Following Former Red Sox: 2013

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InsideTheParker

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Francona just baffled me by his treatment of starting pitcher McAllister. In the second inning, McA was leaving his shoulder open and wasn't finishing his pitches and walked in a run, then gave up two more runs on a hit by Fielder. No appearance of the pitching coach. Catcher didn't even walk up to the mound. Then after he'd given up five runs in the inning, Francona took him out. Seemed both cold and ill-advised to leave him out there with no support.
 

Lowrielicious

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Francona dropped the ball the previous day as well with Salazar throwing a gem through 7 innings (5 hits, 9 Ks, 1 BB, 2 ER) and in line for the W at 4-2. Pitch count right around 100 for a guy coming off TJ surgery, was prime time to take him out. Instead left him in to face 9-1-2 hitters. Got the first two outs, but a single to Hunter brought up Miggy. Salazar had K-ed him 3 times already, but running low on gas was a bad idea to try and get away with it a 4th time. First pitch fastball = tied game. Cleveland loses in 14 innings.
 

Van Everyman

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@Buster_ESPN: There's a solid argument that Kershaw's curveball is the best pitch in the game right now, and Mark Melancon's cutter is the second-best.


@Buster_ESPN: Left-handers against Melancon this year: An OPS of .344, with two extra-base hits in 94 plate appearances. http://t.co/l3ESmIZd0m


So, can we stop killing Ben for the Lowrie trade now? Admittedly Melancon pitched terribly for a big chunk of the year in a Sox uniform, but Ben wasn't wrong about the guy's potential. Sometimes trades don't work out. Two of them even.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Soxfan in Fla said:
Only is we can still kill Ben for flipping him for Hanrahan.
 
This article from ESPN shows a marked change in his mechanics from last year to this. That likely has something to do with his effectiveness this year. Of course last year we had the Festering Bobby V Show Starring an Incompetant Array of Pitching Coaches, so it's small wonder that Melancon didn't get his motion tweaked last year to be more effective.
 
So I think we just need to kill Lucchino for hiring Valentine in the first place.
 

Plympton91

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Occam's Razor: Melancon is back in the NL Central.

Reddick and Lowrie combined for 4 HR today. Brock Holt started at 3B for Boston again.
 

Al Zarilla

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Rudy Pemberton said:
Do wonder what the team would look like had they never bothered making the ill advised Melancon for Hanrahan deal (flipping a cost controlled reliever for a similar one making 7X the salary? Giddy up!), but we'll never know. I always assumed that Farrell was given some input there and must not have liked Melancon. Maybe they just didn't think he could handle the market.
I mean, how would a team go about determining whether that was the case, or that Melancon just had a bad year mechanics-wise, was injured or something else? Did they put a detective on him and find him going incognito to the store, wearing a Groucho mustache and glasses? 
 

nattysez

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Reddick has hit 4 HR in his last 5 AB.  Curious to see if this will be his red-hot month a la May last year.
 
OPS currently at .655 for the year.
 
Edit:
And now he's hit another.  5 HR in 2 days.
 

Snodgrass'Muff

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nattysez said:
Reddick has hit 4 HR in his last 5 AB.  Curious to see if this will be his red-hot month a la May last year.
 
OPS currently at .655 for the year.
 
I'm getting .680 after today.  He's been awful this year.  In fact, his OPS is tied with Mark Reynolds this year.  Of course, it's also .001 better than Josh Hamilton, but that tells us more about Hamilton than it does Reddick.
 
He wasn't a significant loss for this team.  I get that little snippets like his recent run are interesting on their own, but I hope we can at least move past the posts criticizing Ben for trading him.
 

nattysez

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A former Red Sox hit 5 HR in 2 games.  If that doesn't belong in this thread, I don't know what does.
 
Snod, I agree with you 100%.  
 
Reddick's "great" year last year was the product of a just-OK season with a very strong May.  With a hot August this year, he may compile good enough numbers to again be depicted as a budding star, etc., etc. when he's really a average hitter with a tendency to have one hot month each year.  If the trade hadn't happened, Reddick would have just been traded in another deal -- the Sox correctly evaluated his talent.
 

LeoCarrillo

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Mentioned this in the gamethread, but Scutaro, Gonzo and Iggy all had big moments in wins today over Bal, TB and MFY.
 
