Formula 1 2025: Bye Lando ft. (Don't Bottle It Lando)

[Silverdude2167]

The 25 Season starts tomorrow in Australia.

McLaren look to clearly have the fastest car and two top drivers.
Ferrari has potential and a new #2 driver...
Mercedes might be good but with driver questions.
Red Bull has Max and a car that just placed 3rd and 18th in qualifying (Someone check that wasn't Checo in a Lawson mask).

The season should be McLaren's and Lando's to lose, but both have shown the ability to do that in the past so maybe it will be interesting.
From Aus qualifying they picked up 4 tenths on Max in the final sector. I don't know enough about the track to know what that means, but it was tight for the first two sectors so they must have a massive advantage on that aspect of the course.

FIA also will now fine/suspend you for swearing and Max is a few penalty points away from a race ban. Look for an intentional crash or cuss around the birth of his first biological child.

Also, it might rain a lot tomorrow, which would be a great way to start the season. Let's Go!

 

[kfoss99]

It's looking like a much better year to be a Williams fan.

Sainz is good and likeable. Both Albon and Sainz qualified in the top 10.

The swearing rule seems reasonable if it was 30 or 40 years ago. I don't understand it now; it seems like a power play. But maybe it matters in some global media markets.

 

[Verryfunny2]

his first biological child

What?

 

[Silverdude2167]

What?

His GF is pregnant and due in April according to the internet, yet he is already a bonus dad.

I was trying to be fair to his bonus dad status, hope "biological child" isn't insensitive.

 

[Verryfunny2]

His GF is pregnant and due in April according to the internet, yet he is already a bonus dad.

I was trying to be fair to his bonus dad status, hope "biological child" isn't insensitive.

Ah ok, no worries. Did not know that, a friend of mine lives in the same flat, never heard him about it

 

[Silverdude2167]

Well that was fun, but unless we have lots of rain this season it looks like it will be a fight for 3rd most of the time.

 

[tmracht]

Well that was fun, but unless we have lots of rain this season it looks like it will be a fight for 3rd most of the time.

Ferrari gonna Ferrari I guess.

 

[lovegtm]

Well that was fun, but unless we have lots of rain this season it looks like it will be a fight for 3rd most of the time.

Yeah but we thought the same at the start of last year when Checo was grabbing routine top-5s and Max was unstoppable.

The ruleset is pretty well-known, so I'd expect some convergence as the year goes on.

 

[burstnbloom]

The rain made it so we didn't really learn all that much today, but I think the Red Bull is close. I think a close 3rd. updates changed everything last season, I expect something similar this season. On to China.

 

[Silverdude2167]

Lawson might not make it 5 races if he keeps performing like this.

 

[Silverdude2167]

More happened in the post race with 3 DSQs than happened in the race.

 

[lovegtm]

Lawson might not make it 5 races if he keeps performing like this.

Seems like there's a LOT of noise that he could get replaced in Suzuka by Yuki. He's been completely awful.

Red Bull are screwing themselves quite hard: they've evolved into this weird Galapagos car that only Max can drive, but now it's not fast even for him. So they're ending up with this shit car that's not even as fast as the Racing Bull for normal drivers, and they're pissing off Max with the car, to the point where he might leave after this year.

Going to be a fun/dramatic season....

 

[tmracht]

Well there is never a lack of drama in F1, Ferrari can't get out of their own way, Red Bull is in turmoil with no second point drivers since Qatar. Doohan and Hadjar squabbling, Bearman and Lawson chirping and somehow Ocon is scoring points.

 

[reggiecleveland]

Lawson might not make it 5 races if he keeps performing like this.

Some friends are in Mexico and say the media there is pushing the idea Red Bull makes a car only Max can drive

 

[kfoss99]

Williams is fourth in points!

That damn Louis Voitton logo looks like the Lakers "L."

 

[Silverdude2167]

Some friends are in Mexico and say the media there is pushing the idea Red Bull makes a car only Max can drive

Yeah I think that is true and @lovegtm outlined it well above. The car is built for Max and only Max and it will probably screw Red Bull sooner than later.

