Queta: -1.59
Al -4.46
Pritchard -7.27

The starters have kicked ass, and the bench players have been dragged down by some shitty garbage time
I'll join the complaining club here. Pritchard's abysmal differential is entirely unsurprising to me, as I now note the score when he checks in and wait to see the lead shrink. Generally that's what happens.

FWIW, I don't think that it's entirely his fault. A lot of Pritchard's minutes lately seem to be on those "entire bench plus one starter" lineups, which does nothing to mask his lack of off-ball awareness/effort and alligator arms length. His on-ball progress the last two years is good enough that he doesn't kill you when good defenders are around him. And of course on the nights where he bangs five threes, the points that he gives up matter less.

I'd like to see Joe tweak things a little and have slightly more advantageous defensive lineups when PP is in the game. It's a weird side effect of having your starters be your best defenders. It's nitpicking, I concede.
 

RorschachsMask

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I'll join the complaining club here. Pritchard's abysmal differential is entirely unsurprising to me, as I now note the score when he checks in and wait to see the lead shrink. Generally that's what happens.

FWIW, I don't think that it's entirely his fault. A lot of Pritchard's minutes lately seem to be on those "entire bench plus one starter" lineups, which does nothing to mask his lack of off-ball awareness/effort and alligator arms length. His on-ball progress the last two years is good enough that he doesn't kill you when good defenders are around him. And of course on the nights where he bangs five threes, the points that he gives up matter less.

I'd like to see Joe tweak things a little and have slightly more advantageous defensive lineups when PP is in the game. It's a weird side effect of having your starters be your best defenders. It's nitpicking, I concede.
I’ll have a longer post about it later today, but I do not think you can have Pritchard and Queta out there together. Celtics talk about how they hunt the seals, well Queta is a seal, and while Pritchard tries so hard defensively, he’s just too small lol.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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If I were tweaking here - and yesterday felt like they did it for the first time - I'd give Queta less run to see if that mitigates the defensive breakdowns, while keeping Pritchard's minutes constant.

Pritchard does get targeted and beaten but as noted upthread it feels like he can be "hidden" effectively with the right lineups. And if Queta can't figure out rotations etc, he has to sit.

Tillman is maybe one of the most challenged offensive players the Cs have had in years but his D, while spotty, is probably going to see more time in the coming days.

But it is the regular season and Joe likes to experiment so maybe Queta sees more chances given his upside.
 

Jimbodandy

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If I were tweaking here - and yesterday felt like they did it for the first time - I'd give Queta less run to see if that mitigates the defensive breakdowns, while keeping Pritchard's minutes constant.

Pritchard does get targeted and beaten but as noted upthread it feels like he can be "hidden" effectively with the right lineups. And if Queta can't figure out rotations etc, he has to sit.

Tillman is maybe one of the most challenged offensive players the Cs have had in years but his D, while spotty, is probably going to see more time in the coming days.

But it is the regular season and Joe likes to experiment so maybe Queta sees more chances given his upside.
You're right. It is the regular season. Joe is seeing what we're seeing and more and is choosing these combos for a reason.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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If I were tweaking here - and yesterday felt like they did it for the first time - I'd give Queta less run to see if that mitigates the defensive breakdowns, while keeping Pritchard's minutes constant.

Pritchard does get targeted and beaten but as noted upthread it feels like he can be "hidden" effectively with the right lineups. And if Queta can't figure out rotations etc, he has to sit.

Tillman is maybe one of the most challenged offensive players the Cs have had in years but his D, while spotty, is probably going to see more time in the coming days.

But it is the regular season and Joe likes to experiment so maybe Queta sees more chances given his upside.
Not sure what you mean by "tweaking" but IMO Tillman played yesterday because when MIN didn't play Gobert, they are awfully small and both Randle and Reid seem like decent matchups for Tillman. If Tillman was ever going to play, this was the game to do so. And if you look at BRef's +/- chart - Timberwolves vs Celtics, November 24, 2024 | Basketball-Reference.com - you'll see that except for a short stretch in the 1Q (when he was -3), Horford matched up with Gobert's minutes.

I’ll have a longer post about it later today, but I do not think you can have Pritchard and Queta out there together. Celtics talk about how they hunt the seals, well Queta is a seal, and while Pritchard tries so hard defensively, he’s just too small lol.
I agree that PP/Queta on the floor together probably would be a huge issue if they had to play in a meaningful game, but the Cs are a long way from a meaningful game. IMO, keep giving them minutes together until it looks like they aren't going to improve.
 

Ed Hillel

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Pritchard to me is really a perfect trade candidate. He’s a fun player who can put butts in seats and to many eyes looks much better than he actually is. With the great contract, I think you can get back a really solid rotational player who will give you more when it counts on a consistent basis, though I wonder if salary matching is going to be a problem.

