Florio: Pash ordered PSI readings “expunged” in 2015

BaseballJones

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Not surprised at all. But wow to see my suspicions corroborated... I mean, the NFL office absolutely SUCKS.

Looks like I need to update the epilogue in my paper.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Honestly, anyone who doesn't think the NFL realized they were wrong at some point during Deflategate--and certainly after they captured and never publicized actual air pressure measurements later on---is a total and unredeemable moron. I appreciate Florio publishing it, but this issue has, for anyone with a functioning brain, been long-settled.
 

glennhoffmania

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I mean this only with love for my fellow SoSH members who happen to be Pats fans: it's been seven years. It's time to let it go and not get angry.
 

Ralphwiggum

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I mean this only with love for my fellow SoSH members who happen to be Pats fans: it's been seven years. It's time to let it go and not get angry.
The greatest player to ever play the game, who has never tested positive for PEDs, has never been arrested, has never been involved in any off the field incident that has brought shame on him or the league, was dragged repeatedly over something that never happened, had an entire Super Bowl run up subsumed by inane speculation about him being a cheater, and ultimately was suspended for four games for that same thing that never happened. And most of the national football media has never properly covered the incident. And 9/10 opposing fans you talk to think he deflated the footballs.

I’ll never let this one go,
 

pokey_reese

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Still only on page one? You've changed, man...

After a few of the recent really cold nights in a row, I noticed that my tire pressure light came on last week and it looked like someone had gone around and let the air out of my tires. I got mad all over again, before seeing thi thread pop up. But yeah, it is what it is, and it made as much sense then as it does now. I stopped going to the NFL for my science lessons a long time ago.
 

snowmanny

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Honestly, anyone who doesn't think the NFL realized they were wrong at some point during Deflategate--and certainly after they captured and never publicized actual air pressure measurements later on---is a total and unredeemable moron. I appreciate Florio publishing it, but this issue has, for anyone with a functioning brain, been long-settled.
I will just say that deflategate made me realize that there are a lot of “total and unredeemable morons” out there. It was shocking. Further events have not dissuaded me from this conclusion.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I will just say that deflategate made me realize that there are a lot of “total and unredeemable morons” out there. It was shocking. Further events have not dissuaded my opinion.
That is sadly a true and reasonable assessment.

I am also with Ralphwiggum---we should never let this go.
 

scottyno

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I mean, we knew this already when they announced ahead of time they were going to collect PSI readings the following year and then we never heard a single reading they actually took.

Though I'm not sure why in the same article where he debunks anything happening based on science Florio says the Pats were doing something fishy based on vague text messages
 

Nick Kaufman

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The greatest player to ever play the game, who has never tested positive for PEDs, has never been arrested, has never been involved in any off the field incident that has brought shame on him or the league, was dragged repeatedly over something that never happened, had an entire Super Bowl run up subsumed by inane speculation about him being a cheater, and ultimately was suspended for four games for that same thing that never happened. And most of the national football media has never properly covered the incident. And 9/10 opposing fans you talk to think he deflated the footballs.

I’ll never let this one go,
He was dragged over a thing that had it happened exactly as the critics alleged, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS, OR AT WORSE THE FOOTBALL EQUIVALENT OF DRIVING 60 IN A 55 ZONE!
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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The greatest player to ever play the game, who has never tested positive for PEDs, has never been arrested, has never been involved in any off the field incident that has brought shame on him or the league, was dragged repeatedly over something that never happened, had an entire Super Bowl run up subsumed by inane speculation about him being a cheater, and ultimately was suspended for four games for that same thing that never happened. And most of the national football media has never properly covered the incident. And 9/10 opposing fans you talk to think he deflated the footballs.

I’ll never let this one go,
The part that makes it worth bringing up is how little trouble the league has with Soviet era misinformation.

”Expunging” data that shows you were wrong is just par for the course for this league, and while replaying deflategate over and over is stupid, it is important to keep this in mind when you hear about other things like concussions or tanking games or hiring minority coaches.

They lie. They cheat. They manipulate. So when you see any story it is important to remember this, even if you want to believe it. Like bounty gate or whatever.

