Fournier to Celtics (old thread bumped)

Status
Not open for further replies.

NomarsFool

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 21, 2001
6,541
The thing that is disappointing for me, though, is that by using up the TPE, there's no more real hope for finding another pretty good player to pair with JB/JT after this season. Fournier could be resigned, I guess, but pretty good chance he's gone. So, we've used 4 second round picks (not too much, granted) to get a player that will definitely help them this season, but is probably gone after that. Maybe we get another TPE from trading Fournier in a S&T this summer, but that will also cost capital as well.

I still feel like the biggest hole on the team was replacing Hayward, which we still didn't do, so would have been thrilled if this had been paired with Aaron Gordon / John Collins / Harrison Barnes (to a lesser extent).
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
9,504
Toscana via Kyiv
The thing that is disappointing for me, though, is that by using up the TPE, there's no more real hope for finding another pretty good player to pair with JB/JT after this season. Fournier could be resigned, I guess, but pretty good chance he's gone. So, we've used 4 second round picks (not too much, granted) to get a player that will definitely help them this season, but is probably gone after that. Maybe we get another TPE from trading Fournier in a S&T this summer, but that will also cost capital as well.

I still feel like the biggest hole on the team was replacing Hayward, which we still didn't do, so would have been thrilled if this had been paired with Aaron Gordon / John Collins / Harrison Barnes (to a lesser extent).
This is simply not true. You can combine Smart and TT and filler and match almost anyone. There's no way to re-sign Smart if they acquire another guy, so you'd be dealing him for sure anyway at that point.

You can also do a 3-team Kemba deal, or trade Kemba into space for another TPE.

The best way to think of this deal is that they turned the expiring TPE into the depth to be able to make some guys expendable as salary matchers. Takes a lot of timing pressure off.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
15,598
The thing that is disappointing for me, though, is that by using up the TPE, there's no more real hope for finding another pretty good player to pair with JB/JT after this season. Fournier could be resigned, I guess, but pretty good chance he's gone. So, we've used 4 second round picks (not too much, granted) to get a player that will definitely help them this season, but is probably gone after that. Maybe we get another TPE from trading Fournier in a S&T this summer, but that will also cost capital as well.

I still feel like the biggest hole on the team was replacing Hayward, which we still didn't do, so would have been thrilled if this had been paired with Aaron Gordon / John Collins / Harrison Barnes (to a lesser extent).
Fournier is more likely to be resigned than you think.

There are options for getting a player within the remainder of the TPE. One issue they had is that if they acquire a player by S&T, they become hard capped, and so they will be sending salary out in any such trade anyway. Makes it harder to use the full $28.3M anyway.
 

Euclis20

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2004
5,380
Imaginationland
Semi Ojeleye even.

The mind is weird, I forgot Semih Erden was even a thing.
Funny that those are the only two Semi(h)s in NBA history, and both played for the Celtics. Only one other player even had Semi in their name and that was Jim Seminoff who retired over 70 years ago...but not before playing two seasons for the Celtics.
 

Dduncan6er

lurker
Apr 16, 2020
327
Springfield, MA
Realistically who were people expecting to be available this off season that the Celtics could use the TPE on? It seems some were just expecting a disgruntled star to drop out of the sky and right into Danny's arms.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
8,588
around the way
Funny that those are the only two Semi(h)s in NBA history, and both played for the Celtics. Only one other player even had Semi in their name and that was Jim Seminoff who retired over 70 years ago...but not before playing two seasons for the Celtics.
This is fantastic.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
Fournier could be resigned, I guess, but pretty good chance he's gone.
Why do you think this? He's going to re-sign in Boston. If he walks, he could always be used in a S&T in the offseason. Signing outright with another team, the 4 2nd round picks are pretty much nothing. It's not that hard to acquire 2nd round picks if you see a player you like. Teams give them away all the time. Sometimes teams give away first round picks to dump players like Kanter. The real loss would be the TPE, and we aren't even really sure how much value that has. It could just as easily expire. Teams could also hold Ainge hostage knowing the TPE is going to expire soon.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
9,504
Toscana via Kyiv
Why do you think this? He's going to re-sign in Boston. If he walks, he could always be used in a S&T in the offseason. Signing outright with another team, the 4 2nd round picks are pretty much nothing. It's not that hard to acquire 2nd round picks if you see a player you like. Teams give them away all the time. Sometimes teams give away first round picks to dump players like Kanter. The real loss would be the TPE, and we aren't even really sure how much value that has. It could just as easily expire. Teams could also hold Ainge hostage knowing the TPE is going to expire soon.
As I posted above, it's also important to keep in mind that getting Fournier so that you can trade other guys is a not-bad use of the TPE. The point about Ainge being held hostage in negotiations is also very important.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
Realistically who were people expecting to be available this off season that the Celtics could use the TPE on? It seems some were just expecting a disgruntled star to drop out of the sky and right into Danny's arms.
John Collins, Lonzo Ball, Lauri Markkanen, Malik Monk

RFA's that other teams have to match on or lose them for nothing at all. I'm guessing the max for Collins is probably more than the TPE.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
9,504
Toscana via Kyiv
John Collins, Lonzo Ball, Lauri Markkanen, Malik Monk

