General Celtics thread: 24-25 edition

[lars10]

10000%.

As it was all happening, it was incredibly annoying since it seemed like it was a complete act...but he definitely took a shoulder to the jaw. Completely legal foul but definitely a hard one

His mouth was bleeding so definitely did take a shot to the jaw

Yeah.. as I said in my post he definitely got hit.. which was intended to mean that there was blood and he took contact.. I just thought he was trying to milk it a bit to get a flagrant 1 or 2 due to the time of the game. I could be wrong of course, but to me it looked like he was acting almost as if he got knocked out.. a few minutes before he went to the ground and stayed down for a while after another foul that looked fairly normal. Maybe all he was trying to do was gather himself to make sure he hit the free throws.

 

[lars10]

That's how I felt too. It's not like Mitchell went hog wild. It took him an awful lot of shots to get those points, some of them very hard shots. Mitchell burns most people. That's why he's awesome.

That said, Queta is clearly a big dropoff from Al (who's already a bit of a dropoff from last year Al), and obviously KP. FWIW, I think that Queta's numbers would look a little better if he were sharing the floor with better defenders more often too. That's true for everyone, of course.

and it wasn't like Mitchell was only beating Queta.. he burned a number of Celts defenders last night.. the guy is a solid scorer as you more or less said.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Yeah.. as I said in my post he definitely got hit.. which was intended to mean that there was blood and he took contact.. I just thought he was trying to milk it a bit to get a flagrant 1 or 2 due to the time of the game. I could be wrong of course, but to me it looked like he was acting almost as if he got knocked out.. a few minutes before he went to the ground and stayed down for a while after another foul that looked fairly normal. Maybe all he was trying to do was gather himself to make sure he hit the free throws.

Mitchell was aware of the game situation and was most definitely trying to get the officials to take a look at the monitor and maybe get the Flagrant. I get why people are annoying at moves like this during the course of a game but in that situation I sure as hell hope a Celtics player is doing what they can to win the game in the final seconds. He did nothing wrong here except for some bad acting with that rolly thing….that needs some work for sure

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

The last 6-7 minutes of the 3rd quarter felt like a layup line. Looking at the game log:


That's like 8 bunnies in a half a quarter

If anyone cares, here are the buckets (I think all of the links are correct but did not double-check). It would be interesting to compare some of these plays to what happened in the playoffs, especially IIRC people were screaming that Al was getting toasted on a regular basis.

I'm not sure why teams are doing better at exploiting the Cs' scheme this year compared to last - whether it's that teams are scheming better, there needs to be more effort on the defensive end, or having KP as the back line roamer will make things much better - but it doesn't like to me f

6:20 3 foot layup - Niang. Mitchell/Mobley PnR; Mobley beats Queta baseline and dishes to Niang when JB helps.
5:43 driving layup - Jerome. Jerome with a nifty spin move on Holiday.
5:14 dunk - Porter Jr. Garland/Porter PnR; Queta steps up to Garland; Porter rolls by Holiday; Tatum has to decide whether to give up the layup/dunk or a lob to Mobley in the dunker's spot.
4:32 dunk and one - Mobley. In transition, Mobley gets matched up on Holiday, who gives up the dunk (relatively uncontested).
4:14 unsure of length on this one - Porter Jr. Layup. Leak out by Porter Jr.
3:27 dunk - Mobley tip. This one actually featured a good contest by Mitchell on a 3P; this is the play where Mobley pushed off Tatum to get the rebound, and the drove and probably traveled (no call), missed the initial put-back but dunked the follow.
2:53 6' shot - Mobley. This is an interesting play. PP is matched up on Mobley and Mobley overpowers him. I couldn't tell how it started from the clip so went back to watch the full play. There was no switch and it was after a made basket so not a cross-match in transition. Not sure why PP was matched up on Mobley. The prior play, he was guarding Niang but on this play, JT went to Niang.
2:25 1' shot - Niang. Niang beats PP backdoor.
1:51 16' shot - Mitchell. Mitchell hits shot over Queta. I thought Queta played decent defense here.
1:19 dunk - Allen. This is the same play on which Porter got a dunk earlier except White was on Garland, not Holiday. This time JT steps up to contest the layup/dunk and Porter lays it off to Allen.
:47 layup - Mitchell. Mitchell beats Queta after a switch.
:12 layup - Allen. Mitchell/Porter PnR puts Queta in the action; Queta is playing drop coverage. Recovers to contest Porter's 3P; Porter drives; JT steps up to stop him; Queta recovers to guard Allen; Allen beats him with a reverse spin for a layup. At the very least, Queta was very active on this play.