And it is also a good reminder that there are not really any such things as NFL reporters either. There are paid promoters of the league. PR people. In the aftermath of deflategate, I bought a pressure gauge and a football and stuck it in my refrigerator for 30 minutes and posted my results here. Nobody needs Jeff Freaking Pash or the 2015 data. Any reporter could have done what I did and would have debunked this nonsense in an hour.
 

RG33

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My 4th grader, in Southern California, just asked me “why does everyone say Brady cheated?”because she saw me playing the 2018 video with everyone booing Goodell. She gets pounded with it from her classmates AND her teacher when she wears her Brady Patriots jersey to school on “team day”. When I just told her “they made up stuff about 2 pumps of the bike pump being taken out of the football by a guy in the bathroom before the game” — she retorted “Seriously? My bike has to be pumped up every week.”. She is 9 years old.

I say all of this not caring because the haters are gonna hate and 6x (7*) and all that, but they absolutely did lasting damage to Brady’s reputation and legacy.
 

PedroKsBambino

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It's just so odd, as someone noted above, that this wasn't noted by NFL journalists after the NFL spent a 'year' collecting data on ball air pressure it did not report.

Isn't the only rational conclusion that the data either suggested:

1) there was nothing unusual about Pats readings (most likely)
2) there was wide variation that the NFL could not explain? (which effecitvely exonerates Pats)

Is there ANY other reason the NFL wouldn't report on the data it collected? Yet, other than occasional comments by writers like Mike Reiss it got zero coverage. The next time someone tells you Mort is anything other than a bought-and-sold useless hack, ask them why he didn't report on that.
 

ifmanis5

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Why would the league delete the numbers? It’s simple. For cold days, the numbers were too close to the actual numbers generated by the New England footballs at halftime of the playoff game against the Colts. Which means that the numbers generated at halftime of the January 2015 AFC Championship were not evidence of cheating, but of the normal operation of air pressure inside a rubber bladder when the temperature drops. Just as it was expected.
 

BaseballJones

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The greatest player to ever play the game, who has never tested positive for PEDs, has never been arrested, has never been involved in any off the field incident that has brought shame on him or the league, was dragged repeatedly over something that never happened, had an entire Super Bowl run up subsumed by inane speculation about him being a cheater, and ultimately was suspended for four games for that same thing that never happened. And most of the national football media has never properly covered the incident. And 9/10 opposing fans you talk to think he deflated the footballs.

I’ll never let this one go,
And the Pats were docked a first and fourth round pick, and that helped contribute to the loss of yet ANOTHER pick with the ridiculous Browns video story from a couple of years ago. So the ramifications for the Patriots franchise are still being felt. We have every right to still be pissed off at this.
 

BigSoxFan

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Don’t really care about this story anymore but I do welcome any and all heat that comes down on the NFL front office, for any reason. But nobody will care about this story, particularly in the week leading up to a SB.
 

Harry Hooper

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I mean this only with love for my fellow SoSH members who happen to be Pats fans: it's been seven years. It's time to let it go and not get angry.
Beyond any impact on the Pats, everyone should be upset at how the NFL gets away with this crap and never gets called on it. The big announcement about funding concussion research with the NIH and then bailing and the PR stunts about owning the domestic violence space are probably the two most notorious examples.
 
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Cotillion

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I hadn’t realized the tidbit of Troy Vicent was in or part of replay booth for pats vs eagles super bowl. The one with the sudden new interpretation of the catch rule. That still bothers me that the rule was changed in the fly. Even worse knowing Vincent was part of it.
 

Bongorific

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My 4th grader, in Southern California, just asked me “why does everyone say Brady cheated?”because she saw me playing the 2018 video with everyone booing Goodell. She gets pounded with it from her classmates AND her teacher when she wears her Brady Patriots jersey to school on “team day”. When I just told her “they made up stuff about 2 pumps of the bike pump being taken out of the football by a guy in the bathroom before the game” — she retorted “Seriously? My bike has to be pumped up every week.”. She is 9 years old.

I say all of this not caring because the haters are gonna hate and 6x (7*) and all that, but they absolutely did lasting damage to Brady’s reputation and legacy.
Which is what never made any sense to me. I get that the league office, run by a bunch of Jets fans, hated the Patriots and that oh so smug asshole Bill Belichick.

