Fournier to Celtics (old thread bumped)

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BaseballJones

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20ppg on a shit team, but yeah I agree. He's a excellent fit for what we need.
Right and I wouldn't expect him to score 20 here, obviously. But he's not a wildly inefficient player just scoring on tons of volume. Last two years, his eFG% is 56.0%. That's significantly better than Tatum (52.1%), and it's better than Harden (54.4%), Doncic (53.9%), Kawhi (54.2%), etc. Not saying he's as good as those guys, but he's not just a chucker on a bad team. He's a good player. He only takes 14.2 shots a game.
 

Light-Tower-Power

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Unless my prayers are answered and Danny ships Kemba out in the next couple hours, I am all in favor of starting Fournier over Smart. They need someone who can shoot playing alongside the Jays and Fournier is that.
 

Saints Rest

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Yeah, sometimes it's easier to reach agreement on one piece of a deal and lock in a price everyone is comfortable with before proceeding. Reduces moving parts. I imagine something like that is going on here, regardless of whether Gordon does end up in Boston.
Doesn't the TPE being part of the deal pretty much require their to be two separate deals: one with only Fournier being exchanged for TPE + draft picks; and then some other separate deal to craft the balance?
 

MetSox1

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Doesn't the TPE being part of the deal pretty much require their to be two separate deals: one with only Fournier being exchanged for TPE + draft picks; and then some other separate deal to craft the balance?
And you say they just made Marcus much more expendable?

Hmmm
 

Cesar Crespo

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20ppg on a shit team, but yeah I agree. He's a excellent fit for what we need.
An incredibly efficient 16-20 point scorer on a shit team.

He's pretty far down the list on my preferable outcomes but he definitely fits a team need and makes the C's better. They desperately needed another wing, some shooting and play making. He's also not completely hopeless creating his own shot. This year, only 71% of his 3's have been assisted which is insane, especially since he's at .388 for the year. 83.9% of his 3's have been assisted for his career and the 5 year average previous to this season was 85.2%.

He's also at a career high assist rate at 20.6%.

I hope people are ready for some mid range to long 2's too.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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How is this trade making Marcus Smart more expendable? To me it makes him more integral to this team's future success. They fixed some of their scoring woes and now they can use the virtuous tailwinds from less exertion offensively to better team defense. Getting rid of Smart kind of blows that up.

Evan Fournier is not a better basketball player than Marcus Smart.
 

the moops

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Gordon to Denver for Gary Harris, RJ Hampton, and a first, from Wojo
Great deal for DEN. Gary Harris has not been good and is paid 21 million next year. Hampton may be good down the road, but there was a reason he lasted until pick 24. Curious what the first is.
 

lovegtm

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Great deal for DEN. Gary Harris has not been good and is paid 21 million next year. Hampton may be good down the road, but there was a reason he lasted until pick 24. Curious what the first is.
Man, that really seems like a deal the Celtics could have topped with Smart+first(s). Not happy.
 

benhogan

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An incredibly efficient 16-20 point scorer on a shit team.

He's pretty far down the list on my preferable outcomes but he definitely fits a team need and makes the C's better. They desperately needed another wing, some shooting and play making. He's also not completely hopeless creating his own shot. This year, only 71% of his 3's have been assisted which is insane, especially since he's at .388 for the year. 83.9% of his 3's have been assisted for his career and the 5 year average previous to this season was 85.2%.

He's also at a career high assist rate at 20.6%.

I hope people are ready for some mid range to long 2's too.
He's hit over 53% of his corner 3s (on small volume) the last 2 seasons, so parking him in the corner should lead to more kick-outs from the paint
 

Cesar Crespo

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How is this trade making Marcus Smart more expendable? To me it makes him more integral to this team's future success. They fixed some of their scoring woes and now they can use the virtuous tailwinds from less exertion offensively to better team defense. Getting rid of Smart kind of blows that up.

Evan Fournier is not a better basketball player than Marcus Smart.
He isn't worse either.

