Game Week 20 - The Window Has Opened

Pesky Pole

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Mayhem has already begun with Newcastle and Tottenham

Saturday
10:00 EST
AFC Bournemouth - Everton
Aston Villa - Leicester
C Palace - Chelsea
Man City - West Ham
Southampton - Brentford
12:30 EST
Brighton - Arsenal
Sunday
09:00 EST
Fulham - Ipswich
11:30 EST
Liverpool - Man Utd
Monday
15:00 EST
Wolves - Nottm Forest
 
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OCST

Sunny von Bulow
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I have to say, I like these Newcastle kits (minus that stupid ass-diagonal stripe that’s standard adidas this season)
 

Pesky Pole

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Bergvall looks like he will be a player. Sweden has some players on display in this game between Bergvall, Kulusevski and Isak.
 

Pesky Pole

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Did Spurs really rest their starters for the League Cup semis? It’s being discussed a little on the post game.
 

OCST

Sunny von Bulow
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Chalk so far at the hour mark of the 3:00 games. Villa, Chelsea, Brentford winning, City murdering the Hammers, BOU—EVE nil-nil.
 

Mr Jums

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I'm a smidge biased but Palace actually looking really solid vs Chelsea. It's a very back and forth game with lots of chances on both sides. If you didn't know the teams you'd be hard pressed to tell which team is top 3 and which is 15th
 

Mr Jums

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Haaaa I stepped away for one sec to check the mail and Palace ties it up at 1. I thought I was jinxing it the other way (though there's time!)
 

fletcherpost

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Surely Everton need to find a striker (who can score) from somewhere this window. They've only got 15 goals in the league. I dare say they can grind themselves to safety this season but it'll be a tough watch for their fans.
 

OCST

Sunny von Bulow
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Surely Everton need to find a striker (who can score) from somewhere this window. They've only got 15 goals in the league. I dare say they can grind themselves to safety this season but it'll be a tough watch for their fans.
You could have Haaland up front. No striker is sniffing the ball with this dour, hopeless, unambitious style of play.
 

fletcherpost

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Good finish by Nwaneri - he had a free run at goal. Keeper might have done better, but not a bad way to open your Premier League account.

Edit: it's his second Premier League goal.
 
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fletcherpost

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Brighton should have scored there...so many players running to get on the end of the low crossed ball. Just need a bit more quality with the final pass.
 

the1andonly3003

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Maybe Big Ange conflated this Newcastle squad with Big Sam's era

Tim and Robbie are blasting Arsenal's B squad for being weak vs Brighton. Not sure what more to expect from this group given the injuries and illness...
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Brighton level on a penalty after Saliba head-butts Joao in the box.
Every time an attacking player goes down after a clash of heads in the box and they stop the game - which is practically every match - its ultimately a situation like this where two guys go for a header and end up knocking heads after one of them gets there a millisecond beforehand. Saliba actually gets the ball too. Joao Pedro heads it, it comes off the top of Saliba's head, and then the heads clash.

I cannot recall another penalty called in this situation.

Arsenal were poor but these kinds of games - shit weather, jaded players, injuries, half the team with flu - you need some luck and you can't have referees just handing unique penalties to the opponent for kicks.
 
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SocrManiac

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We live in a world where I feel like Arsenal got jobbed. PMGOL has done the impossible- every EPL fan is united in their feelings on the state of refereeing. There seems to be absolutely no interest in calling a game correctly, only in justifying the call that was made, accuracy be damned.
 

teddykgb

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I think that one falls more in the "I wish that weren't called a foul because it's a 50/50 and players need to play" than a refereeing malpractice. They had a good view of it and he definitely makes head to head contact, it's only a question of whether you think that should be a foul
 

SocrManiac

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We’ve come to equate contact with fouls, and that’s a core issue right now. We see a player go down in the box. The referee blows his whistle and points to the spot. VAR looks to see if there is contact to justify it. If there’s contact, the call is confirmed and there’s a pen. VAR doesn’t try to use any sort of judgement to determine if the contact led to the result. In fact, given Mike Dean’s statements, I’d argue the opposite is true: VAR is looking for any shred of evidence to justify the on-field referee’s call, regardless of how correct or incorrect it is.