But you you couldn’t design in a lab a better face for the league than Tom Brady. He isn’t some freakin weirdo like Rodgers, or someone who’s rubbed his balls in the face of a team employee or had HGH shipped to his home like Manning.
 

E5 Yaz

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Here's what Florio says regarding the click-bait headline to his post

Per a source with knowledge of the situation, and as reported in Playmakers, the NFL expunged the numbers. It happened at the direct order, per the source, of NFL general counsel Jeff Pash.
We wouldn't accept one anonymous source as proof the Patriots did something wrong. Why accept one anonymous source that the NFL purposely destroyed the 2015 readings to cover their ass?

He then goes on to say this:

Why would the league delete the numbers? It’s simple. For cold days, the numbers were too close to the actual numbers generated by the New England footballs at halftime of the playoff game against the Colts. Which means that the numbers generated at halftime of the January 2015 AFC Championship were not evidence of cheating, but of the normal operation of air pressure inside a rubber bladder when the temperature drops. Just as it was expected.
He cites no factual basis for this; it's just his supposition. He didn't see the numbers, so he can't prove his thesis.

Finally, he hedges and says:

We’d always believed the Patriots and Brady got screwed. While something fishy was indeed happening, based on the text messages exchanged by John Jastremski and Jim McNally, the NFL failed to catch them in the act.
He's using his opinion that the Patriots got screwed and lining things up to fit his narrative. Where have we heard that before ... in the opposite direction? And then says that "something fishy" was happening," they just weren't caught in the act.

Not to mention saying while he thinks the Patriots got hosed, brady made things worse for himself

(Among other things, Brady was asked if he’s a cheater. His decidedly unconvincing response was, “I don’t believe so.”)
To recap, the NFL did a lousy job, and might have covered up evidence that would have cleared the Patriots. But the Patriots were doing something fishy and Brady was decidedly unconvincing when he said he didn't think he cheated.

Bottom line? Can't say it better than Florio himself:

Playmakers, my new book (buy early, buy often) ...
 

Harry Hooper

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He cites no factual basis for this; it's just his supposition. He didn't see the numbers, so he can't prove his thesis.

You are correct to note the problems of his using a single source, but there is some basis. He did write the following:

As the source put it, “numerous” measurements made at halftime of games during the 2015 season generated numbers beyond the permitted range of 12.5 to 13.5 psi, with the reading showing a direct correlation between temperature and air pressure.
 

glennhoffmania

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Beyond any impact on the Pats, everyone should be upset at how the NFL gets away with this crap and never gets called on it. The big announcement about funding concussion research with the NIH and then bailing and the PR stunts about owning the domestic violence space are probably the two most notorious examples.
I hate the NFL. I think that Goodell is scum. The way they handle pretty much everything is terrible. But that wasn't the point. I was simply saying that seven years later, as much as Pats fans might feel that the team was wronged, it's not worth getting all worked up all over again.
 

E5 Yaz

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You are correct to note the problems of his using a single source, but there is some basis. He did write the following:
True, but again, Florio's drawing his conclusion from the same scant evidence point ... and he established his conclusion ("the Patriots got screwed") and saw everything through that lens.

Look, the Patriots and Brady got royally fucked by the NFL. We all know that. But I'm not going to defend that wall based on self-aggrandizing lightweight analysis from Mike Florio
 

bankshot1

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I think Florio's point is the Ideal Gas Law still works independent of whether or not Pash destroyed the corrobotating evidence.

That and we can expect to lose our #1 draft pick.
 

Justthetippett

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Everyone puts this crap behind them and that’s why the NFL keeps getting away with it. I’ll never understand why Kraft couldn’t figure a way through this that didn’t hurt Brady so badly. That said, aside from mega douche Aaron Rodgers, you don’t hear too much mud slung Brady’s way about it anymore. He overcame that in addition to Father Time.
 

