Final Four Game Thread

Kliq

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I've been following women's basketball since the Diana Taurasi days, and my heuristic / belief over the years has been that there are only about ~8 legit teams in the country in any given year, who get all the top recruits and have legitimate chances at upsetting the big guns / winning it all. Some of those names change year to year, some of them stay the same, but the early tournament games seem to much more typically resemble UConn's 140-52 first-round blowout than the quality we've seen. Whereas, I think the men's field is a lot deeper, and the quality margin between the very top teams and the next tier or two being a lot smaller. So I only really watch the Women's tournament once it gets to the Elite 8, with not much more than a passing interest the first 3 rounds. But once you get down to those 8 teams, man, they can really fuckin play, and they give up nothing to the men in terms of mental toughness or teamwork. And you also don't have the one-and-done NBA dynamic that makes top men's teams more of a franken-team, where you hardly know some of the key players and they feel almost like stand-ins with no personal story attached.

edit: My impression is that in the 80s and 90s, that list of legit contending teams may have been even smaller, so frankly, 8 is pretty good. The effectiveness of Geno's machine has waxed and waned since then, but in the years when UConn isn't a total hegemon, I think the list of schools who are in the mix has grown a bit. Which is good for the game, of course.
Couldn't some of this be explained by the lack of funding/support/infrastructure for women's basketball in relation to the men's game at the youth level? The top talent is always going to exist no matter what, but with less coaching, less elite camps and overall less support, the talent just beneath the elite level is always going to struggle to standout.

I'm not exactly sure what the numbers are, but I assume that the girl's AAU circuit is not nearly as robust as the boy's AAU circuit; I imagine there are fewer AAU teams that tour nationally and Adidas hosts fewer camps. You could probably say the same about Girls HS Basketball; with fewer players being recruited by prep schools and playing all over the country in tournaments. Naturally, that creates less depth in the college game compared to the men. I think it isn't a coincidence that over the last 20 years as the grassroots system has exploded we are seeing more and more upsets in the NCAA Tournament.
 

Zososoxfan

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Tonight’s tip is at 9:20. F that.
It's unreasonably late. I used to be more sympathetic to trying to capture viewers from coast to coast, but ever since I learned that 2/3 of the population lives in the EST, the argument to push these games so late has made less sense to me. Especially when it's 2 EST teams in the final.
 

The Needler

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It's unreasonably late. I used to be more sympathetic to trying to capture viewers from coast to coast, but ever since I learned that 2/3 of the population lives in the EST, the argument to push these games so late has made less sense to me. Especially when it's 2 EST teams in the final.
It's less than half.

 

PaulinMyrBch

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I've been following women's basketball since the Diana Taurasi days, and my heuristic / belief over the years has been that there are only about ~8 legit teams in the country in any given year, who get all the top recruits and have legitimate chances at upsetting the big guns / winning it all. Some of those names change year to year, some of them stay the same, but the early tournament games seem to much more typically resemble UConn's 140-52 first-round blowout than the quality we've seen. Whereas, I think the men's field is a lot deeper, and the quality margin between the very top teams and the next tier or two being a lot smaller. So I only really watch the Women's tournament once it gets to the Elite 8, with not much more than a passing interest the first 3 rounds. But once you get down to those 8 teams, man, they can really fuckin play, and they give up nothing to the men in terms of mental toughness or teamwork. And you also don't have the one-and-done NBA dynamic that makes top men's teams more of a franken-team, where you hardly know some of the key players and they feel almost like stand-ins with no personal story attached.

edit: My impression is that in the 80s and 90s, that list of legit contending teams may have been even smaller, so frankly, 8 is pretty good. The effectiveness of Geno's machine has waxed and waned since then, but in the years when UConn isn't a total hegemon, I think the list of schools who are in the mix has grown a bit. Which is good for the game, of course.
The fact that all 4 1 seeds made it to the final four validates what you're saying. South Carolina is pretty good, won it last year, a 2 seed with the player of the year on their roster and they got smoked by UConn last week. It was a 30 point early lead and the just rolled. So 7-8 might be optimistic, but its in the ballpark, and the drop off to the next tier is large.
 

