I wonder if it's an experimentation thing early? Queta is the new toy - take him out for a test drive?
General Celtics thread: 24-25 edition
- Thread starter RorschachsMask
- Start date
A marginal NBA player getting a 15-20 game run of real minutes with a really good team that shows him *exactly* what he needs to improve at is a pretty good opportunity. Some guys run with it, some never learn.
CJM tginks Queta can be really good ("He doesn't know how good he can be") so he's developing him. Also Luke can only play drop coverage so Queta allows for the 2-Big lineups because he can guard out top while Al takes the non-shooter.
Are we watching the same games? Queta is the best perimeter defending big the Cs have (Al being 39 can do it in spurts but it's clear no one wants to see Al get switched on to guards 20 times a game). Here's an article where CJM praise Queta's defense on Curry: https://hardwoodhoudini.com/boston-celtics-stephen-curry-neemias-queta-joe-mazzulla-golden-state-warriors-118-112-defense-growth-rising
1. There is no solution to Horford retiring. He gets paid $10MM but plays like a $30M player. Al is really the Unicorn.
2. Comparing minimum-level players (KornQX) to an All-Star-level talent (KP) is a bad idea.
3. Everything is predicated on the Celtics budget & tax bill next year. All of us have been kicking around the idea of KP or Jrue being traded. The good thing is whatever trade machine scenario we dream up Brad/Zarren will exceed it, because thats what they do.
As far as Queta, he is still learning at the NBA level, super raw. Some games/situations he is very playable. Other games he looks lost. It's all part of the process with young players. He's far from fully developed and can improve with PT, at least thats what CJM has said, but that could be Coach Speak.
KornXQ are here to sop up regular season minutes at the 5 this year...It's doubtful they have any kind of role in the playoffs unless one of them pops.
This team is so good that the debate about how well the #3-#5 centers are playing is irrelevant. Make playoffs healthy. That's all that matters.
God I hate Tony Brothers games, especially since they've now paired him with two children. I think that most of the calls and non calls were fine, but some that they missed were so glaringly obvious and egregious that they should use some of tonight's game film in ref school.
God I hate Tony Brothers games, especially since they've now paired him with two children. I think that most of the calls and non calls were fine, but some that they missed were so glaringly obvious and egregious that they should use some of tonight's game film in ref school.
Plus Tatum spent a lot of the playoffs last year guarding Mobley, Bam, Turner, & Lively. Center is pretty well covered.
The depth on this team is more than fine. Hauser is the only one that doesn't look right.
We should be cautious about characterizing how much that really happened. In aggregate, Horford played 30 min a game in playoffs, Kornet 8 (he missed/DNPd 6 so the average adjusts for that), and Kristaps (adjusting for games missed) about 9 per game. Tillman also played 70 minutes, though a bunch of that was garbage time. There were certainly Tatum at 5 minutes in there, but it is not a huge amount. Like everyone, he also was switched onto 5s depending on the personnel. So if you're more saying he played bigs some, I agree...but worth noting most of that was not as the 5. Anyway, I don't disagree they have 5 covered defensively, and I note more as input to the ongoing "what's future of Tatum at 5" discussion....
Thoughts on the game:
1. I was expecting the Celtics to get smacked in this one, and I was OK with that. They aren't at the level of last year's regular season team yet, which I attribute to the short offseason and even moreso to KP being out. And they might have been, had they not shot 54% from three. That said, it was good to see them come out fired up for this one, and even better to see the late execution when the game was close. Back in the Ime/Joe year 1 period, I don't think that late execution was a stength of the team, but it very much is now.
2. The officiating seemed very biased in this one, as if the refs were invested in seeing the Cavs get to 16-0. Weird combination of "letting the boys play" but calling ticky tack stuff on the Celtics at times.
3. This was a Tillman game, not a Queta game, so it is unfortunate that Tillman has played himself into a well-deserved seat on the deep bench. That said, Queta seems to have won the job of "Celtics #3 center once KP returns," a job that will get plenty of regular season minutes given KP's fragility and Horford's age. So, I suppose he and the team need the experience.
4. Tatum is making a legit run at the MVP this year. I think he's taken a meaningful step forward as an offensive player this year.
5. Incredible work from the ageless Al Horford in this one - 5 points, 4 rebounds, 2 key blocks in the 4th quarter. Also from White, Brown (whose 7-point, 3-assist 4th was his best offensive quarter of the game), and PP.