Three guys that are still fun to root for. Thanks for the help.
 

Plympton91

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nattysez said:
A former Red Sox hit 5 HR in 2 games.  If that doesn't belong in this thread, I don't know what does.
 
Snod, I agree with you 100%.  
 
Reddick's "great" year last year was the product of a just-OK season with a very strong May.  With a hot August this year, he may compile good enough numbers to again be depicted as a budding star, etc., etc. when he's really a average hitter with a tendency to have one hot month each year.  If the trade hadn't happened, Reddick would have just been traded in another deal -- the Sox correctly evaluated his talent.
Because gold glove defense in Fenway's rightfield for near-major league minimum is worth nothing, and that's why they're instead paying $39 million for a very similar player.
 

MakMan44

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You're an idiot if you think Reddick and Vic are anything CLOSE to the same player
 

lexrageorge

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Where do you get the preposterous idea that Reddick is nearly as good as Victorino in right field?
 

barbed wire Bob

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This is from the American Academy of Orthopedic Surgeons.
It takes timesometimes 2 to 3 monthsfor the hip to heal after a dislocation. The rehabilitation time may be longer if there are additional fractures. An orthopaedic surgeon may recommend traction for a short period of time, followed by controlled exercises using a continuous passive motion machine.

Patients can probably begin walking with crutches when free of pain. A walking aid, such as a cane, should be used until the limp disappears.

A hip dislocation can have long-term consequences, particularly if there are associated fractures. As the thighbone is pushed out of its socket, it can disrupt blood vessels and nerves. When blood supply to the bone is lost, the bone can die, resulting in avascular necrosis or osteonecrosis. The protective cartilage covering the bone may also be damaged, which increases the risk of developing arthritis in the joint.
At the very least, it sounds like he will be out for the rest of the season. Too bad for him but, hopefully, there will be no long-term problems.

Edit: forgot the linky thing. http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/topic.cfm?topic=A00352
 

Sprowl

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lexrageorge said:
Where do you get the preposterous idea that Reddick is nearly as good as Victorino in right field?
It is a reasonable deduction from their performances and from their numbers. Reddick's 2012 earned him a gold glove -- and it wasn't just because he hit home runs. 15 outfield assists for the year, +22 Defensive Runs Saved in RF, and UZR/150 of 20.2. DRS and UZR/150 may not yield predictive results with less than three years of data, but they do give very good retrospective results: Reddick was a legitimately outstanding right fielder in 2012 with a cannon arm. In 2013, his range has been almost as good, but he has had fewer opportunities for assists and has not made as many outstanding plays.

Victorino's 2013 should earn him a gold glove, regardless of how many home runs he hits. DRS +14, UZR/150 38.8, and 7 outfield assists in 676 innings count as outstanding play, quite comparable to Reddick's 2012, and just ahead of Reddick's 2013. What is so preposterous about the comparison?
 

Plympton91

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Especially since the difference between their salaries may end up costing the team JE

There's also the angle that Reddick was traded for absolutely nothing. If he has 1 WAR in his entire careeer he'll end up more valuable than Bailey was for the Red Sox.
 

mt8thsw9th

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Victorino will have absolutely no impact on Ellsbury. If the Red Sox do not sign him it's because he will be asking for more than he's worth. It's not because they will run out of salary to pay him a fair wage.

Ellsbury and Reddick would comprise more salary than Victorino and Bradley Jr., and I imagine you'll start banging the "HLW are cheap and don't care about winning" thing again when Ellsbury leaves.
 

Plympton91

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I've consistently said that all John Henry owes the fans is to spend up to the luxury tax cap and whatever is necessary on player development. He's always done that, and sometimes more.

The problems have come when his GMs have gotten a fettish for shines new toys at the expense of people who've performed in Boston. That's how, for instance, they've already spent nearly half of what Papelbon's contract cost the Phillies plus 5 prospects without getting a cent of value while just trying to replace him (Jenks, Bailey, and Hanrahan)
 

LuckyBen

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I've consistently said that all John Henry owes the fans is to spend up to the luxury tax cap and whatever is necessary on player development. He's always done that, and sometimes more.