I'm not against trading Smart but only if they are trading him for another 25-30 minute rotational player that they see as a better fit. I would have traded him straight up for Gordon but ymmv.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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He isn't worse either.

I'm not against trading Smart but only if they are trading him for another 25-30 minute rotational player that they see as a better fit. I would have traded him straight up for Gordon but ymmv.
He is worse and demonstrably so based on just about every metric out there. Perhaps there are NBA executives that think differently but I would be genuinely surprised if one would willingly trade Smart for Fournier straight up all else equal.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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He's a better player than 2021 Marcus Smart. Hopefully the old Marcus can be extracted from his protective layer of blubber.
2021 Marcus Smart has been injured and, at various times, the only consistent veteran they have had. I expect the daily fantasy crowd to redraft the Cs after each bad quarter but you are reacting to a very tiny sample size here which is remarkable.
 

Cesar Crespo

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He is worse and demonstrably so based on just about every metric out there. Perhaps there are NBA executives that think differently but I would be genuinely surprised if one would willingly trade Smart for Fournier straight up all else equal.
Smart is incredibly overrated in these parts and I like how everyone just assumes a return to form. Just like they assumed GWill and Smart would work their way into game shape as the season went along.

Do you think Marcus Smart will age well? On that note, he's only a year younger than Evan Fournier.

Smart's a perfectly fine basketball player but he's not some irreplaceable Messiah.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Smart is incredibly overrated in these parts and I like how everyone just assumes a return to form. Just like they assumed GWill and Smart would work their way into game shape as the season went along.

Do you think Marcus Smart will age well? On that note, he's only a year younger than Evan Fournier.

Smart's a perfectly fine basketball player but he's not some irreplaceable Messiah.
That is your opinion and I will not attempt to change it. Because people are already citing this year, which is kind of silly given the SSS nature of the data, I will simply say that over the entirety of their careers, Marcus Smart has been a much better player than Evan Fournier. That is an entirely supportable position. Beyond that, its all just opinions.
 

Cellar-Door

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That is your opinion and I will not attempt to change it. Because people are already citing this year, which is kind of silly given the SSS nature of the data, I will simply say that over the entirety of their careers, Marcus Smart has been a much better player than Evan Fournier. That is an entirely supportable position. Beyond that, its all just opinions.
Meh... it depends how you think Offense/Defense balance matters in the NBA. Fournier is a significantly better offensive player, Smart is a significantly better defender. If you think they are equally important, Smart's probably the better player. If you think offense matters more in the NBA (many do) then it's pretty debatable who the better player is.
 

nighthob

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Unless my prayers are answered and Danny ships Kemba out in the next couple hours, I am all in favor of starting Fournier over Smart. They need someone who can shoot playing alongside the Jays and Fournier is that.
They also desperately need someone that can create quality shots for others on the second unit, so Marcus going back to sixth man extraordinaire really helps the team.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Meh... it depends how you think Offense/Defense balance matters in the NBA. Fournier is a significantly better offensive player, Smart is a significantly better defender. If you think they are equally important, Smart's probably the better player. If you think offense matters more in the NBA (many do) then it's pretty debatable who the better player is.
Some would argue with that. I wouldn't. I think Smart's shooting is a huge hinderance and that he's closer to his career .319 mark from 3.
 

Cesar Crespo

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They also desperately need someone that can create quality shots for others on the second unit, so Marcus going back to sixth man extraordinaire really helps the team.
This is true anyway. In any world they traded Smart, they'd need to bring a playmaker back.

In my dream world, they trade Smart and acquire Lonzo. Not happening tho.
 

Strike4

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They also desperately need someone that can create quality shots for others on the second unit, so Marcus going back to sixth man extraordinaire really helps the team.
My theory is also that Smart is a leader in the "do whatever it takes to win" guy and on the current roster, to Smart that means "they need my offense". This is not good. By acquiring Fournier they fill this need and so now do whatever it takes to win for Smart can be "defense/playmaker" again, and occasionally scoring when somebody is on the bench or dead. And the occasional three.
 

reggiecleveland

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Big step up, legit bench wing that once in a while will go off an win a game by himself. This could really help seems like replacing the Allen Webster, Alferdo Aceves starts (Grant Semi, et al) with Jake Peavey. Sometimes an average o slightly above average vet is world of difference.