1. I was expecting the Celtics to get smacked in this one, and I was OK with that. They aren't at the level of last year's regular season team yet, which I attribute to the short offseason and even moreso to KP being out. And they might have been, had they not shot 54% from three. That said, it was good to see them come out fired up for this one, and even better to see the late execution when the game was close. Back in the Ime/Joe year 1 period, I don't think that late execution was a stength of the team, but it very much is now.
2. The officiating seemed very biased in this one, as if the refs were invested in seeing the Cavs get to 16-0. Weird combination of "letting the boys play" but calling ticky tack stuff on the Celtics at times.
3. This was a Tillman game, not a Queta game, so it is unfortunate that Tillman has played himself into a well-deserved seat on the deep bench. That said, Queta seems to have won the job of "Celtics #3 center once KP returns," a job that will get plenty of regular season minutes given KP's fragility and Horford's age. So, I suppose he and the team need the experience.
4. Tatum is making a legit run at the MVP this year. I think he's taken a meaningful step forward as an offensive player this year.
5. Incredible work from the ageless Al Horford in this one - 5 points, 4 rebounds, 2 key blocks in the 4th quarter. Also from White, Brown (whose 7-point, 3-assist 4th was his best offensive quarter of the game), and PP.
Wait KP played like 24 min a game in the playoffs in the games he played, and was over 30 min a game in the first 3 games of the playoffs before the injury... or are we saying the same thing?
It's a good thing the Celts won it all last year, otherwise I think we'd be panicking about the bench today and questioning whether they'd get exposed in the playoffs. -13 for Sam (21 min), -15 for Queta (16 mins), and -14 for PP (26 min).
I’m betting Al has already told them this is his final season. Mazzulla is strategically seeing what they really have in Queta And will continue to do so all regular season.
PS - Mitchell is fire but Queta did a credible job on him on the perimeter. I was impressed by both his D and Mitchell’s great shooting. Love that kid.
PS - Mitchell is fire but Queta did a credible job on him on the perimeter. I was impressed by both his D and Mitchell’s great shooting. Love that kid.
I watched this game after knowing they’d already won. Despite carrying a 17 point lead into halftime, I didn’t think they looked that great? Great shooting from. 3 covered a lot of things – in particular, Jaylen looked off his game, there were a lot of turnovers and again they were giving up a ton of points in the paint, easy buckets to the likes of Mobley and Allen. All of this needs to be cleaned up going forward.
On the plus side, I agree with @Eddie Jurak that the weakness they used to have during close and late situations has become a strength. Tatum has looked terrific all year, def. is leveling up offensively. Horford had 20 points which is awesome. And Queta’s footworik defending guards is impressive for his size. His ability to defend the perimeter really changes what they can do defensively when he’s on the floor.
All in all, a good win but it still feels to me like they aren’t firing on all cylinders yet even accounting for KP’s absence.
On the plus side, I agree with @Eddie Jurak that the weakness they used to have during close and late situations has become a strength. Tatum has looked terrific all year, def. is leveling up offensively. Horford had 20 points which is awesome. And Queta’s footworik defending guards is impressive for his size. His ability to defend the perimeter really changes what they can do defensively when he’s on the floor.
All in all, a good win but it still feels to me like they aren’t firing on all cylinders yet even accounting for KP’s absence.
Boston's execution in the 4th quarter, especially with the unfavorable whistle, was the most promising part of the game. Allen and Mobley combined for a lone bucket, and it was really Mitchell's heroics that kept Cleveland close. Celtics offense was a nice mix of 3's and drives into the paints while the ball kept moving. I saw Pritchard get called out for his +/-, but he played the first 7:15 of the 4th and the game stayed at 5 points while Pritchard was on the court, during which he had a nice steal and drained a key 3 off a great Tatum pass.
Celtics didn't play a perfect game, but sometimes you gotta tip your hat to the opponent as well. This Cavs team is a serious threat in the East, and they've already beaten the Warriors and the Lakers and Magic and Knicks (all 4 teams with winning records). Both coaches treated it like a big game, with 8 players from each squad getting playing time.
Celtics didn't play a perfect game, but sometimes you gotta tip your hat to the opponent as well. This Cavs team is a serious threat in the East, and they've already beaten the Warriors and the Lakers and Magic and Knicks (all 4 teams with winning records). Both coaches treated it like a big game, with 8 players from each squad getting playing time.