 

[lars10]

If anyone cares, here are the buckets (I think all of the links are correct but did not double-check). It would be interesting to compare some of these plays to what happened in the playoffs, especially IIRC people were screaming that Al was getting toasted on a regular basis.

I'm not sure why teams are doing better at exploiting the Cs' scheme this year compared to last - whether it's that teams are scheming better, there needs to be more effort on the defensive end, or having KP as the back line roamer will make things much better - but it doesn't like to me f

6:20 3 foot layup - Niang. Mitchell/Mobley PnR; Mobley beats Queta baseline and dishes to Niang when JB helps.
5:43 driving layup - Jerome. Jerome with a nifty spin move on Holiday.
5:14 dunk - Porter Jr. Garland/Porter PnR; Queta steps up to Garland; Porter rolls by Holiday; Tatum has to decide whether to give up the layup/dunk or a lob to Mobley in the dunker's spot.
4:32 dunk and one - Mobley. In transition, Mobley gets matched up on Holiday, who gives up the dunk (relatively uncontested).
4:14 unsure of length on this one - Porter Jr. Layup. Leak out by Porter Jr.
3:27 dunk - Mobley tip. This one actually featured a good contest by Mitchell on a 3P; this is the play where Mobley pushed off Tatum to get the rebound, and the drove and probably traveled (no call), missed the initial put-back but dunked the follow.
2:53 6' shot - Mobley. This is an interesting play. PP is matched up on Mobley and Mobley overpowers him. I couldn't tell how it started from the clip so went back to watch the full play. There was no switch and it was after a made basket so not a cross-match in transition. Not sure why PP was matched up on Mobley. The prior play, he was guarding Niang but on this play, JT went to Niang.
2:25 1' shot - Niang. Niang beats PP backdoor.
1:51 16' shot - Mitchell. Mitchell hits shot over Queta. I thought Queta played decent defense here.
1:19 dunk - Allen. This is the same play on which Porter got a dunk earlier except White was on Garland, not Holiday. This time JT steps up to contest the layup/dunk and Porter lays it off to Allen.
:47 layup - Mitchell. Mitchell beats Queta after a switch.
:12 layup - Allen. Mitchell/Porter PnR puts Queta in the action; Queta is playing drop coverage. Recovers to contest Porter's 3P; Porter drives; JT steps up to stop him; Queta recovers to guard Allen; Allen beats him with a reverse spin for a layup. At the very least, Queta was very active on this play.

I think the defensive intensity just ramps up in the playoffs (obviously) and even a big midseason game doesn't get the same energy. Also.. as you said.. KP obviously make a huge difference allowing players to cheat more on defense and he covers it up. Also feels like Holiday has lost a step or something early in the season. The C's still do have times when they can turn it on and completely shut down teams... a lot of it also depends on them hitting their shots, not allowing the other team to get out on the break and allowing them to also set up on D, which makes a huge difference. A lot of the run by Cleveland was the C's missing threes leading to fast breaks or the D getting back late.

 

[TripleOT]

Does anyone remember the regular season games with the Cavs last season, when they put KP into pick/roll action constantly, with a ton of success? When a team has defenders like the Jays and Jrue and DWhite (one of the best defensive backcourts in league history), the center is the most likely defender to attack.

Cleveland’s two main initiators went 16-50, generating only 43 points on those 50 shots, but did combine for 10 assists. Boston’s bench got destroyed last night, even though the Cavs were without Levert. Wade, and Okoro .

I don’t think the Cavs can beat the Celtics with Garland as PG. He’s their most exploitable defender, and seems to always get his drives stymied in crunch time. Hopefully, Atkinson doesn’t move Mitchell to PG against the Celtics, with two wings and their two solid bigs. Or even better, Mitchell, three wings, and a big.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

delete

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

I think the defensive intensity just ramps up in the playoffs (obviously) and even a big midseason game doesn't get the same energy. Also.. as you said.. KP obviously make a huge difference allowing players to cheat more on defense and he covers it up. Also feels like Holiday has lost a step or something early in the season. The C's still do have times when they can turn it on and completely shut down teams... a lot of it also depends on them hitting their shots, not allowing the other team to get out on the break and allowing them to also set up on D, which makes a huge difference. A lot of the run by Cleveland was the C's missing threes leading to fast breaks or the D getting back late.