RFA's that other teams have to match on or lose them for nothing at all. I'm guessing the max for Collins is probably more than the TPE.
If the Celtics like and get Collins, it will probably be in a deal that sends Smart to Atlanta.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
11,601
Why do you think this? He's going to re-sign in Boston. If he walks, he could always be used in a S&T in the offseason.
He's going to reach an agreement with Indiana, but Pritchard is going to demand three first round picks and that Boston take back Jeremy Lamb, Ed Summer, and Kel Martin to make the numbers work for the Pacers.
 

shoelace

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 24, 2019
220
Why do you think this? He's going to re-sign in Boston. If he walks, he could always be used in a S&T in the offseason. Signing outright with another team, the 4 2nd round picks are pretty much nothing. It's not that hard to acquire 2nd round picks if you see a player you like. Teams give them away all the time. Sometimes teams give away first round picks to dump players like Kanter. The real loss would be the TPE, and we aren't even really sure how much value that has. It could just as easily expire. Teams could also hold Ainge hostage knowing the TPE is going to expire soon.
This is all exactly right, I think the TPE was always being overvalued as an asset by some fans, and Fournier is a good return for it. Trading Theis, who clearly the Celtics think is signing a multi year deal for minimally the MLE and maybe more, is an indication that they'd rather put that money toward retaining Fournier.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
28,352
John Collins, Lonzo Ball, Lauri Markkanen, Malik Monk

RFA's that other teams have to match on or lose them for nothing at all. I'm guessing the max for Collins is probably more than the TPE.
It isn't, but it's also impossible for the Celtics to make a max type S&T this offseason into the TPE. A S&T means being hard-capped, and we don't have the space under the hard cap so the Celtics would need to send out salary anyway. But beyond that.. it's really player based, the player has to force his way to you in that situation. Also, if you're doing a S&T it's pretty easy to get whoever is singing Fournier to loop it into a 3 way deal, happens every year.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
This is all exactly right, I think the TPE was always being overvalued as an asset by some fans, and Fournier is a good return for it. Trading Theis, who clearly the Celtics think is signing a multi year deal for minimally the MLE and maybe more, is an indication that they'd rather put that money toward retaining Fournier.
Trading Theis is also the C's giving a huge thumbs up to TL and TT. I made a post earlier about how the 3 headed monster would be playing significantly less minutes with the addition of Fournier and poof. good bye Theis.

Wagner is also a mildly interesting piece.
 

tbb345

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
4,400
Full trade is Fournier for 2 2nds and Jeff Teague. Teague will be waived by the Magic
 

shoelace

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 24, 2019
220
Trading Theis is also the C's giving a huge thumbs up to TL and TT. I made a post earlier about how the 3 headed monster would be playing significantly less minutes with the addition of Fournier and poof. good bye Theis.

Wagner is also a mildly interesting piece.
Agreed, Wagner hasn't really shown enough consistently in his career to demand much money, so if they like him as a developmental piece as the third center, it wouldn't surprise me if they try to sign him to a value two year deal or something like that this offseason. My understanding is that he is a UFA this summer. I suppose we have to see how everything shakes out as the trade is finalized, but I like what they did.
 

Humphrey

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2010
2,337
So they traded one German for another one?

Wonder if they ever traded a guy midseason who took the last shot of the previous game w/the game on the line?
 

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
25,693
My theory is also that Smart is a leader in the "do whatever it takes to win" guy and on the current roster, to Smart that means "they need my offense". This is not good. By acquiring Fournier they fill this need and so now do whatever it takes to win for Smart can be "defense/playmaker" again, and occasionally scoring when somebody is on the bench or dead. And the occasional three.
Makes sense. Smart is a good offensive player. Just not a very good shooter.
 

Strike4

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
2,920
Portland, Maine
I hated Teague too.
I did too! He was one of those players who you hated when he played against the Celtics because he always killed them. Then they signed him and I was like "awesome, now he'll kill other teams for us and make us better!" But then he just killed us while being on our team.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
43,158
I did too! He was one of those players who you hated when he played against the Celtics because he always killed them. Then they signed him and I was like "awesome, now he'll kill other teams for us and make us better!" But then he just killed us while being on our team.
It’s called a “Kyrie”...
 

NomarsFool

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 21, 2001
6,541
So, do we close with:

R Williams
Tatum
Brown
Fournier
Smart

? The part I’m still a little uncomfortable with is that I still see a lot of Semi/Grant minutes with this team. We replace Teague with Fournier and probably PP. So, that’s an upgrade.

What is unclear to me at this point is if they will still be able to get a ball handling shooter with size in the summer. If so, this move is great because they didn’t give up anything.
 

Koufax

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
5,595
They gave up Theis to make room for Fornier's salary. That's something.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
15,598
So, do we close with:

R Williams
Tatum
Brown
Fournier
Smart

? The part I’m still a little uncomfortable with is that I still see a lot of Semi/Grant minutes with this team. We replace Teague with Fournier and probably PP. So, that’s an upgrade.

