Gamethread 11/2-3

candylandriots

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Jkempa, congrats. I had to go to Berlin a few times for my old job, but Hertha never really grabbed me as anything exciting. I'll have to catch a Union game next time I go back.
If you ever do, let me know - I’d be happy to take you to one! Same for any of you guys if you’re ever in town. Stadion an der alten Försterei is a blast to see a game at. Something like 22,000 spectators, but only 3500 seats. You have to walk through the woods to get there (which is super convenient after the game when you need a piss, too). There’s a lot of fun history about this team. I’ve talked about it a bit before, but it would be hard to invent a team better suited for me - they’re the anti-Stasi team of the punk movement in Berlin. It’s a cult club for a lot of good reasons.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1._FC_Union_Berlin
 

SoxFanInCali

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California. Duh.
Awesome, I'll take you up on that next time I'm out there.

Just finished watching Real Madrid-Real Betis in a pub in Amsterdam with a Madrid fan that lives in Barcelona. He's quite annoyed with the 0-0 draw.
 

candylandriots

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Thank goodness Guaita is back from injury and he's starting instead of Hennessey.

Weird to see Palace playing towards the Holmesdale Fanatics in the first half. I haven't seen that for years.
 

candylandriots

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You would think Crystal Palace would have spent all last week in training working on defending corners. If they did, their results aren’t showing it. Foxes lead 0-1.
 

candylandriots

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Vardy makes it 2-0.

I can't wait for this run of games to finish - Chelsea and Liverpool coming up next. Hooray.
 

67YAZ

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Positive start from Everton, but why was Walcott doing with that pass? Yeesh
 

Kliq

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Captain Ben Davies does not instill a lot of confidence.
 

67YAZ

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Eriksen looks so bad - slow and dull with the ball. I don’t think Madrid will be calling if he maintains this form.
 

Kliq

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Awful, uninspired play. Eriksen has been such a pumpkin this season.
 

Mugsy's Jock

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Trying to think of another example like Eriksen, who went from being one of my favorite players to one of my most unloved, so fast. Kyrie? Clemens? Schilling?
 

Kliq

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Son definitely went down when he felt the contact, but the defender is out of control, leaves his feet and makes significant contact with Son. VAR has given a penalty for less.
 

Kliq

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Bad challenge by Son, leads to Andre Gomes getting Hayward’ed. Horrible, gruesome injury. Son goes into immediate shock and I feel like I’m going to cry, and he gets shown the red. Terrible, terrible moment.
 

Mr. Wednesday

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Looked like it was more awkward landing with his boot grabbing the turf than anything malicious in the challenge. :(
 

Kliq

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Looks like Son clipped him from behind, causing Gomes to lose his balance and crash ankles first into Aurier, which led to Gomes getting his ankle dislocated.
 

candylandriots

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I didn't see the actual injury, but that didn't look like a red card from Son from what I saw. Was it?
 

Kliq

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I didn't see the actual injury, but that didn't look like a red card from Son from what I saw. Was it?
From what I can recall, I believe Son was actually shown a yellow card first, and once the ref saw the state of Gomes, gave him a red. To me, it was a bad challenge that was definitely worth a yellow, and the red was given because Gomes had been injured. It wouldn’t surprise me if the red card is rescinded.
 

SocrManiac

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Far be it for me to defend a Spurs player, but that’s never a red. Atkinson absolutely re-legislated the result, not the event. The injury to Gomes is horrific and never something you want to see, but it’s an incident that happens when athletes compete at insanely high speeds and fitness levels.
 

OCST

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Far be it for me to defend a Spurs player, but that’s never a red. Atkinson absolutely re-legislated the result, not the event. The injury to Gomes is horrific and never something you want to see, but it’s an incident that happens when athletes compete at insanely high speeds and fitness levels.
No, it wasn't. It was a yellow all the way, there was bad intent in it, but if Gomes doesn't come across Aurier at an odd angle he doesn't suffer this injury.

You could tell it was bad by the players' reactions on both teams. Seamus Coleman, who had one of these a few years ago and hasn't been quite as good since, was comforting Son, who was distraught.

So yeah, not a red. But only one of the officials' screwups. By the letter of the law, Everton deserved a penalty when the ball struck Alli with his hands over his head in the box - which would have been a much more deserved spot-kick than the travesty awarded to Brighton against Everton last week. VAR looked at it for three minutes and gave nothing, which was a few minutes fewer than it took VAR to award the Seagulls a penalty last week. Once play resumed, the telecast showed a clear view of the handball and the announcers quickly pointed out that VAR didn't even have that view. Also, Richarlison was breaking away with open pitch in front of him late in the second half, and was the recipient of a clear professional foul, but nothing was given. On the other hand, Spurs probably had a legit complaint that Son had been fouled in the box.

