On our dime too.Pablo Sandoval pitched a scoreless 9th in a 15-6 loss today.
Josh Reddick, Travis Shaw, Margot(some day?), Pablo (future All star reliever) , Bartolo Colon, Victor MartinezFeels like the weakest crop of Former Red Sox Allstars in a long while. Sure I’m missing some obvious names, but not much comes to mind beyond Lowrie, Rizzo, Cespedes, Gonzalez, Lester, Miller and longtime mainstay Adrian Beltre.
What was the name of that dude we traded Sale for again?Josh Reddick, Travis Shaw, Margot(some day?), Pablo (future All star reliever) , Bartolo Colon, Victor Martinez
Yeah, not much, especially pitching.
Yes, Moncada has started hitting, just from what I see on highlights, and occasionally plays well in the field.https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/moncayo01.shtmlWhat was the name of that dude we traded Sale for again?
Oh, I'm not saying it was a bad trade, but he's a conspicuously performing former Sox.Yes, Moncada has started hitting, just from what I see on highlights, and occasionally plays well in the field.https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/moncayo01.shtml
He's definitely improving, but Sale is Sale!
Funny, when I think of the Sale trade I think of Michael Kopech, who also has a bright future ahead. I am hoping to see him in AAA but I'm a bit dubious he'll still be in the minors when Charlotte comes to Pawtucket at the end of July.Yes, Moncada has started hitting, just from what I see on highlights, and occasionally plays well in the field.https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/moncayo01.shtml
He's definitely improving, but Sale is Sale!
Buchholz has two World Series rings, two All Star appearances and a no-hitter. But man, he was not a lot of fun to have on this team.Old friend Clay Buchholz is pitching for Arizona today. Thru 5 innings, he's given up 1 hit, 1 walk, and struck out 2. 1-0 lead on the Mets.
I looked up his stats, batting .237 with a satanic .666 OPS. I guess the Giants are getting what they paid for.For those who missed it, Panda played second yesterday for the Giants. He made a nice play and turned a DP. He is a really fun guy to have around when you're not paying him $18mm per.
I thought Margot would adjust to the league quickly and it looked like I was right last year but he's been a train wreck this season. He has a ton of potential. I thought he was always underrated as a prospect because he was in the stacked Redsox farm system, but I thought he'd develop into a 110-120 OPS+ hitter at the CF position. He is still only 23 so time is on his side but this year is bad.In San Diego, Manuel Margot is hitting right around .200 with no power.
Carlos Asuaje (2b) lost his starting job and was sent back to the minors a little over a week ago.
"Starting to"?Travis Shaw playing really really well so far and isn't a FA until 2022. Thornburg for Shaw is starting to look like one of the worst Red Sox trades in years.
201 games, .858 OPS, at least average defense. Plus, these are his prime production years - he'll be 32 in 2022.Travis Shaw playing really really well so far and isn't a FA until 2022. Thornburg for Shaw is starting to look like one of the worst Red Sox trades in years.
edit: yes, sorry, "definitely one of the worst" is probably more accurate haha
Depends how long Shaw keeps it up for. He strikes me as a guy who won't age well a la Kevin Youkilis but Youkilis was still productive up until age 32. Shaw is 28.201 games, .858 OPS, at least average defense. Plus, these are his prime production years - he'll be 32 in 2022.
Worse than Suppan/Lyons for Sanchez/Gonzalez? Maybe.
Looks like Clay is going on one of his splendid half-season runs before his body inevitably falls apart.
Well there's also the Thornburg side of the deal. Value 0 - not a single pitch yet.Depends how long Shaw keeps it up for. He strikes me as a guy who won't age well a la Kevin Youkilis but Youkilis was still productive up until age 32. Shaw is 28.
If you go by WAR, he's actually an MVP candidate in the early going this year. dWAR loves him at 3b this year, although it loves him every year.
That's not really true at all. There are a lot of people who have written about Andersen's contributions to the 1990 Boston Red Sox and many of them say that he had little to no influence on the Red Sox' chances at all. In his book, The Big Book of Baseball Blunders (which is a really good read), Rob Neyer goes through the month of September 1990--in particular the games that Andersen played--and has come to the conclusion that the Sox probably would have won the AL East without him.Bagwell/Anderson gets thrown out there a lot as the worst modern trade for the Sox, but while bad, people forget that Anderson significantly contributed and Bagwell's entire career wasn't irrevocably controlled by the Sox.
Anderson came over on Sept. 2, 1990. The Sox were 6.5 games ahead of Toronto and looking at the post season. They squeaked into their post season berth one game ahead of Toronto on Oct. 2. Anderson appeared in 15 games that final month and only gave up 3 runs. So it's not a stretch to say that trade cemented a post season berth.
This is not accurate. They signed Sandoval (and Hanley) in the offseason of 14/15, long before Shaw was traded and before he made his ML debut. Hell, I'm pretty sure they didn't even move Shaw from 1b to 3b until 2015. The fact they started Shaw over Sandoval at 3b was actually a really big story around here too. They traded Shaw because they believed his 2nd half performance of 2016 was more of what to expect, and were wrong.The Shaw/Thronburg trade looks terrible not only for the fact that Thornurg has not thrown a single pitch for the Sox, but also because they then signed Panda, and later had to promote Devers too early. With Shaw holding the position they can either trade him at a higher value this year at the deadline (or may DDski trades Devers) or this offseason. Or maybe move Devers to 1B.