 

[lovegtm]

Some friends are in Mexico and say the media there is pushing the idea Red Bull makes a car only Max can drive

Yup, although, from what I understand, it's slightly more subtle than that.

Max loves the front end to be super responsive, and constantly pushes engineers to go that direction.

That is theoretically the optimal aero balance, so it initially gives good results, even if it's hard for anyone except Max to drive that way (since he's a freak of nature/training).

However, over time, it takes the team down a path that can be a dead end, where Max isn't happy with the car, AND the other driver is screwed even earlier on.

The title of this video is hyperbolic, but it has really good explanations of the phenomenon, starting around the 2:10 mark:

View: https://youtu.be/4LDxaM9XWvo?si=8qs3jW2TyRGlF3-C&t=131

 

[lovegtm]

Red Bull aren't stupid; they know about this. This is why you see them do things like break parc fermé for Lawson before today's race, to give him a different setup, and probably try to make things less Max-y. But it's pretty baked into the car's development at this point, and my impression is that "undoing" those changes is like unbreaking a glass, or refactoring spaghetti code -- there are too many variables, and you can only go forward.

 

[kfoss99]

Lawson already out at Red Bull. Tsunoda in for the Japan Gran Prix.

 

[Silverdude2167]

Max is good, McLaren is stupid, and Lando lost any chance at the race win by being a fool, leaving the pit lane.

 

[kfoss99]

Nice win, for your boy, Silverdude. Congrats.

More points for Williams. Can Sainz improve enough to help out Albon?

 

[Silverdude2167]

Nice win, for your boy, Silverdude. Congrats.

More points for Williams. Can Sainz improve enough to help out Albon?

Sainz has been a disappointment so far, which is sad to see because I thought Ferrari made a mistake replacing him with LH.

 

[Silverdude2167]

This is a very interesting grid, Oscar might be the more likely Champion than Lando.

 

[Silverdude2167]

Fun race, McLaren should run away with both championships, but the fact that they have two good drivers might be a problem for the drivers championship.

Landon or Oscar should be 20+ points clear by now and instead is only 8 on Max and 14 on George.

Even if Red Bull doesn't figure it out, Merc and Ferrari are not that far off. If one of the McLaren drivers doesn't build a cushion while they have the best car this is anyone's game. Going to be a fun year.

 

[lovegtm]

Fun race, McLaren should run away with both championships, but the fact that they have two good drivers might be a problem for the drivers championship.

Landon or Oscar should be 20+ points clear by now and instead is only 8 on Max and 14 on George.

Even if Red Bull doesn't figure it out, Merc and Ferrari are not that far off. If one of the McLaren drivers doesn't build a cushion while they have the best car this is anyone's game. Going to be a fun year.

Have they really been costing each other points though?

Oscar would have a ton more if he hadn't run off in Melbourne, and Lando has now fucked up 3 qualis in a row.

Even in China, Lando probably doesn't get into 2nd off the line if Russell has pole, and is focused on holding off Lando instead of passing Oscar.

tldr; most of McLaren's wounds so far are self-inflicted, or the result of brilliant Max driving, rather than the 2 drivers thing.

 

[kfoss99]

Does anyone have recommendations for F1 podcasts or written recaps?

Defector usually has a pretty good written recap, but it's not always timely posted.

 

[Silverdude2167]

Does anyone have recommendations for F1 podcasts or written recaps?

Defector usually has a pretty good written recap, but it's not always timely posted.

I like P1 with Matt & Tommy, but they are more fans with a podcast and a fairly big following—500k+. They put out content regularly, but you are not going to get any actual insights from them.

 

[cgori]

I am not a big podcasts guy but Peter Windsor does have one, and I really think he was (and is) among the best F1 journalists (I used to read his writing semi-regularly, and he used to be on TV ~15-20 years ago).