The problems have come when his GMs have gotten a fettish for shines new toys at the expense of people who've performed in Boston. That's how, for instance, they've already spent nearly half of what Papelbon's contract cost the Phillies plus 5 prospects without getting a cent of value while just trying to replace him (Jenks, Bailey, and Hanrahan)


I would much rather have Koji closing and Shane in right than Paps and Reddick. Papelbon looks like a terrible contract after one year and how long do you realistically see the sox sticking with a RF hitting .214 and 10 home runs (after a hot weekend)? Yes, he had a great season last year and has looked lost this year, becoming a platoon player. Melancon was never going to contribute in the AL East and we already have a 40 man crunch. Those prospects were gone one way or another.
 

lexrageorge

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Plympton91 said:
Especially since the difference between their salaries may end up costing the team JE

There's also the angle that Reddick was traded for absolutely nothing. If he has 1 WAR in his entire careeer he'll end up more valuable than Bailey was for the Red Sox.
Victorino is not going to cost the Sox Jacoby Ellsbury.  Scott Boras may end up costing the Sox Ellsbury.  If the bidding goes up to 10/250 on JE, then I'll be glad if the Sox are watching from the sidelines.  That, however, has nothing to do with Shane Victorino.
 
And Bobby Jenks, who was never signed as a Papelbon replacment, has been officially irrelevant for the past 2 seasons.
 
Admittedly, the whole Bailey/Melancon/Hanrahan series of trades will not be known as Cherington's finest moments.  But some of that was bad luck due to the random nature and general unpredictability of injuries to pitchers.  And I've yet to see any evidence of Jeff Bagwells, Jason Variteks or even Derek Lowes among the players they gave up.  
 

Plympton91

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lexrageorge said:
Victorino is not going to cost the Sox Jacoby Ellsbury.  Scott Boras may end up costing the Sox Ellsbury.  If the bidding goes up to 10/250 on JE, then I'll be glad if the Sox are watching from the sidelines.  That, however, has nothing to do with Shane Victorino.
 
And Bobby Jenks, who was never signed as a Papelbon replacment, has been officially irrelevant for the past 2 seasons.
 
Admittedly, the whole Bailey/Melancon/Hanrahan series of trades will not be known as Cherington's finest moments.  But some of that was bad luck due to the random nature and general unpredictability of injuries to pitchers.  And I've yet to see any evidence of Jeff Bagwells, Jason Variteks or even Derek Lowes among the players they gave up.  
 
The Red Sox are very clearly managing to the luxury tax cap.  A $13 million player who is very good defensively but suspect on offense, especially against righthanders is the definition of a luxury. 
 
If you don't think Bobby Jenks was signed to replace Papelbon, then you have very limited reasoning skills. 
 
 
LuckyBen said:
I would much rather have Koji closing and Shane in right than Paps and Reddick. Papelbon looks like a terrible contract after one year and how long do you realistically see the sox sticking with a RF hitting .214 and 10 home runs (after a hot weekend)? Yes, he had a great season last year and has looked lost this year, becoming a platoon player. Melancon was never going to contribute in the AL East and we already have a 40 man crunch. Those prospects were gone one way or another.
 
The point is that getting one great season (2012) and one decent season (2013--he still has a 1.05 WHIP and 5/1 K/BB ratio) out of Papelbon might still end up being a better value than what they spent to replace him.  Koji isn't in the conversation as he was signed as the 3rd righthander out of the pen behind Hanrahan ($7.5 million for negative value this year) who was traded for because Bailey ($8 million last year and this year for net zero value) couldn't be relied upon to be healthy.  Then add what they spent on Jenks, who was their first attempt to have a closer in place for 2012 given their preordained decision to let Paps walk ($6 million for 2012 for no value, leaving aside the same amount for negative value as a set up man in 2011).  So, you're at $21.5 million and 5 prospects (Lowrie, who'd look fantastic at 3B right now; Reddick, who is still a 26 year old gold glover with much improved K and BB rates this year as well as an absurdly low BABip despite a career high line drive percentage; Weiland; Head; and Alcantara) but have gotten negative return on the investment.  Thus, you can mark down Papelbon's contract by the $21.5 million that wouldn't have been wasted, bringing it to just 4 years, $28.5 million and then subtract whatever more you want for the prospects.  On net, they could have matched the Phillies offer and ended up with the equivalent of Papelbon for a middle-reliever's salary.
 

MakMan44

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Injuries happen. You can't fault Ben or Theo for the injuries that kept happening to the closers they got to replace Paps. 
 