Agreed defensive intensity increases in the post-season but BOS was not this bad in the paint during the regular season last year. Not sure why. Comparing games from last season to this season would be interesting but awfully time consuming.

Also, agree that Jrue isn't playing at full speed this season (except maybe the NYK game). Not sure why. He only played 26 minutes last night. Hopefully it's not injury-related.

Does anyone remember the regular season games with the Cavs last season, when they put KP into pick/roll action constantly, with a ton of success? When a team has defenders like the Jays and Jrue and DWhite (one of the best defensive backcourts in league history), the center is the most likely defender to attack.

Cleveland’s two main initiators went 16-50, generating only 43 points on those 50 shots, but did combine for 10 assists. Boston’s bench got destroyed last night, even though the Cavs were without Levert. Wade, and Okoro .

I don’t think the Cavs can beat the Celtics with Garland as PG. He’s their most exploitable defender, and seems to always get his drives stymied in crunch time. Hopefully, Atkinson doesn’t move Mitchell to PG against the Celtics, with two wings and their two solid bigs. Or even better, Mitchell, three wings, and a big.

Everyone is going to try to put KP into action but the way BOS schemes, it generally requires two PnRs to do that and by that time, the shot clock is winding down. Still KP makes BOS's offense so efficient that success on the other end by the opposing team pales in comparison to what BOS can do on their offensive end with KP. Can't wait until he comes back and knocking on wood that he has a fully healthy playoffs.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

If anyone cares, here are the buckets (I think all of the links are correct but did not double-check). It would be interesting to compare some of these plays to what happened in the playoffs, especially IIRC people were screaming that Al was getting toasted on a regular basis.

I'm not sure why teams are doing better at exploiting the Cs' scheme this year compared to last - whether it's that teams are scheming better, there needs to be more effort on the defensive end, or having KP as the back line roamer will make things much better - but it doesn't like to me f

6:20 3 foot layup - Niang. Mitchell/Mobley PnR; Mobley beats Queta baseline and dishes to Niang when JB helps.
5:43 driving layup - Jerome. Jerome with a nifty spin move on Holiday.
5:14 dunk - Porter Jr. Garland/Porter PnR; Queta steps up to Garland; Porter rolls by Holiday; Tatum has to decide whether to give up the layup/dunk or a lob to Mobley in the dunker's spot.
4:32 dunk and one - Mobley. In transition, Mobley gets matched up on Holiday, who gives up the dunk (relatively uncontested).
4:14 unsure of length on this one - Porter Jr. Layup. Leak out by Porter Jr.
3:27 dunk - Mobley tip. This one actually featured a good contest by Mitchell on a 3P; this is the play where Mobley pushed off Tatum to get the rebound, and the drove and probably traveled (no call), missed the initial put-back but dunked the follow.
2:53 6' shot - Mobley. This is an interesting play. PP is matched up on Mobley and Mobley overpowers him. I couldn't tell how it started from the clip so went back to watch the full play. There was no switch and it was after a made basket so not a cross-match in transition. Not sure why PP was matched up on Mobley. The prior play, he was guarding Niang but on this play, JT went to Niang.
2:25 1' shot - Niang. Niang beats PP backdoor.
1:51 16' shot - Mitchell. Mitchell hits shot over Queta. I thought Queta played decent defense here.
1:19 dunk - Allen. This is the same play on which Porter got a dunk earlier except White was on Garland, not Holiday. This time JT steps up to contest the layup/dunk and Porter lays it off to Allen.
:47 layup - Mitchell. Mitchell beats Queta after a switch.
:12 layup - Allen. Mitchell/Porter PnR puts Queta in the action; Queta is playing drop coverage. Recovers to contest Porter's 3P; Porter drives; JT steps up to stop him; Queta recovers to guard Allen; Allen beats him with a reverse spin for a layup. At the very least, Queta was very active on this play.