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE-K0U4HP6c
is his Bahrain recap.

 

[ernieshore]

The BBC’s Chequered Flag podcast was a solid preview and recap podcast a couple/few years ago at least.

 

[Chainsaw318]

Shift F1 is the show that got me into F1. Its predecessor, actually. It’s a causal show, but they do good previews of the tracks and recaps of the races.

 

[ObstructedView]

The Ringer's F1 podcast is usually a pretty good listen, at least for someone like me who's a relative newcomer to the sport. It's co-hosted by a young-ish American semi-neophyte (who admits to having gotten into F1 via Netflix's Drive to Survive, like me and I assume many others on this side of the pond) and a middle-aged Brit who plays the role of the quasi-curmudgeon and technical expert as an electrical engineer, lifetime fan and sim racer.

 

[tmracht]

Oh Landoh!

 

[lovegtm]

This thread title jinxed Lando pretty hard.

Would be amazing if McLaren dropped him to pair Piastri with Max. Not happening, but.....

 

[Silverdude2167]

Harsh penalty on Max, I feel (says the fan), that ruined the race for the fans.

They were equal at the apex, or Max was slightly ahead. Max could have gone old school Max and refused to give up the position and caused a crash, instead, he bails out and is given a 5-second penalty that lets McLaren get fresh air in the best car.

It is probably the right call by the rule book, but barely so, and I think it ruined the race.

 

[JBill]

As a very causal fan, I would love to see it come down to Max vs McLaren at the end. Oscar and Max both obviously incredibly talented drivers, but personality wise it’s fun to contrast him with temperamental Max. Oscar at his most excited sounds comatose.

 

[Average Reds]

Harsh penalty on Max, I feel (says the fan), that ruined the race for the fans.

They were equal at the apex, or Max was slightly ahead. Max could have gone old school Max and refused to give up the position and caused a crash, instead, he bails out and is given a 5-second penalty that lets McLaren get fresh air in the best car.

It is probably the right call by the rule book, but barely so, and I think it ruined the race.

As the announcers said at the time, Verstappen is the master of manipulating the rules to always make him out as the victim. It didn’t work today and he got exactly what he deserved.

Max is an incredibly talented driver, but he’s a petulant asshole and I cannot root for him.

 

[kfoss99]

Looks like Sainz had a good race. Points for both Williams! Rooting for them must be similar to being a Pistons fan. The teams had glory days, then awful, and now it's exciting just to be relevant and in the mix.

 

[mikeot]

I’m predicting Max will drive for Aston Martin next season: they have RB’s former genius designer and will be using Honda engines exclusively, just as the new F1 regulations commence.

 

[ObstructedView]

As the announcers said at the time, Verstappen is the master of manipulating the rules to always make him out as the victim. It didn’t work today and he got exactly what he deserved.

Max is an incredibly talented driver, but he’s a petulant asshole and I cannot root for him.

Spot on. I respect the skill and killer instinct, but he’s pulled a lot of this BS - and the way Red Bull works the refs over radio (constant spin of incidents and tattling on opponents) has gotten old.

 

[Silverdude2167]

Max is an incredibly talented driver, but he’s a petulant asshole and I cannot root for him.

Spot on. I respect the skill and killer instinct, but he’s pulled a lot of this BS - and the way Red Bull works the refs over radio (constant spin of incidents and tattling on opponents) has gotten old.

So to be clear, you think Lando is petulant, and McClearn works the radios, yes? Norris jumped on the radio when he drove onto the grass in Japan to complain about being forced onto the grass.

How about George and his favorite line, "He turned in on me"?

Every driver complains and calls out the other drivers, I am not sure why people think it is only Max.

Max and Red Bull are no different than any other team on the grid, but Drive to Survive (for example, using different post-race footage to make it look like Max was mad that Lando won in Miami) and the British media have had it out for him the past few years.

 

[cgori]

Schumacher was basically the same, and I couldn't root for him either - clearly very talented but worked the rules, more so than the rest. Mid-period Seb too, though late-period Seb was pretty great when his IDGAF really manifested.