BigSoxFan

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Everyone puts this crap behind them and that’s why the NFL keeps getting away with it. I’ll never understand why Kraft couldn’t figure a way through this that didn’t hurt Brady so badly. That said, aside from mega douche Aaron Rodgers, you don’t hear too much mud slung Brady’s way about it anymore. He overcame that in addition to Father Time.
That’s because he won 4 SBs, including a historic comeback, since the bogus claims were made against him, which is about as awesome as it gets given the odds of doing it.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Expunged is sort of a fancy word, but does it even make a difference? Whether the numbers were expunged (and what does that even mean) or are sitting in a vault somewhere, isn’t the key point one we all knew already?

The league sampled a bunch of balls in 2015 and never released the results. All Florio is doing is drawing the same inference that Pats fans always have. it’s a powerful inference but still an inference.

The other thing we know is that dozens and dozens of balls are put in play in the NFL every month that are outside 12.5 to 13.5 psi. We don’t need Pash’s numbers to tell us this. Any kid with a calculator knows it.
 

RG33

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You are correct to note the problems of his using a single source, but there is some basis. He did write the following:
We also know that the NFL kept track of these numbers in 2015, never released them, and they’ve never been leaked or come out since, so. . . . . . .everyone knows what happened, this is just putting it back out there, and I hope like fuck that it catches some headlines this week, and would love to see Kraft (won’t) and Brady (unlikely) pile on the NFL pig pile right now and say something about what bullshit it was to reignite things (despite not wanting to be scolded here on SoSH for talking about it again).
 

RG33

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Expunged is sort of a fancy word, but does it even make a difference? Whether the numbers were expunged (and what does that even mean) or are sitting in a vault somewhere, isn’t the key point one we all knew already?

The league sampled a bunch of balls in 2015 and never released the results. All Florio is doing is drawing the same inference that Pats fans always have. it’s a powerful inference but still an inference.

The other thing we know is that dozens and dozens of balls are put in play in the NFL every month that are outside 12.5 to 13.5 psi. We don’t need Pash’s numbers to tell us this. Any kid with a calculator knows it.
Well, like always, it would be about the coverup being way worse than the “crime”, right ?
 

E5 Yaz

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All Florio is doing is drawing the same inference that Pats fans always have. it’s a powerful inference but still an inference.
And even while he's making that inference, Florio says that the Patriots were doing "something fishy" and that Brady was "unconvincing" when talking about it.

All I'm trying to get across is that this isn't a smoking gun or magic bullet. Florio's not saying anything new here, other than he claims to have a source about the expunging of the results the following season
 

djbayko

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You are correct to note the problems of his using a single source, but there is some basis. He did write the following:
As the source put it, “numerous” measurements made at halftime of games during the 2015 season generated numbers beyond the permitted range of 12.5 to 13.5 psi, with the reading showing a direct correlation between temperature and air pressure.
Yay! I so proud of the NFL for successfully conducting a 5th grade science experiment. What's next? Are they gonna dissect a frog?
 

Van Everyman

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Here's what Florio says regarding the click-bait headline to his post



We wouldn't accept one anonymous source as proof the Patriots did something wrong. Why accept one anonymous source that the NFL purposely destroyed the 2015 readings to cover their ass?

He then goes on to say this:



He cites no factual basis for this; it's just his supposition. He didn't see the numbers, so he can't prove his thesis.

Finally, he hedges and says:



He's using his opinion that the Patriots got screwed and lining things up to fit his narrative. Where have we heard that before ... in the opposite direction? And then says that "something fishy" was happening," they just weren't caught in the act.

Not to mention saying while he thinks the Patriots got hosed, brady made things worse for himself



To recap, the NFL did a lousy job, and might have covered up evidence that would have cleared the Patriots. But the Patriots were doing something fishy and Brady was decidedly unconvincing when he said he didn't think he cheated.

Bottom line? Can't say it better than Florio himself:
I find it a little strange to go after Florio – a guy who I believe was on whatever we decided to ultimately call the White List. The main headline of this piece is that the league actively destroyed evidence (which I believe Florio doesn’t mention they also did with Spygate). Then he says, “Yeah there were also the Deflator and Dorito Dink’s texts and Brady’s lame press conference … but they still got screwed.”

What exactly is controversial here? He’s saying, “In case you forgot, whatever minor ass reasons you have to think the Patriots cheated, the league office in the NFL sucks and absolutely screwed them on DFG.”
 