Watching live it was clear that Queta is giving effort and had greatly improved his footwork from completely unplayable if 1-2 years ago to somewhat playable. Still, what came to mind to me was one of my old coaches favorite sayings, “Don’t mistake activity for achievement.”

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Watching live it was clear that Queta is giving effort and had greatly improved his footwork from completely unplayable if 1-2 years ago to somewhat playable. Still, what came to mind to me was one of my old coaches favorite sayings, “Don’t mistake activity for achievement.”

I think CJM recognizes that Queta has good feet and this is the front end of his learning curve. Because if Queta can develop into a guy who can credibly guard most guys on the perimeter, that will really help their roster construction in 27-28.

 

[Euclis20]

Watching live it was clear that Queta is giving effort and had greatly improved his footwork from completely unplayable if 1-2 years ago to somewhat playable. Still, what came to mind to me was one of my old coaches favorite sayings, “Don’t mistake activity for achievement.”

I like that quote. Aaron Nesmith on the Celtics should've listened to that one, guy was as active and unpredictable as a bouncy ball on pavement.

Also, agree that Jrue isn't playing at full speed this season (except maybe the NYK game). Not sure why. He only played 26 minutes last night. Hopefully it's not injury-related.

Until we hear otherwise I'm assuming this is a combination of Pritchard (and White) leveling up and Boston trying to keep Jrue fresh. His 3P shooting is down this year but his 2P% is way up, as his his FT rate. I haven't seen much in his play worth being concerned about, he would turn his defensive intensity on and off last season as the situation warranted.

 

[Jimbodandy]

I like that quote. Aaron Nesmith on the Celtics should've listened to that one, guy was as active and unpredictable as a bouncy ball on pavement.



Until we hear otherwise I'm assuming this is a combination of Pritchard (and White) leveling up and Boston trying to keep Jrue fresh. His 3P shooting is down this year but his 2P% is way up, as his his FT rate. I haven't seen much in his play worth being concerned about, he would turn his defensive intensity on and off last season as the situation warranted.

It's only an eyeball test, but his defense seems to have slipped a little, like Al's has. I'm not sure that it's not two old guys saving a gear for when needed later though.

 

[bakahump]

3d chess? For when Holliday is odd man out in the Salary Cap To Be Traded Lottery.

 

[Silverdude2167]

Also, agree that Jrue isn't playing at full speed this season (except maybe the NYK game). Not sure why. He only played 26 minutes last night. Hopefully it's not injury-related.

I'm optimisticly going with intentional load management and they are 12-3 so he isn't going to put load on his legs atm.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

This is my favorite moment from the season so far:



View: https://www.twitter.com/celtics/status/1859345812314026178?s=19

 

[InstaFace]

3d chess? For when Holliday is odd man out in the Salary Cap To Be Traded Lottery.

You would think, if so, that he would be keeping his D in high gear.

I think Occam's Razor leads us to "the first month of the season had games every other day for a month straight and the guys are tired". But there's no doubt that Jrue down a bit from last year in defensive intensity.

 

[mostman]

This is my favorite moment from the season so far:

View attachment 92083

View: https://www.twitter.com/celtics/status/1859345812314026178?s=19

This is hilarious. These guys love each other.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

It's only an eyeball test, but his defense seems to have slipped a little, like Al's has. I'm not sure that it's not two old guys saving a gear for when needed later though.

Holiday quietly coasted much of last years regular season too. I’m not concerned about him at all.

 

[Red Averages]

Holiday quietly coasted much of last years regular season too. I’m not concerned about him at all.

The vets know how to conserve their bodies while still getting a top seed. Ideally we start to see more glimpses of playoff intensity as we get into the spring and have meaningful games for seeding.

As for Queta, I can’t believe people think he has so much potential. He seems like a prime candidate to be pick and rolled every single possession in a meaningful game. If it’s obvious to us it’s even more obvious to someone paid to watch film and strategize. I haven’t seen all the games, did Tilman regress a ton or why hasn’t he played much?

 

[joe dokes]

The vets know how to conserve their bodies while still getting a top seed. Ideally we start to see more glimpses of playoff intensity as we get into the spring and have meaningful games for seeding.

As for Queta, I can’t believe people think he has so much potential. He seems like a prime candidate to be pick and rolled every single possession in a meaningful game. If it’s obvious to us it’s even more obvious to someone paid to watch film and strategize. I haven’t seen all the games, did Tilman regress a ton or why hasn’t he played much?