Of course, Thorburg looked like a dominant reliever and passed a physical. He did not contribute because of an injury, not because he was a complete failure like say, Eric Gagne.
Well, I stand corrected. I thought I had the dates right.This is not accurate. They signed Sandoval (and Hanley) in the offseason of 14/15, long before Shaw was traded and before he made his ML debut. Hell, I'm pretty sure they didn't even move Shaw from 1b to 3b until 2015. The fact they started Shaw over Sandoval at 3b was actually a really big story around here too. They traded Shaw because they believed his 2nd half performance of 2016 was more of what to expect, and were wrong.
I don't think the Shaw trade is close to worst trade ever, but I don't think it's far off from being worse than the Freddy Sanchez one, and another season or two of this type of production makes the Shaw trade worse. At least if you would prefer the dollar bill over 2 players worth 70 cents or w/e. The Sanchez trade had some shenanigans attached to it too, though I don't recall the specifics.Well there's also the Thornburg side of the deal. Value 0 - not a single pitch yet.
Bagwell/Anderson gets thrown out there a lot as the worst modern trade for the Sox, but while bad, people forget that Anderson significantly contributed and Bagwell's entire career wasn't irrevocably controlled by the Sox.
Anderson came over on Sept. 2, 1990. The Sox were 6.5 games ahead of Toronto and looking at the post season. They squeaked into their post season berth one game ahead of Toronto on Oct. 2. Anderson appeared in 15 games that final month and only gave up 3 runs. So it's not a stretch to say that trade cemented a post season berth.
Anderson provided 22 innings of quality relief in the final month. All other things being equal, the Sox won the division by a single game.That's not really true at all. There are a lot of people who have written about Andersen's contributions to the 1990 Boston Red Sox and many of them say that he had little to no influence on the Red Sox' chances at all. In his book, The Big Book of Baseball Blunders (which is a really good read), Rob Neyer goes through the month of September 1990--in particular the games that Andersen played--and has come to the conclusion that the Sox probably would have won the AL East without him.
You should check it out.
Or, to put it in more favorable terms:You use the information available to you at the time. Shaw had really (IIRC) had only a small sample size of playing time (late 2015, first few months of 2016) that indicated he was anything more than a replacement level player. At best.
As for the bolded, it is one thing to trade for a "proven closer" like Kimbrel is, and quite another to trade for a setup man. Yet even those backfire heavily, such as the trade for Bailey (who was known to be fragile) and the trade for Hanrahan (he was good and he also came with Holt so...). At least in each of those trades it was not about getting a two month rental for a good position player.I don't think the Shaw trade is close to worst trade ever, but I don't think it's far off from being worse than the Freddy Sanchez one, and another season or two of this type of production makes the Shaw trade worse. At least if you would prefer the dollar bill over 2 players worth 70 cents or w/e. The Sanchez trade had some shenanigans attached to it too, though I don't recall the specifics.
I also think the Josh Reddick trade is in the same group as the Suppan/Sanchez trade.
With the Bagwell trade, I'd just break it down to it's a lot harder to find a Bagwell than a Shaw, or a Josh Reddick. When the Shaw/Reddick trades work out better for the other team, kinda just have to shrug it off...and to stop trading positional players for MRs (although the Kimbrel trade is looking like a huge heist atm). You want some of the players you trade away to actually be successful.
I'm going to quote Neyer exactly as he written it in his book and let you determine whether these 22 innings were quality:Anderson provided 22 innings of quality relief in the final month. All other things being equal, the Sox won the division by a single game.
While one can't definitively say Anderson or any other single player was responsible for the difference between winning and not winning:
1) replacing Anderson's innings with whomever would have been lowest on the bullpen totem pole (who was demoted/released for Anderson?) wouldn't have helped.
2) you'd also have to factor in bullpen usage - i.e., how did having Anderson available to pitch multiple innings compare to his not being there.
First off, I don't believe I ever said anything so absurd as: "I think those handful of innings are worth Jeff Bagwell." Why do you think I'm staking out that position?I'm going to quote Neyer exactly as he written it in his book and let you determine whether these 22 innings were quality:
"After the trade, the Red Sox won eight games by three or fewer runs. In four of those games, Andersen did not pitch. In two of them, he pitched both briefly and ineffectively. So the case for Andersen's difference-making really comes down to two games. On September 7, he pitched three innings of scoreless relief in a game the Red Sox eventually won with a run in the bottom of the eleventh. And on September 21, he earned a save--his first and last with the Red Sox--with two scoreless innings in a 3-0 game."
Bolded emphasis mine, if Morgan thought that Andersen should pitch in only half of the eight games the Sox won by three or fewer runs, how valuable was he, really? Two of these games, it sounded like he didn't do very well at all, which also could bring up the point that maybe the Sox beat the Blue Jays by three games that year, maybe four without Larry Andersen?
So the "22 innings of quality relief" is really five. If you think those handful of innings are worth Jeff Bagwell, I don't know what to tell you. And BTW, the Red Sox beat the Blue Jays by two games that year, not one.