Garbage time again: what's the plan this time?

KillerBs

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Rasputin said:
I guess results don't matter much since we're not going to the post season, but I can't think asking Hanley Ramirez to try first base in the middle of a season is a recipe for disaster. Unless the transition is seamless--which is hard to imagine--I don't see how there's even an upside. If he looks kind of meh, defensively, is that going to convince anyone who watches that he'll be a good option there? 
 
Personally, I'd like to see David Ortiz get the 14 home runs he needs to hit .500 and decide to retire while he's still pretty good. That clears the DH for Ramirez, and the OF for Castillo, Betts, Bradley, and whatever other guys they bring in.
What is the potential disaster? That he sucks defensively at first? If so, who cares, and critically, we have learned this is not an option for 2016. 
 
And why would the transition need to be seamless? If it takes him a couple months to get the hang of it over there, there is a huge upside -- we have found a position that he can play, and cleared an OF space for someone who can. As an added bonus it allows us to find out if our 2 major internal options deserve regular PT in 2016. 
 
As for the concern with an off-field disaster, I look at it differently: if Hanley balks at playing 1b, it presents a nice opportunity to get thru to him who is in charge. 
 

AB in DC

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KillerBs said:
What is the potential disaster? That he sucks defensively at first? If so, who cares, and critically, we have learned this is not an option for 2016. 
 
 
If you move HanRam to a position he's never played before in his life, and he plays like someone who never played 1B before in his life, then we've learned nothing.  
 

moondog80

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AB in DC said:
 
If you move HanRam to a position he's never played before in his life, and he plays like someone who never played 1B before in his life, then we've learned nothing.  
Obviously if they moved him it would be with the understanding that there would be a learning curve involved and he would be judged only on the progress he made.
 

Rasputin

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AB in DC said:
 
If you move HanRam to a position he's never played before in his life, and he plays like someone who never played 1B before in his life, then we've learned nothing.  
 
Yeah, this. 
 
moondog80 said:
Obviously if they moved him it would be with the understanding that there would be a learning curve involved and he would be judged only on the progress he made.
 
Would you want to do something for the first time in your life with thousands of people watching? I sure as hell wouldn't, and I'd imagine Hanley Ramirez has a bigger ego than I do. Trying Ramirez at first has a high probability of embarrassing him in front of thousands of people with a very low probability of actually learning anything. If he's up for it, then sure, but I just don't see the point.
 

moondog80

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Rasputin said:
 
 
 
Would you want to do something for the first time in your life with thousands of people watching? I sure as hell wouldn't, and I'd imagine Hanley Ramirez has a bigger ego than I do. Trying Ramirez at first has a high probability of embarrassing him in front of thousands of people with a very low probability of actually learning anything. If he's up for it, then sure, but I just don't see the point.
Yeah, I wouldn't force it on him either, but he can't possibly be the first person to do it mid season.
 

AB in DC

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moondog80 said:
Yeah, I wouldn't force it on him either, but he can't possibly be the first person to do it mid season.
 
With zero professional experience at that position?  Really?  I can't see it.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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AB in DC said:
 
With zero professional experience at that position?  Really?  I can't see it.
 
There have been plenty of players to don the first baseman's mitt without any prior experience, though few of them did it with the idea that they'd be taking the position over full time.  For example, Brock Holt had never played 1B in any capacity until he got the start there on June 1, 2014.  He ended up playing there for seven straight games, making one error (in the first game).  And he's filled in there occasionally since.
 
I think whether or not Hanley is capable of doing the job is debatable.  Making the argument that he can't because no one has done it before doesn't fly at all.
 

The Gray Eagle

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Plympton91 said:
 
Contrary to KillerB's frustration with people who don't want to move HR to 1B in the middle of the season (or, in my case, ever), I am, like you, convinced that doing so would be a) likely a disaster both on the field and off, and b) even if it wasn't, so inconclusive that you've actually learned nothing of use.   My position remains that a professional athlete who can hit 95 mph fastballs and play SS well enough to do so for a division winning team should have no problem playing LF.   I hear those who are saying that for some reason judging a flyball from 275 feet away is more difficult than hitting, or catching a popup, or scooping a low throw, but I just don't buy it at all.   Robin Yount, Craig Biggio, and countless others made midcareer switches to the outfield seemlessly; Carlton Fisk even came out from behind the plate and played LF for a season late in his career.
 
It's not that it's more difficult than fielding grounders, it's that it's different. Judging flyballs is something that infielders never do. The skill is completely different, and it's one that Ramirez never even tried before this spring. It's like saying he is a pro athlete and a baseball player, so why can't he play catcher? He can catch a baseball, can't he? Napoli and Biggio and Dale Murphy etc. played both of them, so he should too! That would be dumb because the skills needed are completely different. 
 