I dont know if Tillman's regressed; IMO, he's just stagnant. To me, he never looked like he was going to be a consistent contributor. I thought last year was injury or unfamiliarity. But now, he not only seems stuck in this spot, he has shown no signs of progress. Queta, at least, occasionally shows flashes of good things, even if the overall package is short of "good." And he looks like there's room for at least some improvement.
Tillman looks, slow, unsure, unathletic. I look at him and I am having trouble seeing how he gets better results when his inputs seem so poor. Maybe it's injuries or wear and tear. But he just doesn't seem to have it. He plays like he's 35, not 25.

 

[kfoss99]

He plays like he's 35, not 25.

What, Tillman is only 25!?

He and Jabari Parker's share the same aging gene.

 

[lovegtm]

Holiday quietly coasted much of last years regular season too. I’m not concerned about him at all.

Yup, it's funny that people forgot this already.

Jrue absolutely plays the regular season at 85% intensity, and he's absolutely right to do so. I don't think he always did this, but he seems to really be trying to preserve his body as he ages.

 

[Van Everyman]

I think it’s a bit of recency bias as well. Jrue was SO fucking dominant in the playoffs defensively and brought such a consistent intensity that it looks a little odd when he doesn’t.

I will say: despite him supposedly being in a bit of a slump going in to the Cavs game, I thought his 3-point shot looked good and has for a bit.

 

[slamminsammya]

The vets know how to conserve their bodies while still getting a top seed. Ideally we start to see more glimpses of playoff intensity as we get into the spring and have meaningful games for seeding.

As for Queta, I can’t believe people think he has so much potential. He seems like a prime candidate to be pick and rolled every single possession in a meaningful game. If it’s obvious to us it’s even more obvious to someone paid to watch film and strategize. I haven’t seen all the games, did Tilman regress a ton or why hasn’t he played much?

Queta has stretches where he’s everywhere and making lots of good things happen. I think that’s where the potential is found. Then he has stretches where he looks like he has zero idea what to do and no skill.

 

[snowmanny]

Yes, but the worrisome thing about last night was that he looked totally lost because he was playing against a team that knew exactly what they were doing. It wasn’t just an off night; he was exploited.

 

[Red Averages]

Yes, but the worrisome thing about last night was that he looked totally lost because he was playing against a team that knew exactly what they were doing. It wasn’t just an off night; he was exploited.

He should be forced to watch the Al Horford guarding video (I want to say with 4 minutes left in the game where he took on 3 offensive players with perfect spacing and jab steps, but that’s off my memory from last night) on repeat for 2 hours every day and then be forced to repeat those motions with tapped feet postings on the ground until he can do it blindfolded. My god what an exhibition by Al. What a gift to be a young player and have a possible mentor like that show you the way. If anyone can find the video I’ll owe you 50 Schrutte Bucks.

 

[snowmanny]

Al was incredible last night.

 

[BigSoxFan]

Al was incredible last night.

I thought he was merely average

 

[Van Everyman]

I thought he was merely average

You must be from Framingham.

 

[tims4wins]

View: https://twitter.com/iinangelo/status/1859078541196788084/mediaviewer

 

[InstaFace]

Holiday quietly coasted much of last years regular season too. I’m not concerned about him at all.

Seems like most of our guards and wings were showing better defensively at the start of last year / first half of last season than they did in the back half, or at the start of this season.



(Horford has largely been steady, and Porzingis has had a meteoric climb upward, in defensive rating by DARKO over the last year, btw.)

 

[benhogan]

View: https://twitter.com/iinangelo/status/1859078541196788084/mediaviewer

Love it...nothing like selling out

 

[Red Averages]

Love it...nothing like selling out

You wanted that bargain contract, let the man shill his swill!!!

 

[Jimbodandy]

Queta has stretches where he’s everywhere and making lots of good things happen. I think that’s where the potential is found. Then he has stretches where he looks like he has zero idea what to do and no skill.

Great way of putting it.

Tillman brings more consistency in awareness and BBIQ, some finishing ability, and the occasional 3pt shot, so I see the appeal. But his lack of length, spring, agility, and vertical spacing hurts, and he doesn't bring enough offensively to offset it.