Kornet was on the injury report a couple times a little while ago, I can’t remember for what, and it seems like that was about the time he stopped playing.
So I wonder if he’s just not right physically, and they’re being careful with him, because Queta has been fine.
Watching these regular season games it feels like Joe is prepping for the playoffs. The last few games it’s felt like he’s really trying have Jaylen be the main ball handler and offensive initiator.. I could be wrong, but even with Tatum and White on the floor Brown was consistently getting the ball to start the offense. Would make sense to give him as many reps as possible, especially against very goood teams.
not sure why Kornet and Tillman aren’t getting any play but maybe Joe is also trying to get Queta up to speed by giving him as many reps as he can at the moment to get him familiar with rotations at game speed.
not sure why Kornet and Tillman aren’t getting any play but maybe Joe is also trying to get Queta up to speed by giving him as many reps as he can at the moment to get him familiar with rotations at game speed.
I'm scared of Mitchell more than almost any other player in the NBA. Even when he misses a shot, which seems super rare, I'm like "wow we're lucky that didn't go in". If he's doing his thing and Garland doesn't miss 18 shots the Cavs are formidable.
Like the job Joe Mazzulla is doing in-game (especially with minutes/rotations)
-Not afraid to call timeouts after a couple of bad possessions.
-Expanding minutes with the starters/shortening rotation with multiple days off (no Walsh)
-Handling Horford carefully when there was a game every other night for weeks but more aggressive last night
-Developing (sorry HRB for the verbiage) Queta, not sharing minutes with Luke
-Keeping one of White or Tatum on the floor at all times.
-Being careful with Holiday minutes
Like him paying Derrick White 42 minutes last night.
DW should be playing similar minutes as the JAYs
This team is definitely handling regular season mpg/GP (wear-n-tear) very carefully.
-Not afraid to call timeouts after a couple of bad possessions.
-Expanding minutes with the starters/shortening rotation with multiple days off (no Walsh)
-Handling Horford carefully when there was a game every other night for weeks but more aggressive last night
-Developing (sorry HRB for the verbiage) Queta, not sharing minutes with Luke
-Keeping one of White or Tatum on the floor at all times.
-Being careful with Holiday minutes
Like him paying Derrick White 42 minutes last night.
DW should be playing similar minutes as the JAYs
This team is definitely handling regular season mpg/GP (wear-n-tear) very carefully.
Cavs were missing Strus, Okoro, Wade and LeVert. They're crazy deep this season.
Mitchell's another one of those guys who looks fantastic, but when you look at the numbers at the end of the game, BFD.
35 points on 29 shots, 3 assists. Played as good of a defensive performance that you'll ever get from him last night, high effort, still low impact there.
He's still a pretty efficient volume scorer, I'll give him that.
35 points on 29 shots, 3 assists. Played as good of a defensive performance that you'll ever get from him last night, high effort, still low impact there.
He's still a pretty efficient volume scorer, I'll give him that.
Nitpicking, but Tatum did a poor job against Mitchell the last 2 minutes or so. CLE was going after that matchup and Mitchell got whatever he wanted. Not reading too much into it, but
1:30 blows by Tatum on the switch for a layup
1:04 not sure what the hell Tatum was doing here
:24 Mitchell makes a ridiculous 3 but you gotta expect him to launch one given the time and score
:14 the weird hard foul
1:30 blows by Tatum on the switch for a layup
1:04 not sure what the hell Tatum was doing here
:24 Mitchell makes a ridiculous 3 but you gotta expect him to launch one given the time and score
:14 the weird hard foul
If you hit 50%+ of your 3s, especially at the volume we take them at, generally not much else matters. When our 3-point magic went out in the second half, that's when Cleveland slowly clawed their way back. We're going to need a better strategy in 2 weeks when we go there and play them again.
The thing is, the Celts shot 8-19 from 3 in the 2nd half. That is 42.1%. I don't think an NBA team has ever shot 42.1% for a season. It's a damn good percentage and a good 4%+ better than the Celts season average.
Edit: looks like the Celts made their first 4 attempts in the second half, so then they finished 4-15, and once they stopped hitting that's when the lead dissipated. So, I think you're right. In fact, the entire game seemed to pivot when JT missed that wide open three after having not missed all night to that point.
Last edited:
Do we? Or do we just need to be more effective driving to the hoop? In the playoffs, Tatum couldn’t hit the side of the barn from outside so he was driving to the hoop and often kicking constantly.