A shitshow all around.
 

PedroSpecialK

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By my count, in Atkinson’s last three matches (two as match, one as VAR) he’s been the focal point of discussion and has made significantly match-altering mistakes in all three.

What’s the threshold for 86ing an incompetent referee? Somehow Mike Dean made it back up to the prem so I’m assuming it’s astronomical, but this is getting ridiculous
 

Tangled Up In Red

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No, it wasn't. It was a yellow all the way, there was bad intent in it, but if Gomes doesn't come across Aurier at an odd angle he doesn't suffer this injury.
Exactly. And the yellow had already been show before Atkinson sees Gomes ankle. He then issues red. Absurd.


By the letter of the law, Everton deserved a penalty when the ball struck Alli with his hands over his head in the box - which would have been a much more deserved spot-kick than the travesty awarded to Brighton against Everton last week. VAR looked at it for three minutes and gave nothing, which was a few minutes fewer than it took VAR to award the Seagulls a penalty last week. Once play resumed, the telecast showed a clear view of the handball and the announcers quickly pointed out that VAR didn't even have that view.
I think this one was more nuanced than you suggest. Yes, the ball clearly hit Dele's hand. But, it appeared to have deflected there off of Mina's upper arm. More important, to my eyes, was the fact that Mina was above Dele, with his elbow and arm draped across Dele's upper body. Having initiated the contact by jumping in (and holding Dele down), Mina disrupted Dele's abiility to control his body. How can you reward that with a pen?

 

SocrManiac

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I think this one was more nuanced than you suggest. Yes, the ball clearly hit Dele's hand. But, it appeared to have deflected there off of Mina's upper arm. More important, to my eyes, was the fact that Mina was above Dele, with his elbow and arm draped across Dele's upper body. Having initiated the contact by jumping in (and holding Dele down), Mina disrupted Dele's abiility to control his body. How can you reward that with a pen?
I agree wholeheartedly. However, this has been so inconsistently applied this year as to be an utter throw of the dart. In this case, I'm in-line with the interpretation. However, De Ligt's arms have somehow developed ball magnets over the summer. He's been hit in by deflections in the arm in a far more natural (even protected) position and conceded pens as a result. Oddly, this weekend, the latest wasn't ruled a penalty. Further proof it's a crapshoot.
 

OCST

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That's not the view that shows it well.

Again - I said "by the letter of the law." I don't think that this is a penalty, pre-handball rule change and pre-VAR. But if Michael Keane got penalized for much less than this at Brighton... it's the inconsistency, which you don't need me to tell you about.

I've gone back and forth on the Son red. I don't think Gomes' ankle bends 90 degrees and the bone breaks the skin (according to witnesses, the broadcast refused to show it) if it's just Son's tackle. It's the weird bounce off of Aurier, who is blameless in the whole thing. But- Son has lost the ball, Gomes is past him, it's very late, there is no chance for him to get the ball when he comes in on Gomes. It's not a high two-footed tackle like you usually think of for a straight red, but given the impossibility of getting the ball I'm inclined more toward straight red then yellow. Did Son intend to snap Gomes' leg in half? No. Did he mean to hurt Gomes? Probably. Was it rank and cynical shithousery with reckless disregard for Gomes' safety? Yes.

Gomes' surgery evidently went well https://cartilagefreecaptain.sbnation.com/2019/11/4/20947767/tottenham-hotspur-everton-andre-gomes-injury-full-recovery

So that's great.

Overshadowed was that Everton and Spurs both played dire and limp football, and each can rue a missed opportunity to snap out of its funk against a wounded opponent.
 

SocrManiac

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Nice breakdown on the rule from Reddit.

When a rule needs multiple clarifications, it's a pretty shitty rule. This is exactly like the NFL defining a catch. In both cases, you just know it when you see it and no amount of verbiage can legislate all situations.
 

Tangled Up In Red

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Did Son intend to snap Gomes' leg in half? No. Did he mean to hurt Gomes? Probably. Was it rank and cynical shithousery with reckless disregard for Gomes' safety? Yes.
Those last two statements are pretty inflammatory and outrageous. It was a cynical tackle that happens a handful of times in every match. Clipped his heel out of frustration (he'd been elbowed in the face by Gomes moments earlier) and to break up play. To suggest any malice or disregard is gravely unfair to Son.

Yes, as is the fact that he's only 26 and not a player who is overly dependent on athleticism. Fingers crossed for full health.

Overshadowed was that Everton and Spurs both played dire and limp football, and each can rue a missed opportunity to snap out of its funk against a wounded opponent.
No disagreement.