This situation has come about because the reward for deceiving the referee changes the outcome of games. The risk is almost negligible. How many outright dives are actually punished with yellow cards? 5%? Less? So, an attacker feels the brush of contact and goes down, knowing that the process is on their side. If the referee is deceived, VAR will confirm. If he isn’t, he won’t be punished.

VAR needs the autonomy to get these calls correct. I don’t care what the referee’s decision is. It’s one guy, typically older, trying to keep up with 22 elite athletes with 9600 square yards to play with. It’s an impossible job. Look at the play, determine if there was a foul. Don’t look for a brush of contact.

During the week, convene a panel of players and referees to look at shady “fouls.” Let them decide if there was a dive. If they’re unanimous, issue a three match suspension.

Doing the same shit over and over again and expecting improvement is insane. We’re so far past the point of knowing this system is devastatingly broken that it’s criminal we’re continuing down the same road.
 

teddykgb

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You don't mean it. You'll just be on here screaming about the incompetent Var if you give var refs discretion.

In any case this isn't a good example of your manifesto, which I generally agree with anyway. This is the type of call that sometimes goes against a team sometimes and you get away with sometimes. It's a legitimately weird situation that doesn't happen often and it's hard to have a written rule that covers it
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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In any case this isn't a good example of your manifesto, which I generally agree with anyway. This is the type of call that sometimes goes against a team sometimes and you get away with sometimes. It's a legitimately weird situation that doesn't happen often and it's hard to have a written rule that covers it
It would be easier to accept if this was the case but I’ve still yet to see anybody - on a couple different forums, or the social media I follow - point to another example of a penalty being called in this situation after a clash of heads in the box by two players contesting a header.

Arteta is obviously self-interested but he said after the match that he’d never seen it and he asked the team in the locker room afterward and they’d never seen it either.
 

Mighty Joe Young

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Just watched the replay (didn’t see it live). That was a ludicrous call - and in my experience unprecedented.

As pointed out VAR’s refusal to overturn the call - or even sending the ref to the monitor (which, in reality is the same thing) is inexplicable. Except when you remember they’re all mates whose main job is not to embarrass each other.

edit: on sober second thought. If the defender kicks at the ball and, instead gets the attacker because the ball was no longer there then they call that a penalty (Andy Robertson says Hi) . Isn’t this exactly equivalent? Saliba tries to head the ball - the Brighton player gets there first so all Saliba gets is a Brighton head.

I don’t think it’s a penalty in either case FWIW
 
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Jimy Hendrix

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Did Spurs really rest their starters for the League Cup semis? It’s being discussed a little on the post game.
Possibly to a certain extent, but in addition to their horrible injury issues and the fatigue the rest of the players have as a result there was apparently stomach flue running through the team, which was not really discussed on the broadcast.
 

teddykgb

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Just watched the replay (didn’t see it live). That was a ludicrous call - and in my experience unprecedented.

As pointed out VAR’s refusal to overturn the call - or even sending the ref to the monitor (which, in reality is the same thing) is inexplicable. Except when you remember they’re all mates whose main job is not to embarrass each other.

edit: on sober second thought. If the defender kicks at the ball and, instead gets the attacker because the ball was no longer there then they call that a penalty (Andy Robertson says Hi) . Isn’t this exactly equivalent? Saliba tries to head the ball - the Brighton player gets there first so all Saliba gets is a Brighton head.

I don’t think it’s a penalty in either case FWIW
Yes it's exactly that and it's disingenuous to compare to two players going for a header because this is more of a possession play. Even the extremely slight contact wouldn't necessarily save a defender with the ball on the ground so I don't see why it would here.