Queta gives you rim protection and lob city and has improved his ability and awareness enough to be worth investing minutes in. If his ceiling is higher, that would be great. Maybe it isn't, but why not find out. We know what Tillman and Kornet are.

 

[benhogan]

Great way of putting it.

Tillman brings more consistency in awareness and BBIQ, some finishing ability, and the occasional 3pt shot, so I see the appeal. But his lack of length, spring, agility, and vertical spacing hurts, and he doesn't bring enough offensively to offset it.

Queta gives you rim protection and lob city and has improved his ability and awareness enough to be worth investing minutes in. If his ceiling is higher, that would be great. Maybe it isn't, but why not find out. We know what Tillman and Kornet are.

Agree on Queta. He has glimpses and getting him minutes is a good way to unearth more of that upside as the season progresses. There is no downside to playing him ~20 mpg when either Al or KP are out.

As far as X, Tillman has been miscast as a 4. He's strictly a Beef5. You want him as that 5th offensive option, just running around, screening for the 4 other offensive engines. You definitely don't want him facing the hoop, on the perimeter, waiting for swing-swing to end up in his hands for a slightly open 3

 

[joe dokes]

Queta has stretches where he’s everywhere and making lots of good things happen. I think that’s where the potential is found. Then he has stretches where he looks like he has zero idea what to do and no skill.

Exactly.

Tillman brings more consistency in awareness and BBIQ, some finishing ability, and the occasional 3pt shot, so I see the appeal. But his lack of length, spring, agility, and vertical spacing hurts, and he doesn't bring enough offensively to offset it.

In theory, Tillman brings that stuff. I have seen none of it in his time here. He's a 25% career 3pt shooter. He may make fewer bad plays, but to my eyes it's because he's not involved in the action. At best, he's miscast at both ends of the floor on this team this year. He's got a 4yr deal, so maybe it's not about this year. [/Brad's benefit of the doubt]

 

[benhogan]

He's got a 4yr deal, so maybe it's not about this year. [/Brad's benefit of the doubt]

Small nitpick but Tillman was signed to two-years at the minimum (2yrs/$4.8M) this past Summer.

Brad still has big brains. You couldn't get a better contract for a veteran, with his playoff experience & past defensive metrics at his age. There is zero reason to throw the towel in on X. He was injured last year, had surgery this summer, and is willing to go to Maine to work on things.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/boston-celtics/yearly

 

[InstaFace]

Tillman is Discount Grant Williams. Can't bomb 3s at the same volume, but can defend centers in very much the same way (and is more of a team-first guy). When Grant took the Dallas S&T deal, I'm sure Brad was thinking "$13M? Whatever, I can replace you with a minimum guy", and then he hunted around until he found his minimum guy he could get with a second and a bag of balls. And he's been 80% right, but the difference between X and Grant has proven a bit meaningful for X's fit on the team right now.

 

[joe dokes]

Small nitpick but Tillman was signed to two-years at the minimum (2yrs/$4.8M) this past Summer.

My bad. Not sure how I got 4. (Though I remain unconvinced of his usefulness. He's been generally bad at making 2s, 3s or FTs in the NBA; and now he might be hobbled, too.).

 

[Jimbodandy]

Small nitpick but Tillman was signed to two-years at the minimum (2yrs/$4.8M) this past Summer.

Brad still has big brains. You couldn't get a better contract for a veteran, with his playoff experience & past defensive metrics at his age. There is zero reason to throw the towel in on X. He was injured last year, had surgery this summer, and is willing to go to Maine to work on things.

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/boston-celtics/yearly

Exactly. I don't think that anyone's tagging Tillman or Queta as big pieces of the puzzle. With a healthy KP and the governors turned off Al and KP, there shouldn't be much reason to see either for extended minutes if at all (i.e., playoffs). This is about who eats minutes, like middle reliever/swing guys in baseball eat innings. Someone has to do it. May as well work out over the 82 the hierarchy of "emergency bigs" and their use cases. And to pull it off with veteran minimums and guys basically available for free is good use of assets.

 

[benhogan]

My bad. Not sure how I got 4. (Though I remain unconvinced of his usefulness. He's been generally bad at making 2s, 3s or FTs in the NBA; and now he might be hobbled, too.).