I don't watch DtS, at least not since the first season just to see what it was about. The British media is jingoistic when it comes to F1 (both drivers and teams), and newsflash: the sky is blue. The radio snippets we hear on the broadcasts come directly from F1/FOM/Liberty Media (or some combination of those), so any spin we perceive are from that trio - certainly the Sky commentators will have a particular spin on what we hear, but the raw radio broadcast (and any clipping/cutting done) is from F1.

We're slightly mis-served as Americans with ESPN importing the Sky coverage package wholesale (RIP Speedvision), but on the flip side I'm so glad we won't have to suffer through American coverage fawning all over Cadillac next year, that would have been intolerable.

(I have watched Germany telecasts of F1 in Germany with bilingual/German-speaking friends. The German telecasts are obsessed with the German drivers, in a similarly nationalistic way to the Sky coverage of the British drivers. My friends eventually gave up and found a way to VPN the US coverage, back in the NBCSN days, because it was less egregiously biased.)

 

[Average Reds]

So to be clear, you think Lando is petulant, and McClearn works the radios, yes? Norris jumped on the radio when he drove onto the grass in Japan to complain about being forced onto the grass.

How about George and his favorite line, "He turned in on me"?

Every driver complains and calls out the other drivers, I am not sure why people think it is only Max.

Max and Red Bull are no different than any other team on the grid, but Drive to Survive (for example, using different post-race footage to make it look like Max was mad that Lando won in Miami) and the British media have had it out for him the past few years.

I haven’t watched Drive to Survive in years and am well aware that the radio transmissions we get are heavily edited versions of reality. I also don’t quite get your need to play “whatabout?” to defend Verstappen at all costs.

His track record in terms of his actions over the course of his career is quite clear. If, for whatever reason, you choose to turn a blind eye, that’s on you.

 

[Silverdude2167]

I haven’t watched Drive to Survive in years and am well aware that the radio transmissions we get are heavily edited versions of reality. I also don’t quite get your need to play “whatabout?” to defend Verstappen at all costs.

His track record in terms of his actions over the course of his career is quite clear. If, for whatever reason, you choose to turn a blind eye, that’s on you.

I guess I don't understand what you mean by petulant than. If you don't like his driving, sure, but I'm not sure you can apply the term petulant to it.

 

[teddykgb]

He's constantly pushing the boundaries and whining about consequences. Petulant is about the perfect word to describe him. He's an incredible driver but he doesn't handle criticism, second guessing, rules applications, or anything of the like well

 

[Average Reds]

He's constantly pushing the boundaries and whining about consequences. Petulant is about the perfect word to describe him. He's an incredible driver but he doesn't handle criticism, second guessing, rules applications, or anything of the like well

And here’s the thing - I get it. These guys are the best in the world at an incredibly difficult, stressful and dangerous job. And Max is perhaps the best of the best. It would be astonishing if he wasn’t an egomaniacal tool.

The problem with Max (in my eyes) is the sense of unbridled entitlement. He drives very similarly to Ayrton Senna, who never saw a gap he wouldn’t try to exploit. However, he complains bitterly when others do the same and demands permission to bend the rules at his discretion to o fend off competitive challenges.

It’s incredibly tiresome to watch/hear. As is the willful blindness of his cult followers who take umbrage at any suggestion that Max isn’t the victim in the endless controversies he stirs up.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

He's an incredibly unlikeable guy, but this is kind of reminding me of guys in high school whose faces would turn reddish purple when complaining about the various heel-of-the-month in wrestling.

This is frog-scorpion stuff. Max's thing is that he doesn't give up the lead and forces the stewards to make decisions. I respect that, so long as he doesn't endanger other drivers. He's completely consistent on this, and the whole shtick requires the indignation act to go along side.

It's weird the extent to which it seems to get personal. None of us has any idea of his actual personality as a human being, only the racer part. I know social media makes that confusing, but I always have to squint a bit at these conversations.