As for Vic, well, Fangraphs has his value pegged at 18$ million so far this year, while Reddick is at ~half that. 
 
EDIT: Also, Shane has hit pretty well against RHP this year, just slightly better than his career average. 
 

Rovin Romine

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MakMan44 said:
Injuries happen. You can't fault Ben or Theo for the injuries that kept happening to the closers they got to replace Paps. 
 
As for Vic, well, Fangraphs has his value pegged at 18$ million so far this year, while Reddick is at ~half that. 
 
EDIT: Also, Shane has hit pretty well against RHP this year, just slightly better than his career average. 
 
Don't be silly - of course you can count them against both Ben and Theo. 
 
Plympton - please remind me what the injury history of Iglesias and Peavey will be for 2014.  I'd like to start blaming/praising now, rather than later.
 

Plympton91

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BAAWHAHAHAHA!  Yeah, how could anyone have possibly predicted that Andrew "Iron-Man" Bailey would have arm problems for his entire tenure with the Red Sox (and while his thumb injury in spring training 2012 was a fluke, the forearm stiffness that developed during his rehab and delayed his return from that injury was not), that a morbidly obese head case coming off his worst season as a pro like Bobby Jenks would be useless, or that a guy with a career walk rate in the National League of 4.4 per 9 (and 5.7 per 9 in the most recent season) would struggle in the AL East?   Yup, you got me there.
 

LuckyBen

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BAAWHAHAHAHA! Yeah, how could anyone have possibly predicted that Andrew "Iron-Man" Bailey would have arm problems for his entire tenure with the Red Sox (and while his thumb injury in spring training 2012 was a fluke, the forearm stiffness that developed during his rehab and delayed his return from that injury was not), that a morbidly obese head case coming off his worst season as a pro like Bobby Jenks would be useless, or that a guy with a career walk rate in the National League of 4.4 per 9 (and 5.7 per 9 in the most recent season) would struggle in the AL East? Yup, you got me there.


Yet, you bring up how Mr. Glass would look fantastic at third, in the first healthy year of his pro career. I guess we could of held onto him for another injury riddled season knowing that he would have a great year heading into free agency.
 

lexrageorge

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Plympton91 said:
 
The Red Sox are very clearly managing to the luxury tax cap.  A $13 million player who is very good defensively but suspect on offense, especially against righthanders is the definition of a luxury. 
 
If you don't think Bobby Jenks was signed to replace Papelbon, then you have very limited reasoning skills. 
....
If you think Bobby Jenks is relevant to any discussion of the 2013 Red Sox, then you have very limited reasoning skills.  
 
Victorino and his "suspect offense" has a whole 70 points higher OPS than Mr. Reddick.  As much as you may ridicule it, $13M is the market price for such a player in this day and age, and you're forgetting the fact that the Sox were able to sign him using only money, no draft picks or other prospects.  
 
By all accounts there will be plenty of money for the team to sign the guys they want to sign; if they decide not to resign Ellsbury once his contract exceeds the length and AAV of Crawford's, it will have nothing at all to do with Shane Victorino; if you think otherwise you have no reasoning skills whatsoever. 
 
Maybe the team guessed wrong on Andrew Bailey (as if missing a month 2 consecutive seasons with completely unrelated injuries is predictive of something, but whatever), but by that logic they certainly guessed right on Josh Beckett. 
 

DanoooME

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Plympton91 said:
 
If you don't think Bobby Jenks was signed to replace Papelbon, then you have very limited reasoning skills. 
 
 
He wasn't
 
The deal for Jenks, as first reported by ESPN's Buster Olney, is for two years and $12 million, pending a physical, and gives the Red Sox a power arm to go along with Jonathan Papelbonand Daniel Bard. Jenks, according to Olney, will also be given a chance to compete to be Red Sox closer after next season, when Papelbon is eligible for free agency, though Bard still figures as the odds-on favorite for the job if Papelbon moves on.
 
 
That sounds like setup man with an outside chance to close to me.  If you think Jenks was absolutely going to close at the time he was signed at any point, well, need I say it?
 
It really sounds like you need to let some things go (some of them almost 3 years in the past) and move on.  The rest of us have.
 