Left field is pretty easy for anyone who can learn to judge a flyball. And many players can do that. But not all of them. Listen to Remy talk about the time he tried to play outfield. It was completely foreign to him and impossible for him to do at the major league level, he couldn't figure out where a simple fly ball was going to land. There are a lot of infielders who can't. The Red Sox thought Hanley probably could learn it because he is a good athlete and was still pretty mobile as of last year. And he is still not a slow runner. But it's not working out there, he still plays like he isn't sure where the ball is going to land. 
 
Playing first base is at least an infield position, and infield is where Ramirez has played for his whole career. That transition should be more suited for him than trying to fit him into the outfield, because the skill demands are at least closer to what he can do at the big league level. We know he can field grounders and take throws to an infield base because he's actually done those things before. That doesn't mean he would be a good defender there, but he wouldn't be a good defender anywhere. There's a decent chance he would be less bad at first than in left, because he would be doing a lot of things that he's done before, and there's no huge aspect of it that is a completely different skill than anything he's done before. (Yes, the footwork would be important and different, and the toss to the pitcher covering would be as well, and he would likely suck at those, but those are reasons why he wouldn't be good there, not why he couldn't play it at all. There are plenty of guys who play first base who aren't good at those things.)
 
And since we need a first baseman for next year but have like 4 guys who can play left field, it makes sense to try him there in garbage time. It also opens up playing time in the outfield for Bradley for the rest of this year. 
 
If he tries first base and it's a disaster, so what? He's already a disaster in left and the games are basically exhibition games now anyway. If he tries it and is halfway decent then that makes the roster for next year less screwed up. 
 

Plympton91

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Everything comes back to opening up playing time for the Bradley binky with this crew, doesn't it?

I appreciate that you put a lot of thought into that post. But no matter how many words people use, I don't buy it. Remy saying, "I did it once and it was really hard" is not the same thing. They're not asking HR to go out there in the middle of a game and fill in for a week. The problem is that he's not working at, ostensibly because doing Pregame work makes him too sore to play. So how's he going to put in Pregame work at 1B to be anything other than atrocious there either?
 

Rasputin

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Rasputin said:
Personally, I'd like to see David Ortiz get the 14 home runs he needs to hit .500 and decide to retire while he's still pretty good.
You know what? I wanna take that back. I wouldn't like to see him retire. I think there's a pretty decent chance he does and I'm going to miss him when he's gone.
 

KillerBs

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Plympton91 said:
Everything comes back to opening up playing time for the Bradley binky with this crew, doesn't it?

I appreciate that you put a lot of thought into that post. But no matter how many words people use, I don't buy it. Remy saying, "I did it once and it was really hard" is not the same thing. They're not asking HR to go out there in the middle of a game and fill in for a week. The problem is that he's not working at, ostensibly because doing Pregame work makes him too sore to play. So how's he going to put in Pregame work at 1B to be anything other than atrocious there either?
Pretty much yeah. Bradley is a 25 year old OFer, with gold glove defense, whose OPS is top 10 of the IL. He is a pretty decent bet to be an average to above average major league OFer for the next 3-5 years and his floor looks like a good/great 4th OFer.  We currently have 1 major league OFer, 1 more who appears not to be up to the job defensively and a couple veteran retreads. We need at least one, really 2 OFers.
 
Why would anyone not want to give Bradley 60 games playing every day to see what he is? If he hits 190 again, so be it. If he hits close to or at league average, you have a key piece of a pennant winning team as early as next year or alternatively significant trade chip. Letting him sit in Pawtucket for August is indefensible, afaic. 
 

mfried

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I agree completely.  Dissecting your post:
We currently have 1 major league OFer, 1 more who appears not to be up to the job defensively and a couple veteran retreads.
 
1 major league OFer must be Mookie, 1 not up to the job must be Hanley - where is Rusney?
 

lexrageorge

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JBJ is putting up a 0.853 OPS for the PawSox.  Maybe at 25 he's finally figured it out at the plate.  It's not hard to get the feeling that the Sox are overly focused on one bad year at 24 and 30 measly at bats this season. Let him play every day alongside Castillo and Betts.  At this point in the lost season, I'm not convinced there's a downside to that strategy. 
 

In my lifetime

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Betts is likely going to be out at least a week or 2 with a concussion, so JBJ is going to get his opportunity.

De Aza is also a free agent next year, so if they can get anything for him he should be moved.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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lexrageorge said:
JBJ is putting up a 0.853 OPS for the PawSox.  Maybe at 25 he's finally figured it out at the plate.  It's not hard to get the feeling that the Sox are overly focused on one bad year at 24 and 30 measly at bats this season. Let him play every day alongside Castillo and Betts.  At this point in the lost season, I'm not convinced there's a downside to that strategy. 
 