Brad views Tillman as a FREE 2yr option*, just as he does with every minimum contract (Kornet, Queta, etc)
Their barbell strategy for roster mgmt is brilliant (wish Brad would moonlight as the Sox GM for half the season)

*since it's the cheapest price possible for a roster spot

Exactly. I don't think that anyone's tagging Tillman or Queta as big pieces of the puzzle. With a healthy KP and the governors turned off Al and KP, there shouldn't be much reason to see either for extended minutes if at all (i.e., playoffs). This is about who eats minutes, like middle reliever/swing guys in baseball eat innings. Someone has to do it. May as well work out over the 82 the hierarchy of "emergency bigs" and their use cases. And to pull it off with veteran minimums and guys basically available for free is good use of assets.

hallelujah

 

[InstaFace]

Brad views Tillman as a FREE 2yr option*, just as he does with every minimum contract (Kornet, Queta, etc)
Their barbell strategy for roster mgmt is brilliant (wish Brad would moonlight as the Sox GM for half the season)

The trouble with a "stars and scrubs" roster is that in the NBA, it's really really hard to acquire enough stars to bring that strategy to reality. The Celtics' path to doing so is almost impossible to replicate, and even in our case depended on a bit of luck (the first Smart trade falling through, then Jrue unexpectedly becoming available at a price we could somehow pay), to say nothing of the odds of developing two draft picks in back to back years into all-NBA players, or the odds of having an end-of-career HOFer willing to play for a third of his on-court value.

Anyone else attempting this will end up with one or more near-black-holes that they are obligated to play in the playoffs for big minutes, and will probably get hunted to extinction as a result. Basically I'm not sure any other team should be drawing lessons from how Brad has built this roster. Maybe he's been the real unicorn all along.

 

[benhogan]

The trouble with a "stars and scrubs" roster is that in the NBA, it's really really hard to acquire enough stars to bring that strategy to reality. The Celtics' path to doing so is almost impossible to replicate, and even in our case depended on a bit of luck (the first Smart trade falling through, then Jrue unexpectedly becoming available at a price we could somehow pay), to say nothing of the odds of developing two draft picks in back to back years into all-NBA players, or the odds of having an end-of-career HOFer willing to play for a third of his market value.

Anyone else attempting this will end up with one or more near-black-holes that they are obligated to play in the playoffs for big minutes, and will probably get hunted to extinction as a result. Basically I'm not sure any other team should be drawing lessons from how Brad has built this roster. Maybe he's been the real unicorn all along.

Brad took over a .500 team, first-round embarrassment to the hands of Kyrie/KD/Harden Nets.

The C's had 2 All-Stars. Neither made All-NBA that year (with the NBA media screaming to split up the JAYs) + a whole lotta nothing. It certainly wasn't Sunshine, Lollipops, & Rainbows.

MPG leaders: JAYs, Smart, Kemba, Fournier, Theis, Tristan Thompson, PP, Teague, TL, Grant, Semi, Romeo, Nesmith, Kornet, Parker.

Brad ended up keeping the 3 best players from that list (Yes, PP is better than Marcus Smart or TL now).

In 2 years, he turned the rest of that roster into: Horford, White, Porzingis, Holiday, Hauser + a bunch of minimums.

He turned scrubs into rotational players: Horford (seen as salary/bad contract when acquired), Hauser UFA, PP, KornXQ
He turned overlooked players into cusp All-Stars: KP and White
He never did an all-the-picks move to get talent.
He felt no pressure to extend or match Grant Williams in RFA.
Every contract on this team is good value, which means those players can easily be traded in the off-season.

I wouldn't chalk Jrue up to luck. He knew only a few teams could make Dame happen & he was prepared to deal. IMO this team still raises Banner 18 with/without Jrue (but not as dominant)

There is a shitload you can learn from Brad/Zarens approach to roster building & the type of player they go after (extend)

 

[lovegtm]

Brad took over a .500 team, first-round embarrassment to the hands of Kyrie/KD/Harden Nets.

The C's had 2 All-Stars. Neither made All-NBA that year (with the NBA media screaming to split up the JAYs) + a whole lotta nothing. It certainly wasn't Sunshine, Lollipops, & Rainbows.

MPG leaders: JAYs, Smart, Kemba, Fournier, Theis, Tristan Thompson, PP, Teague, TL, Grant, Semi, Romeo, Nesmith, Kornet, Parker.