 

[Average Reds]

He's an incredibly unlikeable guy, but this is kind of reminding me of guys in high school whose faces would turn reddish purple when complaining about the various heel-of-the-month in wrestling.

This is frog-scorpion stuff. Max's thing is that he doesn't give up the lead and forces the stewards to make decisions. I respect that, so long as he doesn't endanger other drivers. He's completely consistent, and the whole shtick requires the indignation act to go along side.

It's weird the extent to which it seems to get personal. None of us has any idea of his actual personality as a human being, only the racer part. I know social media makes that confusing, but I always have to squint a bit at these conversations.

I’ll ignore the petty insult and just say that I’ve followed Formula 1 for more than 50 years and have a pretty keen understanding of how the behavior (or complaints) of teams and drivers are geared towards manipulating F1 officials, Stewards, Race Directors, and others who can influence the outcome of any given race or season.

In my time following the sport, I’ve come to accept (though I hate it) that there are times where the single most important factor that drives F1 is not the results on track, but the internal politics of the sport. And with all that as background, I have to tell you I just don’t buy the notion that Max’s behavior is just shtick.

Back in 2021 at Abu Dhabi, Red Bull played the political game to perfection by lobbying Michael Masi (the race director) in real time to ignore the clear rules relating to a safety car restart because it would be better for fans. Masi’s action gift-wrapped Max his first championship. From that moment on, Max has acted as if he’s entitled to have his own personal set of rules.

Now, that belief has nothing to do with any sort of dug-in hatred of Verstappen. I think he may very well be the best driver of all time, and it’s a shame that he isn’t content to allow his almost unimaginable skills speak for him. Instead, he has to be constantly playing the political game.

That may be the smart play. It’s just not something I enjoy as a fan.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

I actually wasn't trying to be insulting -- though I often fail. I was aiming for tongue in cheek. People love wrestling.

I think we agree that Formula 1 has established the rules of the road that allows the driver behavior and gamesmanship that currently dominates. They are like the NFL on steroids with respect to what drives them -- it's a feature not a bug as far as they are concerned. And in that environment, Max does what he needs to do. And, yes, it's repulsive. Because he's very good at it. You might be right that when he takes off the mask in his away from the track time, he's still a heel. I don't know. I guess, right or wrong, it doesn't matter. I stand by the assertion that many in this thread (and, my post wasn't directed only at you) really do seem to be getting caught up exactly in the WWE aspects of the sport.

 

[Silverdude2167]

He's constantly pushing the boundaries and whining about consequences. Petulant is about the perfect word to describe him. He's an incredible driver but he doesn't handle criticism, second guessing, rules applications, or anything of the like well

This is fair, thanks for clarifying.

Edit:deleted the part that is just going in a circle.

 

[Average Reds]

I actually wasn't trying to be insulting -- though I often fail. I was aiming for tongue in cheek. People love wrestling.

I think we agree that Formula 1 has established the rules of the road that allows the driver behavior and gamesmanship that currently dominates. They are like the NFL on steroids with respect to what drives them -- it's a feature not a bug as far as they are concerned. And in that environment, Max does what he needs to do. And, yes, it's repulsive. Because he's very good at it. You might be right that when he takes off the mask in his away from the track time, he's still a heel. I don't know. I guess, right or wrong, it doesn't matter. I stand by the assertion that many in this thread (and, my post wasn't directed only at you) really do seem to be getting caught up exactly in the WWE aspects of the sport.

So, it seems clear to me that we were talking past each other. (Or, perhaps, that I was being a rock head and not getting it.) Because I agree with everything here, especially the reference to the NFL, which I watch despite having nothing but disdain for the gamesmanship and the politics of how the league is run.

I also think I misunderstood what you meant by Verstappen’s “shtick.” I interpreted that as meaning that his persona was meant to entertain (in a WWE way) rather than to influence the outcome. Regardless, I agree that we know nothing about out what kind of person he is off the track.