I'm just not buying the idea that the Sox have given up on him, or are over-emphasizing last year or his 30 PA this year.  Where are they going to play him right now?  They're not benching Betts, obviously (though if he's concussed after the spill into the pen last night, that's a different story).  They're not benching Hanley, nor are they moving him to 3B or 1B or any other pipedream fan wishcasted scenario.  That leaves right field, where they've got two players splitting time at the moment (Deaza and Castillo).  Deaza could (should?) be moved by the end of the week, which opens up a roster spot for JBJ, but is a platoon situation really going to be all that educational over the final 60 games of the season?
 
Given all that, there's little harm in leaving him right where he is for the time being getting regular playing time.
 

Humphrey

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In my lifetime said:
Betts is likely going to be out at least a week or 2 with a concussion, so JBJ is going to get his opportunity.

De Aza is also a free agent next year, so if they can get anything for him he should be moved.
Agree on both counts-  when Betts comes back there's still a lot of playing time for JBJ and Castillo regardless of where Ramirez ends up. 
 

MikeM

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j44thor said:
 
Last I checked Zimmerman is still going to be a FA this off-season, one that likely includes Price, Cueto, Grienke among others.  How can you definitively say what Zimmerman will get?  Porcello is currently the 15th highest paid starter in 2016, I guess time will tell but it is a near certainty that not every elite FA next season breaks the bank.  There are only so many teams that can afford 20M+ pitchers.
 
 
There really does project to be an unprecedented amount of higher quality pitching options hitting the market this winter, and those mega $20m+ contracts usually materialize out of a scenario where a small handful of teams with the expendable payroll flexibility to burn are fighting over the 2 or maybe 3 of those types available.  As (arguably) the 4th best starter free agency would have to offer it should be interesting to see how that all plays out.
 
Setting the betting line at Lester's contract, i'm probably left taking the under on Zimmerman. 
 

Yelling At Clouds

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Red(s)HawksFan said:
 
I'm just not buying the idea that the Sox have given up on him, or are over-emphasizing last year or his 30 PA this year.  Where are they going to play him right now?  They're not benching Betts, obviously (though if he's concussed after the spill into the pen last night, that's a different story).  They're not benching Hanley, nor are they moving him to 3B or 1B or any other pipedream fan wishcasted scenario.  That leaves right field, where they've got two players splitting time at the moment (Deaza and Castillo).  Deaza could (should?) be moved by the end of the week, which opens up a roster spot for JBJ, but is a platoon situation really going to be all that educational over the final 60 games of the season?
 
Given all that, there's little harm in leaving him right where he is for the time being getting regular playing time.
 
It's a moot issue since he's up again (for now), but this just seems utterly backwards to me. You have a guy at AAA with an .850 OPS, your team is in last and playing terribly, and the incumbents at his position are varying shades of mediocre. Why wouldn't you find a way to give him a shot?
 

Idabomb333

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Plympton91 said:
 
 
Finally, I don't get why people think that replacing David Ortiz with Hanley Ramirez at DH makes the Red Sox better.   If, as Ras wishes for above, David Ortiz hits 14 home runs over the final two months of 2015, then in what world does replacing him in the lineup with Rusnay Castillo or Jackie Bradley make the Red Sox a better team in 2016?  If Ortiz hits 14 HR in the final 2 months of 2015, then I want him batting 3rd next April, and Castillo, Bradley, and Ramirez can get in line behind him based on how they do over the next 2 months.
I don't want to speak for anyone else, especially because I don't actually hope Papi retires, but I don't think it's particularly hard to see how it theoretically could make the Sox better. Even assuming you lose some value at DH moving from 2016 Ortiz to 2016 Ramirez, all you have to do is find a way to use Ortiz's money to pay someone who would be better in LF than Ramirez by a larger margin than the loss at DH. Hanley's defense has been so bad, JBJ or Castillo might be able to provide that upgrade essentially for free and leave the team with Ortiz's money to spend on, say, 1B for a big net gain in wins despite a likely inferior offense. If 2016 Hanley is actually a better DH than 2016 Ortiz, and the money gets used to bring in a very good 1B or LF somehow, the team could theoretically improve on both offense and defense because Ortiz retired. That's a stretch, but not an absurd one. The overall net gain strikes me as at least close to likely, so I can't blame someone for thinking it likely.
 

Plympton91

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Danny_Darwin said:
 
It's a moot issue since he's up again (for now), but this just seems utterly backwards to me. You have a guy at AAA with an .850 OPS, your team is in last and playing terribly, and the incumbents at his position are varying shades of mediocre. Why wouldn't you find a way to give him a shot?
 