It felt to me that the problem with last night was that Jaylen wasn’t finishing. Maybe Tony Brothers was part of the problem there but if he isn’t getting his going inside, the team is more dependent on its shooting.
Jaylen is at 7.6 potential assists per game, up from his previous career high of 6.8, last season.
Tatum is now at 12.3 per game, up from his previous career high of 8.9, also leads the league in total secondary assists.
Tatum is now at 12.3 per game, up from his previous career high of 8.9, also leads the league in total secondary assists.
My impression was that the game turned when Queta went in, and they started exploiting him defensively. On offense, Queta wasn't taken seriously on the perimeter and their bigs helped deter the drives-kicks better than when Al was in there.
My assessment of the major shortcoming last night was defensive, not offensive. When we had our starting guards out there, our motion looked crisp and decisions were generally correct. Brown had some stupid "dribble into traffic and turn it over" plays, as he does, and Tatum threw one or two away, but we didn't have a deluge of turnover issues the way we did vs Atlanta (there's no Dyson Daniels on the Cavs, thankfully). Our shot selection looked pretty good, though we did make a bunch of heavily contested shots.
But on defense, every bit of our help on drives by their guards appeared to be late. We ended up on the short end of 2v1s on the perimeter a lot, as we got lost in some switches and ended up giving up wide open Merrill 3s, which I can assure everyone was not the game plan. Mitchell has a near-unique ability to stop a drive, hesitate, or blow by people, depending on positioning, that is deadly - but we didn't appear to be strategizing to take anything in particular away (i.e. once he got past the 3 point line, which we mostly chased him off of, we seemed unable to prevent a layup). Whatever part of our strategy was intended to neutralize Allen and Mobley largely worked - we got a ton of contested rebounds, too, which Tony Dobbins highlighted as the main positive in the first half. But if we're working hard to get a few buckets in the 4th and then every time we go down the floor, Garland or Mitchell just drive to the hoop and get a layup within 6 seconds, something is very wrong. Maybe part of that wrongness is how we were being officiated, such that Mitchell could grift a few calls Dame or Harden-style and our guys were gun-shy, but at most that was only part of the problem. There were a few plays where things worked (e.g. Hauser getting cooked by Mitchell 3 times in a row, but then holding up and getting a miss on a 15-footer the 4th time), but it felt like they were not part of long stretches of us playing good defense, they were occasional moments of focus or great individual plays (like the blocks). Put differently, our individual defenders were OK, but our team defense was lacking.
If I had a few hours and a byline on CelticsBlog, I'd put up some clips and show the breakdowns (or, alternatively, the choices we were making to give up X to take away Y, which mostly did not appear to pay off). But just watch the highlights package upthread and you'll see plenty of them. The comparison to the ECSF in May, with basically the exact same personnel on both sides, is striking.
At 1:04, JT was clearly trying to defend without fouling. Up 7 with 1:12 left, he's just trying to impede DM, not stop him.
With regards to the foul, JT is going for the steal but I think he also understands that the foul won't hurt BOS, only a foul and DM launching a 3P. So he goes very physical.
The most interesting thing about the foul is how JT was knocked off course but Mitchell crumpled. JT is a biiiggg dude.
I think Mitchell was trying to sell it a bit to get a flagrant to get two shots and the ball since they were down 5. He did get hit but he def made the most of it.. including staying down for about five minutes.
They were driving quite a bit but getting zero calls against a very physical Cleveland team. There was a ton of hand checking and body to initiate drives.. and then they got hacked at the rim. There’s a point where swallowing the whistles is almost as bad as calling everything. This Brothers crew is awful with consistency and game flow if last night is any indication. Tatum was definitely yelling at him near the end of the game.
Agree that Mitchell embellished the rolling around the floor.
But you can see, his body recoiled when hit by JT and the same was not true for JT. I'm sure that hit rattled Mitchell's bones.
Agreed. Mitchell is jacked for a normal human, but so is Tatum. DM was more surprised by the reach and contact and really didn't have time to anticipate it. That probably felt like one of those falls from height when there's contact at the rim. I'm not sure that he was selling it that much.
Mitchell was 100% selling it on the Tatum foul. The problem was that he had sold a Brown foul just before that and the refs weren't having any of it. Without the sell job on the Brown foul they probably review the Tatum foul.