Brad ended up keeping the 3 best players from that list (Yes, PP is better than Marcus Smart or TL now).

In 2 years, he turned the rest of that roster into: Horford, White, Porzingis, Holiday, Hauser + a bunch of minimums.

He turned scrubs into rotational players: Horford (seen as salary/bad contract when acquired), Hauser UFA, PP, KornXQ
He turned overlooked players into cusp All-Stars: KP and White
He never did an all-the-picks move to get talent.
He felt no pressure to extend or match Grant Williams in RFA.
Every contract on this team is good value, which means those players can easily be traded in the off-season.

I wouldn't chalk Jrue up to luck. He knew only a few teams could make Dame happen & he was prepared to deal. IMO this team still raises Banner 18 with/without Jrue (but not as dominant)

There is a shitload you can learn from Brad/Zarens approach to roster building & the type of player they go after (extend)

You think they raise banner 18 without Jrue, with KP hurt?

Would've been really, really tough.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Yup, it's funny that people forgot this already.

Jrue absolutely plays the regular season at 85% intensity, and he's absolutely right to do so. I don't think he always did this, but he seems to really be trying to preserve his body as he ages.

This - last year I knew Jrue had another gear. This year, it seems like he has two more gears.

Though I finally got to watch the first half and he seemed as active as ever in the 1H.

He should be forced to watch the Al Horford guarding video (I want to say with 4 minutes left in the game where he took on 3 offensive players with perfect spacing and jab steps, but that’s off my memory from last night) on repeat for 2 hours every day and then be forced to repeat those motions with tapped feet postings on the ground until he can do it blindfolded. My god what an exhibition by Al. What a gift to be a young player and have a possible mentor like that show you the way. If anyone can find the video I’ll owe you 50 Schrutte Bucks.

Is this the same Al Horford that a lot of people were screaming about after the first two games of the Cavs series last year?

The number of bigs who can defends guards like Mitchell and Garland consistently on the perimeter you can probably count on one hand minus a couple of fingers. Luke can't do it; Tillman can't do it; neither can KP, Queta, or Al (most of the time). Yet BOS's scheme still requires this.

So long as BOS's bigs can run guys off the 3P line and try to funnel them into the occasional difficult 2P, BOS figures it's going to make it up on the other end. It's the math after all.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

*since it's the cheapest price possible for a roster spot

Small nitpick but cheapest option would have been signing a two-way player but no veteran option would have been cheaper.

 

[benhogan]

Small nitpick but cheapest option would have been signing a two-way player but no veteran option would have been cheaper.

Yea, that is in the equation.

Brad already exploited that option. No 15th man (three 2-way G-League players available to fill that break in case of an emergency role).

NBA rules - 14 roster spots. The minimum is the strike price. KornXQ are all FREE options with varying length

 

[benhogan]

You think they raise banner 18 without Jrue, with KP hurt?

Would've been really, really tough.

If it wasn't Jrue, it would have been someone else (Brogdon and picks were being moved)

16-3 would not have happened, but they would have still won it IMO.

BUT I'm thrilled they had Jrue, there was zero stress.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

NBA rules - 14 roster spots. The minimum is the strike price.

Sorry wasn’t clear. BOS could have signed someone wit 0 years’ experience to a minimum contract of just over $1.1M. https://www.si.com/nba/what-minimum-nba-salary-2024-25

Instead they signed X, whose contract counts just over $2M. While $900K doesn’t seem a lot, when multiplied by 7.5, which is tax multiplier next year IIRC, that gets to be real $

 

[benhogan]

Sorry wasn’t clear. BOS could have signed someone wit 0 years’ experience to a minimum contract of just over $1.1M. https://www.si.com/nba/what-minimum-nba-salary-2024-25

Instead they signed X, whose contract counts just over $2M. While $900K doesn’t seem a lot, when multiplied by 7.5, which is tax multiplier next year IIRC, that gets to be real $

Thats fair.

NBA vets with 4-5 years of NBA experience (veteran minimums) aren't really pari passu with zero experience minimum players. I'd never advocate for more than 1-2 rookies on a contender (unless Larry Bird is walking through that door).

ALSO are people still expecting the Celtics to spend $500M (7.5X) next year? I can't imagine that's happening.