The Red Sox have never been particularly focused on minor league statistics.  Perhaps the lack of interest in calling him up suggests that he's succeeding in AAA with an approach that they don't believe will work in the major leagues.   We know that he made a big stink about "having to stop listening to all the advice" or something like that.  Perhaps they aren't happy that he stopped trying to make the adjustments they wanted and went back to a swing/approach that is good for AAA but no good for the majors.  He wouldn't be the first such Izzy Alcantara or Morgan Burkhart
 

nvalvo

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Plympton91 said:
 
The Red Sox have never been particularly focused on minor league statistics.  Perhaps the lack of interest in calling him up suggests that he's succeeding in AAA with an approach that they don't believe will work in the major leagues.   We know that he made a big stink about "having to stop listening to all the advice" or something like that.  Perhaps they aren't happy that he stopped trying to make the adjustments they wanted and went back to a swing/approach that is good for AAA but no good for the majors.  He wouldn't be the first such Izzy Alcantara or Morgan Burkhart
 
Okay, but how do you explain his (terrible) 2014 AAA numbers?
 
Nevermind, we'll know soon enough. 
 

Snoop Soxy Dogg

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Plympton91 said:
 
The Red Sox have never been particularly focused on minor league statistics.  Perhaps the lack of interest in calling him up suggests that he's succeeding in AAA with an approach that they don't believe will work in the major leagues.   We know that he made a big stink about "having to stop listening to all the advice" or something like that.  Perhaps they aren't happy that he stopped trying to make the adjustments they wanted and went back to a swing/approach that is good for AAA but no good for the majors.  He wouldn't be the first such Izzy Alcantara or Morgan Burkhart
 
Now that's the spirit. They should just trade him at this point, that would be best for him.
And this is really the Red Sox predicament; to integrate young players - who more often than not, go through phases of failure - in an environment that just has no patience for that, from the fans (most of them anyway, whatever else they may say) to the manager, who seemingly couldn't care less for young players. And when your vets let you down too, you get 2014 and 2015.
 
In the end, we're really more like the Yankees than we're loath to admit.
 

Yelling At Clouds

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Among other things, there's a new hitting coach this year who has already gotten much better results out of a young player who had a similarly lost year at the plate in 2014.
 

jscola85

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This is a real banner day for the 2015 Red Sox FA class.  Porcello tagged for 6+ runs, Sandoval allows 2 dubious hits within his zone, and Hanley makes an errant throw leading to an unearned run.
 

TheYellowDart5

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jscola85 said:
This is a real banner day for the 2015 Red Sox FA class.  Porcello tagged for 6+ runs, Sandoval allows 2 dubious hits within his zone, and Hanley makes an errant throw leading to an unearned run.
 
Two out of three ain't bad.
 

jscola85

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TheYellowDart5 said:
 
Two out of three ain't bad.
 
Sandoval further covers himself in glory by running at a Mirabelli-esque pace to get thrown out at home on a ball that rolled to the bullpen.  Looks like he needs oxygen on the bench.
 

nattysez

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I am not a fan of Farrell or Cherington, but claiming that they did not give JBJ a fair shot, or that the team and fans were not patient with him, is simply not true.  Please look at JBJ's game log for 2014.  He played almost every day from April through mid-August. 
 
If you want to argue that he's discovered his hitting stroke in AAA and would rake in the majors if he just had one more chance, he's got that chance now.  I really can't quibble with not calling him up sooner this year after he was so bad so long last year.  
 

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nattysez said:
I am not a fan of Farrell or Cherington, but claiming that they did not give JBJ a fair shot, or that the team and fans were not patient with him, is simply not true.  Please look at JBJ's game log for 2014.  He played almost every day from April through mid-August. 
 
If you want to argue that he's discovered his hitting stroke in AAA and would rake in the majors if he just had one more chance, he's got that chance now.  I really can't quibble with not calling him up sooner this year after he was so bad so long last year.  
 
Thank you for the game log.  It does seem like a lot of chatter about JBJ being slighted.  
 

nvalvo

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BestGameEvah said:
 
Thank you for the game log.  It does seem like a lot of chatter about JBJ being slighted.  
 
Bradley's been the eleventh best hitter by OPS in the International League this season. Four of the guys ahead of him are first basemen in their late twenties. 
 

redsoxstiff

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2 ways to proceed. 1 ) repair/improve what we have.


select1 one ...One owner ,the GM,Manager,He who is in charge of minors, 1 advisor. All for the boot

select option 2

re-examine Farrell. why keep him?

lucchino...Right out ,,.!
CB...gone my book...
Pitchers coach is still having little or no influence...
minors coach too.
Player acquisition good. But the pitching drafts/ could be better.