Man…Portland is where Pritchard played college ball, and it would of course be very risky, but if Timelord is still healthy come the trade deadline…
 

Euclis20

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Pritchard to me is really a perfect trade candidate. He’s a fun player who can put butts in seats and to many eyes looks much better than he actually is. With the great contract, I think you can get back a really solid rotational player who will give you more when it counts on a consistent basis, though I wonder if salary matching is going to be a problem.

Man…Portland is where Pritchard played college ball, and it would of course be very risky, but if Timelord is still healthy come the trade deadline…
Please, please no. I'll always love Timelord but he cannot be trusted to stay healthy. To give up Pritchard (who is on an excellent contract and playing a huge role right now) for a 3rd center doesn't make any sense to me.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Pritchard to me is really a perfect trade candidate. He’s a fun player who can put butts in seats and to many eyes looks much better than he actually is. With the great contract, I think you can get back a really solid rotational player who will give you more when it counts on a consistent basis, though I wonder if salary matching is going to be a problem.

Man…Portland is where Pritchard played college ball, and it would of course be very risky, but if Timelord is still healthy come the trade deadline…
Cs can't aggregate contracts and can't take back a penny more in salary so TL for PP is not possible.

You can look at player contracts here: 2024-25 NBA Player Contracts | Basketball-Reference.com. The number of veterans (I'm assuming no team is going to want to trade 1st contract people for PP unless that person is a bust) are pretty limited and few them have one skill as good as PP's 3P shooting. In addition, a lot of them are on 2nd apron teams, who also can't take in one more penny that they give out and cannot aggregate.

Frankly, the easiest path for BOS to improve is to jettison Springer with hopefully a minimal asset and sign Brissy or LW4 to a vet minimum contract. Will also save some dinero.
 

Ed Hillel

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Please, please no. I'll always love Timelord but he cannot be trusted to stay healthy. To give up Pritchard (who is on an excellent contract and playing a huge role right now) for a 3rd center doesn't make any sense to me.
Pritchard is not a very valuable playoff performer and is often unplayable, so it depends what you are looking for in a player. I understand the risk with Timelord, but I generally support trading Pritchard for someone who brings significantly more playoff value (ie size and defense).
Cs can't aggregate contracts…
Well, shit, that puts a hamper on things. Not like keeping PP is a terrible option, but I was hoping they could upgrade the playoff roster based off PP’s perceived value.
 

Euclis20

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Pritchard is not a very valuable playoff performer and is often unplayable, so it depends what you are looking for in a player. I understand the risk with Timelord, but I generally support trading Pritchard for someone who brings significantly more playoff value (ie size and defense).

Well, shit, that puts a hamper on things. Not like keeping PP is a terrible option, but I was hoping they could upgrade the playoff roster based off PP’s perceived value.
He was a pretty valuable playoff performer against Cleveland and Indy - 9 ppg in 20 mpg on .731 TS over those 9 games. He went ice cold against Dallas and lost his spot in the rotation by the end, but he was never really played off the court, even when Luka was hunting him. I see more value in him especially if Jrue is slowing down (I think he'll be just fine, but I see the same things other people are seeing with Holiday). More so than a 3rd center, especially one who just can't stay on the court. I'd love for Rob to come back when his contract expires on a minimum and play the Queta role, but we're a couple years away from that.

As noted above, I guess it's moot.
 

benhogan

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Pritchard is not a very valuable playoff performer and is often unplayable, so it depends what you are looking for in a player. I understand the risk with Timelord, but I generally support trading Pritchard for someone who brings significantly more playoff value (ie size and defense).

Well, shit, that puts a hamper on things. Not like keeping PP is a terrible option, but I was hoping they could upgrade the playoff roster based off PP’s perceived value.
Pritchard is taking a step up this season in role/production. His 3pt volume has jumped without a decrease in efficiency. A 23% increase in minutes + 51% increase in ppg + an eFG% of 63.1% are all career highs. The guy is rarely injured, is much stronger, and doesn't get bullied by other ball handlers.

Both PP and Hauser contracts are extremely valuable; you don't want to move them for backup BIGs, especially an oft-injured one like TimeLord.

There will be some movement this summer, but expect it will be Tax related, with Jrue or KP offered at a discount (to sop up the $$$)

Jaylin Williams is a bench BIG I'd kick around this summer
BUT highly doubt OKC will trade him to Boston.
 

Cornboy14

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 26, 2001
1,024
If this 17 games of Pritchard is real, he can absolutely play in the playoffs. A guard with a TS% of 66% really can't be played off the floor defensively.
 

PRabbit

New Member
Apr 3, 2022
145
Out of the rotation Jrue is probably the one to get traded, unfortunately. Al might hang them up so trading Zinger is a no-go IMO and PP is too valuable for a tax-edging roster even if he regresses some.