Madmartigan

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Jose Iglesias is 10-35 with the Tigers with 9 singles, 1 homer and 0 walks, resulting in a .286/.286/.371 line.  Two of the singles are classified as soft flyballs and five are of the infield variety, so he's still getting by mostly on luck and speed out of the box.   
 
In the field, he's made a couple of phenomenal plays, including this one last night:
 
http://wapc.mlb.com/play?content_id=29653669
 
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DanoooME said:
 
He wasn't
 
 
That sounds like setup man with an outside chance to close to me.  If you think Jenks was absolutely going to close at the time he was signed at any point, well, need I say it?
 
It really sounds like you need to let some things go (some of them almost 3 years in the past) and move on.  The rest of us have.
 
 
But, is that Edes injecting that thought?  I don't think that article proves anything.  Especially when you look at the fact that when Papelbon left, Bard was moved to the rotation instead.  And you also have to believe that the Red Sox love having a Bard-type as a weapon that they can deploy at any time before the 9th, sort of how Hanrahan and Bailey were for the first 10 or so games this year (there was a particular game, early, where they brought in Bailey to get a key out (s), instead of saving him for the 8th, and allowing Koji to be the "set up guy").  One might think that if Jenks didn't blow up, they might have slotted him into the closer role and kept Bard as the weapon (or kept their plan to move him to the rotation).
 
Personally, I'm with Plympton on this one.  I believe that it was a hedge against Papelbon's depature.
 
EDIT: From that article though:
 
 
 
He had back problems in midseason and forearm stiffness in the season's last month.
 
I've said this before, but I have real issues with the Sox jumping through hoops on all things financial, but seem to completely ignore health and fitness.  Is there any wonder that Bailey, Gas-can-rahan, and Jenks failed?
 

Plympton91

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DanoooME said:
 
He wasn't
 
 
That sounds like setup man with an outside chance to close to me.  If you think Jenks was absolutely going to close at the time he was signed at any point, well, need I say it?
 
It really sounds like you need to let some things go (some of them almost 3 years in the past) and move on.  The rest of us have.
And the fact that Bard began 2012 as a starter tells you what about Olney's prognostication?

I use the nonsigning of Paps and the clusterfuck of the attempt to replace him not to rehash the past but as a cautionary lesson for those who always think the WAR will be greater if the team spends less money on players other teams don't value as highly.

I fear they're about to relearn that lesson as we move to an opportunity for similarly penny wise, pound foolish negotiations with Ellsbury. Hopefully not.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Plympton91 said:
And the fact that Bard began 2012 as a starter tells you what about Olney's prognostication?

I use the nonsigning of Paps and the clusterfuck of the attempt to replace him not to rehash the past but as a cautionary lesson for those who always think the WAR will be greater if the team spends less money on players other teams don't value as highly.

I fear they're about to relearn that lesson as we move to an opportunity for similarly penny wise, pound foolish negotiations with Ellsbury. Hopefully not.
 
We get it, you prefer that the Sox pony up and keep every player that's played well in Boston. Damon and Papelbon immediately come to mind.
 
What's pound foolish for Ellsbury? If Boras asks for 10/250 do you give it to him? 6/120? What about his injury history? His lost power? Do you pay him based on his one great year, or on his total body of work? What about Bradley? etc etc etc. There is zero chance that Boras doesn't test the market, so the price will be much higher than, say, the extension just given to Pedroia.
 
It does us a disservice to present these scenarios in simplistic terms with obvious answers. Provide some guidelines for what's acceptable to pay this guy.
 

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LeoCarrillo said:
 
That was such a f'ing moonshot of K-Rod. Has to be my most elating Sox moment ever, non-2004. 
 
The post-game presser was almost as good.
 
" I haven't been feeling well all year. But when you don't feel good and you still get hits...that's when you know you're a bad man." Said in the most matter-of-fact way possible.
 

Pearl Wilson

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Doug Mientkiewicz, a minor league manager in the Twins org, was involved in a brawl.
 
http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Video_of_Mientkiewicz_minor_league_manager_brawl081713
 
 
After a little jawing between the managers, the two met behind home plate, and according to Zimmerman, rolled around on the ground for a time as their teams also came out onto the field. The incident lasted about a minute, Zimmerman tweeted.
 
Both managers hit the showers early following a double ejection. It sounds as though neither man was worse for the wear, however, as each patted the other on the back after the tussle.
 
 
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