What is unclear to me at this point is if they will still be able to get a ball handling shooter with size in the summer. If so, this move is great because they didn’t give up anything.
Why wouldn't the 6'7" Fournier replace Semi's and Grant's minutes?

Bigs:

RWill
TT
Wagner

Wings:

Tatum
Brown
Fournier
Semi/Grant

Backcourt:

Kemba
Smart
Pritchard

Deep Bench:

Tacko
Edwards
Waters
Nesmith (maybe gets into wing rotation if he develops)
Langford (needs to get healthy first)
 

DGreenwood

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 2, 2003
2,105
Seattle
They gave up Theis to make room for Fornier's salary. That's something.
They gave up Theis' $5 million but took back Wagner's and Kornet's combined $4.4 million. I'm having trouble seeing how the Celtics aren't currently over the luxury tax threshold.
 

Imbricus

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 26, 2017
4,043
So I read two "grade the trade"s on this deal and one gave the Celtics a C-, and the other a B+. I don't get it. We don't need second-round picks with all the guys on the roster now who need development time. So we get to try out Fournier for about 30 games to see whether he's a good fit for the future, and if so, resign him. He may not be great defensively, but he's fine on offense. Trade seems like a clear "A" to me.
 

ZMart100

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 15, 2008
2,686
They gave up Theis' $5 million but took back Wagner's and Kornet's combined $4.4 million. I'm having trouble seeing how the Celtics aren't currently over the luxury tax threshold.
Green's $1.5m went out in the deal too. So that's 6.5 out and 4.4 in with a reported additional 1.3 out in cash for 0.8 net. The Fournier for Teague is about 15.5 net loss and I think they were about 14.5 below the tax. I can't imagine they would go over the tax, so there must be about 200k I don't understand. I'm sure Zaren and Ainge have the complete math.
 

HowBoutDemSox

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 12, 2009
9,297
They gave up Theis' $5 million but took back Wagner's and Kornet's combined $4.4 million. I'm having trouble seeing how the Celtics aren't currently over the luxury tax threshold.
Yeah, Spotrac has the Celtics at $1,757,759 over the tax, but they still have Javonte on the books, if you take out his salary of $1,517,981, they're still $239,778 over the tax. They could cut and stretch Kornet (or anyone else, e.g. Edwards) and get under, though why take on Kornet just to keep his salary on the books for another couple years?
 

ZMart100

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 15, 2008
2,686
Yeah, Spotrac has the Celtics at $1,757,759 over the tax, but they still have Javonte on the books, if you take out his salary of $1,517,981, they're still $239,778 over the tax. They could cut and stretch Kornet (or anyone else, e.g. Edwards) and get under, though why take on Kornet just to keep his salary on the books for another couple years?
I don't think that's right. They can't stretch expiring contracts after Sept 1 and the current season of any stretched player with remaining years would still get paid out normally so there would be no benefit to the cap.
 

DGreenwood

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 2, 2003
2,105
Seattle
Green's $1.5m went out in the deal too. So that's 6.5 out and 4.4 in with a reported additional 1.3 out in cash for 0.8 net. The Fournier for Teague is about 15.5 net loss and I think they were about 14.5 below the tax. I can't imagine they would go over the tax, so there must be about 200k I don't understand. I'm sure Zaren and Ainge have the complete math.
Yeah, Spotrac has the Celtics at $1,757,759 over the tax, but they still have Javonte on the books, if you take out his salary of $1,517,981, they're still $239,778 over the tax. They could cut and stretch Kornet (or anyone else, e.g. Edwards) and get under, though why take on Kornet just to keep his salary on the books for another couple years?
If the Celtics are sending $1.3 million along with Green, doesn't that mean that $1.3 million of Green's $1.5 million is still going to count against our cap? I assumed that's why Spotrac had added Fournier, Wagner, and Kornet; removed Theis and Teague; but left Javonte Green (although it did strike me as weird that they wouldn't have moved Green to the "Dead Cap" section where Yabusele currently resides).

Edit: The best thing may be to just wait for the dust to settle. There's no way the Celtics are going to trigger the repeater tax a year early over $1.8 million, and there still seems to be talk about Ainge being active on the buyout market, so there may still be some cards for Ainge and Mike Zarren to play in order to shed salary.
 
Last edited:

Lazy vs Crazy

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
5,648
If the Celtics are sending $1.3 million along with Green, doesn't that mean that $1.3 million of Green's $1.5 million is still going to count against our cap? I assumed that's why Spotrac had added Fournier, Wagner, and Kornet; removed, Theis and Teague; but left Javonte Green (although it did strike me as weird that they wouldn't have moved Green to the "Dead Cap" section where Yabusele currently resides).

Edit: The best thing may be to just wait for the dust to settle. There's no way the Celtics are going to trigger the repeater tax a year early over $1.8 million, and there still seems to be talk about Ainge being active on the buyout market, so there may still be some cards for Ainge and Mike Zarren to play in order to shed salary.
NBA isn't like MLB. Money you pay another team doesn't count against the cap, but there's a limit to what you can pay out yearly to other teams.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.