The Needler

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Mea culpa. I remembered the statistic incorrectly - over 75% of the country lives in the EST or CT time zone. Still doesn't make sense to me (from a $ perspective for the networks, advertisers, etc.) to want to make the game super late for 50% of the pop and pretty dang late for another 30%. Again, for two teams in the EST.
I mean, you would think that the networks would have done their homework on this point. They've calculated that the added viewership benefit gained by allowing people outside the east coast (which includes two of the top three and four of the top six largest markets) to get home from work outweighs the loss of viewers on the east coast who fall asleep or boycott watching. This seems to be borne out by the fact that the largest total viewership is after 11pm EDT.
 

uk_sox_fan

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I mean, you would think that the networks would have done their homework on this point. They've calculated that the added viewership benefit gained by allowing people outside the east coast (which includes two of the top three and four of the top six largest markets) to get home from work outweighs the loss of viewers on the east coast who fall asleep or boycott watching. This seems to be borne out by the fact that the largest total viewership is after 11pm EDT.
Not to mention those of us for whom the game starts at 2:10am...
 

BigSoxFan

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Good start for Michigan but I remain skeptical of their ability to score with Nova.
 

riboflav

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Michigan defends really well, can get hot beyond the arc, shares the ball well, plays off two feet, hard to blow out a team like that. But, still early.
 

BigSoxFan

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Michigan defends really well, can get hot beyond the arc, shares the ball well, plays off two feet, hard to blow out a team like that. But, still early.
Yeah I expect them to play well but for Nova to pull away at the end.
 

Deathofthebambino

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That is NOT a foul on Robertson. He "raised his elbow?" What? He was boxing a guy out. I realize it's a forgotten art, but that's what he was doing. Guy falls down and gets the call. Nova got 3 foul calls on that one trip down the floor. Let's see if it becomes an issue.
 

The Needler

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Officiating in this game has been helter skelter. They let everything go before the first TV time out, now they're calling everything.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Michigan needs to push the ball in transition constantly. They are really, really struggling to get good looks when it slows down and they get in their half court offense.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Brunson getting the Harden treatment from the refs. He creates the contact, and gets to the line. Can't defend him if he is going to get those calls.
 

PaulinMyrBch

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That is NOT a foul on Robertson. He "raised his elbow?" What? He was boxing a guy out. I realize it's a forgotten art, but that's what he was doing. Guy falls down and gets the call. Nova got 3 foul calls on that one trip down the floor. Let's see if it becomes an issue.
They got a few of those 3 calls, same trip down the floor against WVU, changed the game.
 

wonderland

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They got a few of those 3 calls, same trip down the floor against WVU, changed the game.
Ugh. They had Villanova on the ropes. WV’s intensity was wearing them down and then the refs took over. Getting Miles off the court for WVU was a killer.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Michigan going to need someone, anyone other than Wagner to make an outside shot tonight if they want to keep this close.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Woulda been nice if Duncan Robinson hadn't had two phantom fouls called on him in :15
I think Beilein has to take a chance and let him play before the half. They can't go into the locker room down by double digits. They are down 6 right now, and Nova's not exactly shooting well (they are 3/11 from 3, and Michigan is 2/12), but Nova can get hot quickly and turn a 6 point lead into 15 in minutes. Can't let that happen, have to keep putting points on the board, and they can't do it if Wagner is doubled, and they clog the lane.
 

Deathofthebambino

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That 3 by Brunson was the mini-dagger. The real one should come right after this timeout, to make it double digits at halftime.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Why wouldn't Michigan use a timeout with 2 seconds left to advance the ball, and get themselves a good look before the half? Is there a reason they don't, like it costs them a timeout they could use in the 2nd half?
 