The last 6-7 minutes of the 3rd quarter felt like a layup line. Looking at the game log:
6:20 3 foot layup
5:43 driving layup
5:14 dunk
4:32 dunk and one
4:14 unsure of length on this one
3:27 dunk
2:53 6' shot
2:25 1' shot
1:51 16' shot
1:19 dunk
:47 layup
That's like 8 bunnies in a half a quarter
Once teams have focused on this it has been the case all year. To our benefit and for reasons that don’t make much sense, it has taken some teams half of the game to begin exposing him. He’s definitely much improved but is still a limited minutes guy if not a DNP-CD come playoff time.
I think it’s been clear that while teams allow him to not be hunted Queta has outplayed Kornet thus far. There is no reason to sit him for what teams “could” do to him when he’s been the better of the two while on the floor prior to the opponents adjustment.
The best outcome is if they can win games and keep letting Queta try to develop. If he becomes passable on the perimeter, that is a massive win.
It feels a little like the Celtics haven't been playing great. Three losses, and some close wins that maybe shouldn't have been that close. But then I look up and they're playing .800 ball, on pace for about 66 wins, all without KP playing a single minute yet.
If you look at who was on the floor for those minutes, it becomes apparent where the black holes are in this defense sometimes. Queta is taking the lion's share of the blame, but Pritchard really makes the defense fall apart at times too. Pritchard, Queta, and Hauser on the floor at the same time can be really bad news against the wrong teams, because Hauser doesn't have the length to make up for Pritchard's deficiencies, and neither Pritchard nor Hauser has the length or quickness to help when Queta gets beaten on the perimeter. Joe is ok with this, because burning out his starters this early in the season is a bad idea. Shouldn't be an issue in the playoffs if everyone is healthy.
I mean keep playing him until he becomes a consistent liability would be the logical course until KP returns.
Exactly. He has progressed. His mobility and awareness was pretty bad before. It has improved a lot. I doubt that he'll ever have Al's savvy or TL's hops, but the closer he gets, the more playable he becomes. Let's find his ceiling while it doesn't matter.
In my head I'm constantly comparing to the machine that was the first half Celtics on opening night. So things feel worse than they should be, where I know that the regular season has ups and downs and hot/cold nights.
The Queta minutes last night were interesting. I think Joe knows he can always turn to Kornet and play drop coverage in those situations and get by defensively. You turn Mitchell/Garland into midrange jump shooters and live with the results. The thing is, though, if you have a big that can credibly switch onto those guys and stick with them on the perimeter (like a prime Al Horford) you have the chance to go from good to suffocating defensively. Queta's the only big on the roster who might be capable of doing it, and this was a perfect opportunity for the team to find out against an opponent that was definitely going to go at him.
And while it was certainly a mixed bag, I thought there were a solid number of possessions where Queta did a nice job sticking with Mitchell and contesting, and the shots just went in. I was actually encouraged by his lateral movement and quickness, even if he sometimes bit on fakes that he needs to learn to stay away from.
And while it was certainly a mixed bag, I thought there were a solid number of possessions where Queta did a nice job sticking with Mitchell and contesting, and the shots just went in. I was actually encouraged by his lateral movement and quickness, even if he sometimes bit on fakes that he needs to learn to stay away from.
10000%.
As it was all happening, it was incredibly annoying since it seemed like it was a complete act...but he definitely took a shoulder to the jaw. Completely legal foul but definitely a hard one
An added silver lining, Sam Vecinie made a great point in his post-game breakdown, with film, showing that the Boston offense has essentially been straight vanilla. They can basically sleep walk through the regular season on talent and matchups alone with a TON of scheme left available to them in a series.
https://www.youtube.com/live/msMidmagIDk?si=7429a5VIJ-q4KSfl
While a blowout in a Cup Game would be nice, tight games are better for this team. CJM is in data collection mode, and garbage time stats are useless.
Yep, keep playing Queta and see if he can handle smalls/wings on the perimeter.
Agreed, CJM knows Luke can handle drop
That's how I felt too. It's not like Mitchell went hog wild. It took him an awful lot of shots to get those points, some of them very hard shots. Mitchell burns most people. That's why he's awesome.
That said, Queta is clearly a big dropoff from Al (who's already a bit of a dropoff from last year Al) and obviously KP. FWIW, I think that Queta's numbers would look a little better if he were sharing the floor with better defenders more often too. That's true for everyone, of course. But his weaknesses get exposed more when 2 or more of JT/DW/JH are on the bench.