Sille Skrub

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The greatest player to ever play the game, who has never tested positive for PEDs, has never been arrested, has never been involved in any off the field incident that has brought shame on him or the league, was dragged repeatedly over something that never happened, had an entire Super Bowl run up subsumed by inane speculation about him being a cheater, and ultimately was suspended for four games for that same thing that never happened. And most of the national football media has never properly covered the incident. And 9/10 opposing fans you talk to think he deflated the footballs.

I’ll never let this one go,
Amen. Seconded.
 

E5 Yaz

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The main headline of this piece is that the league actively destroyed evidence (which I believe Florio doesn’t mention they also did with Spygate).
And I'm saying that the "evidence" they destroyed had nothing to do with the balls used in Deflategate, but the results the next season that allegedly shows that the Ideal Gas Law proves that the Patriots might not have deflated balls purposely. He then uses that "information" -- from a single, unnamed source, so who the hell knows that person's motives -- to go back in time and say the Patriots got screwed. As I said before, just because the source says something that buffets our beliefs doesn't mean that the source is telling the truth.

It's lazy reporting, it's questionable logic and it's being done to sell a book.

We know the Patriots got screwed. We'll always know they got screwed. But to suggest (as has been suggested or asked in this thread, even if in jest) that this "revelation" can clear the record or be the basis of a lawsuit is silly.

And with that I'm out. Have fun rehashing this all again.
 

Myt1

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And I'm saying that the "evidence" they destroyed had nothing to do with the balls used in Deflategate, but the results the next season that allegedly shows that the Ideal Gas Law proves that the Patriots might not have deflated balls purposely. He then uses that "information" -- from a single, unnamed source, so who the hell knows that person's motives -- to go back in time and say the Patriots got screwed. As I said before, just because the source says something that buffets our beliefs doesn't mean that the source is telling the truth.

It's lazy reporting, it's questionable logic and it's being done to sell a book.

We know the Patriots got screwed. We'll always know they got screwed. But to suggest (as has been suggested or asked in this thread, even if in jest) that this "revelation" can clear the record or be the basis of a lawsuit is silly.

And with that I'm out. Have fun rehashing this all again.
Huh?

What evidence do you expect regarding the deleted evidence, other than someone who says they saw the deleted evidence?

Of course it doesn’t mean that the source is telling the truth. But that’s literally always the case with sources. And there’s no error at all with the logic.

The lawsuit stuff is stupid. But the fact that the NFL appears to have deleted information that would have largely illustrated their either the validity or invalidity of their prior conclusions is a revelation nonetheless.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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It really feels like @E5funpolice might be on to something.

Florio has a book to sell about controversial events in the NFL. Deflategate is still a hot button issue that generates views so he chums the waters a bit and the shocking true revelation is...

Everyone now knows Florio has a book. "buy early. buy often"
 

lexrageorge

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We do know the NFL was supposed to collect PSI readings. We do know that the NFL never published even a summary of those readings, which basically made the entire exercise meaningless. We do know that Exponent committed fraud but yet was lauded for "doing science" on the topic. The above is not enough to make me believe what Florio is selling, but we don't necessarily need his tidbit of info from his singular source to know that Brady and the Patriots got royally screwed.
 

m0ckduck

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The NFL collecting PSI readings stands right up there with OJ vowing to find the real killers in terms of lame, disingenuous pursuit of justice.
 

Nick Kaufman

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True, but again, Florio's drawing his conclusion from the same scant evidence point ... and he established his conclusion ("the Patriots got screwed") and saw everything through that lens.

Look, the Patriots and Brady got royally fucked by the NFL. We all know that. But I'm not going to defend that wall based on self-aggrandizing lightweight analysis from Mike Florio
You know what would be a great idea? If the NFL published the 2015 findings. How can they be expunged anyway? No one keeps copy?

what do they say if they get asked tomorrow about the results? How can they treat it as a state secret? The PSI readings on footballs?
 

Lose Remerswaal

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But Dan Shaugnessy told us yesterday (and no, I won’t link and give him clicks) that all Pats fans know that Brady knew he was playing with deflated balls.

I like the “NFL always does shit” posts. But as long as the ratings are ridiculously high they will continue to do shit. And get away with all of it.