Greg29fan

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Why wouldn't Michigan use a timeout with 2 seconds left to advance the ball, and get themselves a good look before the half? Is there a reason they don't, like it costs them a timeout they could use in the 2nd half?
No advancing the ball in the men's game
 

speedracer

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I think Beilein has to take a chance and let him play before the half. They can't go into the locker room down by double digits. They are down 6 right now, and Nova's not exactly shooting well (they are 3/11 from 3, and Michigan is 2/12), but Nova can get hot quickly and turn a 6 point lead into 15 in minutes. Can't let that happen, have to keep putting points on the board, and they can't do it if Wagner is doubled, and they clog the lane.
Totally agree, and not putting him in even for the last :02 was criminal.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Divincenzo took the game over. 18 points, 2 offensive rebounds, a block, an assist. And he didn't start the game. Insane.
 

BigSoxFan

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Michigan?

More like Missagain. This one is probably over. Defense did the job but their offense just doesn’t have enough scorers.

Going to need Wagner to be Dirk in the second half.
 

hawaiirsn

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The 6th man is taking over...
This game has totally been controlled by refs. Villanova is really lucky to be up IMO.

Do people enjoy watching Brunson? Obviously the 3s look nice but I am so over his push off drive game. Finally got a whistle for one, but could be called for an offensive foul every time he has the ball inside the arc.
 

Zososoxfan

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The reffing was really weird for a short period and it cost UM about 3-4 bad calls on defense, and 1-2 missed calls on offense. This team needs to heat up from outside if they want a shot, but if the offense can get into a rhythm (props to Wright for going 3/4 press) the D will keep them in it. Brunson is Harden Jr. and I don't like it. Devincenzo is a goddamn wizard. Not fair. Reminded me of the Louisville white dude who hit 3 3s at the end of the first half of the last NCG, but he did it for the majority of the half...and has done it all season.
 

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This game has totally been controlled by refs. Villanova is really lucky to be up IMO.

Do people enjoy watching Brunson? Obviously the 3s look nice but I am so over his push off drive game. Finally got a whistle for one, but could be called for an offensive foul every time he has the ball inside the arc.
I love watching him
 

Deathofthebambino

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This game has totally been controlled by refs. Villanova is really lucky to be up IMO.

Do people enjoy watching Brunson? Obviously the 3s look nice but I am so over his push off drive game. Finally got a whistle for one, but could be called for an offensive foul every time he has the ball inside the arc.
That's what I was talking about when I said he gets the Harden treatment. Every time he goes to the hoop, he initiates the contact with the defender, and 9 times out of 10, he gets the call. In most instances, there shouldn't be a whistle at all, IMO. Just let them play, but it most certainly shouldn't be a defensive foul. You can't guard him if he's allowed to just run into you and get a call. Harden does the same thing in the NBA night after night, which is why he takes like 15 free throws every other night.
 

Deathofthebambino

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If you rewind it, there was a play where Brunson had the ball near the baseline near the hoop and missed a layup. Instead of focusing on making the shot, he jumped into the defender to try to get the call, and then missed the layup. The refs let it go, but that's the type of call he usually gets that infuriates me.
 

hawaiirsn

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If you rewind it, there was a play where Brunson had the ball near the baseline near the hoop and missed a layup. Instead of focusing on making the shot, he jumped into the defender to try to get the call, and then missed the layup. The refs let it go, but that's the type of call he usually gets that infuriates me.
Totally agree. I'm glad it's not just me. Obviously Harden has some game outside of that, but he doesn't ever really have to do anything but initiate contact and make free throws. I'm not so sure Brunson has much other game off the dribble and makes me extra skeptical of him as an NBA prospect.

It's frustrating, because I really like Bridges' game, and I like watching Paschall and Spellman too, but in games like this its all Brunson and Divincenzo and is less interesting.

Either that or my obnoxious Nova grad friend here has just poisoned me into being a total hater. I get animated nova "stickers" sent to me via text daily.