If anything im more sympathetic to this one as leagues have been rightly trying to be really careful about head injuries. One of the reasons why the extremely biased Arteta hasn't seen anything like this is because players are far more sensitive to slamming their heads into other players. These bouncing ball situations are always awkward and players who choose to try to take control of the situation risk stuff like this.

Having said all that is rather not watch a sport where this type of contact is a penalty and id love it if all the leagues made an effort to increase the amount of contact needed to call a penalty. I just think this is one of those cases where bad facts would make bad law
 

OCST

Sunny von Bulow
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For me a foul has to be one of:

playing the man instead of the ball - holding, tripping, hacking, elbowing, pushing off, coming in too high or too late with a tackle, etc.

-or-

using excessive force- that’s obviously a judgment call but “significantly more than the amount of force that is needed to make a play on the ball”

Saliba did neither imo.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Yes it's exactly that and it's disingenuous to compare to two players going for a header because this is more of a possession play. Even the extremely slight contact wouldn't necessarily save a defender with the ball on the ground so I don't see why it would here.

If anything im more sympathetic to this one as leagues have been rightly trying to be really careful about head injuries. One of the reasons why the extremely biased Arteta hasn't seen anything like this is because players are far more sensitive to slamming their heads into other players. These bouncing ball situations are always awkward and players who choose to try to take control of the situation risk stuff like this.

Having said all that is rather not watch a sport where this type of contact is a penalty and id love it if all the leagues made an effort to increase the amount of contact needed to call a penalty. I just think this is one of those cases where bad facts would make bad law
Oh come on. This wasn't a possession play at all. In no possible universe did Joao Pedro possess the ball prior to heading it nor attempt to possess the ball after heading it. Two players who didn't previously have the ball tried to redirect a ball with their heads.

Even if you thought it was a possession play, the analogy to "slight contact" situations fails as the general guideline in those situations is to still call a penalty only if contact is so slight as to not redirect the ball out of the potential possession/path of the attacker. In this case not only does Joao Pedro have no possibility to possess the ball (or intent in doing so) after his header but Saliba's deflection completely changes the trajectory of the ball by like 45 degrees. An analogous foot tackle scenario would be a last second deflection of a pass that changed the pass trajectory markedly so it would not go toward the intended recipient, prior to the tackler taking out the passer. That is never in a million years called a penalty on the ground.

A good rule of thumb is that if nobody has ever seen it called a penalty before in the history of professional soccer, it probably shouldn't be a penalty.
 
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teddykgb

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Oh come on. This wasn't a possession play at all. In no possible universe did Joao Pedro possess the ball prior to heading it nor attempt to possess the ball after heading it. Two players who didn't previously have the ball tried to redirect a ball with their heads.

A good rule of thumb is that if nobody has ever seen it called a penalty before in the history of professional soccer, it probably shouldn't be a penalty.
You're not impartial on this and this isn't going to be a productive conversation. If you're just going to rehash what your manager said post match like it is somehow controlling then there's really no point in this. Your player head butted a guy in the box on accident and had a penalty called on him. This isn't a tragedy. And Pedro was absolutely controlling a bouncing ball, this was not a cross that two players were attacking
 

fletcherpost

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Re: Liverpool v Man Utd

There's going to be a second safety meeting at midday UK time. (There was an earlier one at 9am.) As of writing match is planned to go ahead. But, the issue is the safety of fans travelling to and from stadium. (Pitch is fine.)

A postponement wouldn't shock me.

edit: Match to go ahead:

"Today's fixture against Manchester United will go ahead as planned," Liverpool said.
Manchester United confirmed it has "been deemed safe for fans to attend" the match.
An amber weather warning for snow and ice is in place for much of northern England.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c0lgd4lw576o
 
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67YAZ

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Oh, living dangerously. Could have been a DOGOSO. With a better touch, Wilson would have been free into the box.
 

67YAZ

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Ipswich do their thing - good counter, missed clearance, pounced on the opportunity.
 

67YAZ

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I think Harry has a case here.

Edit: the replay is even more damning.