As for the Fournier/Smart debate they are similarly valuable players for opposite reasons meaning they should complement each other, and not effect the other's value or minutes.
 
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MetSox1

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Let me rephrase for those in the back:

I agree with @Saints Rest that this deal makes another deal more likely, not less.

Regardless of whether you like Fournier more or less than Smart, having both of them makes Smart, who previously had been the teams most tradeable commodity, more easy to deal.

Those two sentences could (should) be related to one another.

If they want to bring in a piece that helps now, they need to move something of value and create some space. They've potentially made that easier to do, especially if an opposing GM looks at Smart the way I looked at Maxim in my teens, or the way DBMH looks at Smart today.
 

Fishy1

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God, what a relief. Fournier soaking up 14 shots a game at his rates will be a real boon to the offense. Won't solve our defensive issues, but I'm hoping those will be addressed by the players and coaches -- we've had the personnel all along.

Hope he starts, too. Would much rather Smart ran with the second unit, harassing 2nd unit wings and guards. He can throw lobs to TL all day if he wants, just so long as he isn't taking stupid 3's when there's four better shooters on the floor.
 

lovegtm

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God, what a relief. Fournier soaking up 14 shots a game at his rates will be a real boon to the offense. Won't solve our defensive issues, but I'm hoping those will be addressed by the players and coaches -- we've had the personnel all along.

Hope he starts, too. Would much rather Smart ran with the second unit, harassing 2nd unit wings and guards. He can throw lobs to TL all day if he wants, just so long as he isn't taking stupid 3's when there's four better shooters on the floor.
Tatum and Brown having a lighter offensive load probably solves some defensive issues on its own.
 

Cesar Crespo

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God, what a relief. Fournier soaking up 14 shots a game at his rates will be a real boon to the offense. Won't solve our defensive issues, but I'm hoping those will be addressed by the players and coaches -- we've had the personnel all along.

Hope he starts, too. Would much rather Smart ran with the second unit, harassing 2nd unit wings and guards. He can throw lobs to TL all day if he wants, just so long as he isn't taking stupid 3's when there's four better shooters on the floor.
There's almost always going to be 2-3 better shooters than Smart on the court, 2nd unit or not. I'd worry Smart would be even more willing to launch misguided shots if he's playing alongside 2nd unit players instead of 1st. Of course, our 2nd unit sucks so a misguided Marcus shot isn't the worst outcome.

Well, our 2nd unit did suck. It should be a bit better after today. That's especially true if they can turn Theis or TT into a PG with some size or another wing.
 

nighthob

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My theory is also that Smart is a leader in the "do whatever it takes to win" guy and on the current roster, to Smart that means "they need my offense". This is not good. By acquiring Fournier they fill this need and so now do whatever it takes to win for Smart can be "defense/playmaker" again, and occasionally scoring when somebody is on the bench or dead. And the occasional three.
Yeah, that's been Smart for his career. The biggest issue with Gordo leaving was that Kemba's recovery has been sporadic (at best) and too much of the offensive burden has fallen on the JayCrew, which has hurt the team defensively. Having Fournier to provide offense makes them better on both sides of the ball.
 

Jimbodandy

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Big step up, legit bench wing that once in a while will go off an win a game by himself. This could really help seems like replacing the Allen Webster, Alferdo Aceves starts (Grant Semi, et al) with Jake Peavey. Sometimes an average o slightly above average vet is world of difference.

As for the Fournier/Smart debate they are similarly valuable players for opposite reasons meaning they should complement each other, and not effect the other's value or minutes.
Man, great Jake Peavey reference. Lot of folks forget how he stopped a freefall in that rotation for a few weeks. That shit mattered.

Agreed on Fournier and Smart as well. They're in the same tier of player.

Team needed to get more experienced and competent, especially at wing. Happy with this.

Hope Danny has another card to play in consolidating a few nickels into a dime.

Also glad that we didn't trade Smart for Gordon. Still don't understand why people here think that was a good idea.
 

TripleOT

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It looks like Ainge just replaced Hayward with a much cheaper, slightly less better all around player in Fournier, without giving up any assets (many on this board don’t perceive Nesmith and Romeo as assets, but either Ainge does, or the other GMs don’t)

Fournier gets more FTs per game, 4.7, than any Celtics, with the Jays at 4.6. That will help, especially in the fourth quarter. There’s not much to dislike about this move. Ownership is willing to invest in this year’s team to try to make a run. Hopefully, Ainge can clear out more than just Javonte so the Cs can add a piece in the buyout market
 

nighthob

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Also glad that we didn't trade Smart for Gordon. Still don't understand why people here think that was a good idea.
People here have been fantasizing about trading Marcus since about five minutes after he was drafted. In that sense, at least, Aaron Nesmith is the new Marcus. ;)
 

AimingForYoko

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Gave up nothing so I'm good. Don't think the organizaton-wide philosophy of letting Marcus shoot whatever the hell he wants stops bc of Never Google. The apocalypse wouldnt stop that so I've stopped hoping.

Don't really think the team is worth a rental this year but I'd be interested to see if he re-signs.
 

The Gray Eagle

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Great move. If adding a scoring wing doesn't get this crappy season straightened out, then no one else they could bring in would either.
I really hope they don't give up any more assets now. See what Fournier adds, then reassess the entire team at the end of the season.
 

Lazy vs Crazy

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So since this uses most of the TPE, you kind of have to roll the costs of the two into one. It's really more like 4 2nds here, looking at it that way.
Well, they have to do something to clear a spot for Fournier.
This also puts them just barely into the tax so I'm sure they want to trade someone instead of releasing them.
 
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lovegtm

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I'm sure now that the Celtics have him he'll get Fournier gangrene or something, but Never Google is the exact type of guy the Celtics needed if the Js are going to be taking up a lot of the salary cap. NBA-average player who's a very strong shooter, and who is comfortable attacking off the dribble when the ball comes to him.

Obviously I would have preferred to dump Kemba and keep Hayward as a much, much better version of Fournier, but that wasn't an option.

Now you re-sign him on a 4/60 type deal that is fairly easy to move if you ever need to, and start looking for summer S&T or trade targets with the matching salaries the Celtics have. I'd be interested in targeting someone like Ball in a S&T with NO, if the Celtics can move Kemba's salary.
 

BigSoxFan

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I'm sure now that the Celtics have him he'll get Fournier gangrene or something, but Never Google is the exact type of guy the Celtics needed if the Js are going to be taking up a lot of the salary cap. NBA-average player who's a very strong shooter, and who is comfortable attacking off the dribble when the ball comes to him.

Obviously I would have preferred to dump Kemba and keep Hayward as a much, much better version of Fournier, but that wasn't an option.

Now you re-sign him on a 4/60 type deal that is fairly easy to move if you ever need to, and start looking for summer S&T or trade targets with the matching salaries the Celtics have. I'd be interested in targeting someone like Ball in a S&T with NO, if the Celtics can move Kemba's salary.
Yup. We'll see how the rest of the season goes but I think Ainge will be busy this summer trying to find a legit 3rd banana. And pretty much everyone will be available outside of Tatum and probably Jaylen.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I would have talked myself into almost anyone the C's acquired. It was clear they needed another player and I don't think any difference between Evan Fournier and Gordon, Barnes, Smart, or whoever else was named is that significant. The difference between Evan Fournier and Semih Erden is colossal.
 

lovegtm

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I would have talked myself into almost anyone the C's acquired. It was clear they needed another player and I don't think any difference between Evan Fournier and Gordon, Barnes, Smart, or whoever else was named is that significant. The difference between Evan Fournier and Semih Erden is colossal.
Yeah, the need was clear, the price was good, and they have plenty of salary to match in offseason deals. I'm a fan.

I don't think it's even a matter of talking yourself into it--anyone was going to be better than Semi.
 
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