Felger and Mazz - Creating False Naratives one day at a time

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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riboflav said:
 
They've had many, many battles. The last one I remember Gammons actually won, big time. He called Felger wanting to get rid of Lackey in Aug. 2012 "stupid." Gammons called Lackey a great teammate and totally accepted and liked by everyone in the clubhouse.
 
Assertions which have been backed up again and again by the current players, particularly Buchholz.
 

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I heard the Gammons apppearance on T&R.  He was a dick, no question about it.
 

riboflav

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Can someone refresh my memory on the Gammons beatdown of Felger back on EEI? I recall hearing it live several years ago but have completely forgotten its substance.
 

riboflav

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riboflav said:
Can someone refresh my memory on the Gammons beatdown of Felger back on EEI? I recall hearing it live several years ago but have completely forgotten its substance.
 
 
EDIT: NM - I found the transcript.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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Billy Jo Robidoux said:
I heard the 5:00 segment yesterday.  Felger called Gammons a "dink," not a dick.  I would have preferred "dickhead."
 
He did? Dink is a Felgerism and I can completely buy that. It sounded like "dick" because he was sorta muffled. Good to know.
 

soxfan121

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F&M talking about that Jones penalty yesterday as another example of Belichick's arrogance.  So predictable.
 
After BB's press conference this morning - where he admitted to "coaching it wrong" - it was either arrogance or stupidity. And BB ain't stupid. 
 
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I'm shifting down-dial for the week. In the top hour of World Series week, they were just going at the Patriots for looking for gray areas in rules, yada yada yada. Just awful stuff. I gave Salk and Holley a good shot a while ago and it didn't stick, but I couldn't do it anymore with Felger and Mazz. EEI's carrying the Farrell press conference. This will be the place to be this week.
 

steveluck7

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Buffalo Head said:
St. Louis has just been declared the PED capital of the universe.
It's been at least 2 years that Felger has been busting on St. Louis penchant for "annually bringing up some converted IF, bearded, reliever throwing 100" with the subtext of PED use so this is nothing new, we'll just hear it a lot over the next 7-10 days
 

rodderick

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steveluck7 said:
It's been at least 2 years that Felger has been busting on St. Louis penchant for "annually bringing up some converted IF, bearded, reliever throwing 100" with the subtext of PED use so this is nothing new, we'll just hear it a lot over the next 7-10 days
Maybe, I don't know, they're just really good at scouting and developing talent? If PEDs were capable of making middling position players become shutdown relievers who sit 98 mph, you wouldn't be seeing those guys appear only in St. Louis. It's just hilarious to me how some people believe PEDs are like this magical juice.
 

soxfan121

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Maybe, I don't know, they're just really good at scouting and developing talent? If PEDs were capable of making middling position players become shutdown relievers who sit 98 mph, you wouldn't be seeing those guys appear only in St. Louis. It's just hilarious to me how some people believe PEDs are like this magical juice.
 
No one, and I mean NO ONE, makes this argument. Felger certainly does not make this argument - he thinks PEDs are pervasive and can be found everywhere professional sports is played (for money, in case professional wasn't explicit enough). 
 
As for the "proof" on St. Louis....Tony LaRussa. Oakland was the epicenter of PED use in the 80s and early 90s, then McGwire and LaRussa moved to STL in the late 90s and since then STL has had one heck of a rejuvenation machine for players who had failed in other places. But I'm sure it's just they are good at scouting and developing talent. That's definitely it. Nothing to see here...move along.
 

rodderick

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soxfan121 said:
 
No one, and I mean NO ONE, makes this argument. Felger certainly does not make this argument - he thinks PEDs are pervasive and can be found everywhere professional sports is played (for money, in case professional wasn't explicit enough). 
 
As for the "proof" on St. Louis....Tony LaRussa. Oakland was the epicenter of PED use in the 80s and early 90s, then McGwire and LaRussa moved to STL in the late 90s and since then STL has had one heck of a rejuvenation machine for players who had failed in other places. But I'm sure it's just they are good at scouting and developing talent. That's definitely it. Nothing to see here...move along.
 
So first you say that everyone does PEDs, and then you infer the Cardinals' success in developing players can be directly attributed to PEDs. The first sentence directly contradicts the second. If every team juices, that creates an equal playing field in terms of player development. If the Cardinals, in a PED heavy environment, develop more young players than your average MLB team, is it because they are very good at scouting and coaching, or are their PEDs just better than everyone else's?
 
Trying to discredit the Cardinals' success by making thinly veiled accusations about PED usage, as if that's the determining reason as to why they are perennial contenders, is childish.
 

Hendu for Kutch

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soxfan121 said:
 
No one, and I mean NO ONE, makes this argument. Felger certainly does not make this argument - he thinks PEDs are pervasive and can be found everywhere professional sports is played (for money, in case professional wasn't explicit enough). 
 
As for the "proof" on St. Louis....Tony LaRussa. Oakland was the epicenter of PED use in the 80s and early 90s, then McGwire and LaRussa moved to STL in the late 90s and since then STL has had one heck of a rejuvenation machine for players who had failed in other places. But I'm sure it's just they are good at scouting and developing talent. That's definitely it. Nothing to see here...move along.
 
Concerning the bold, I'm struggling to think of who this could refer to on the current team?  Just about every important player other than Beltran and Holliday are homegrown, and both of those guys were damn good before they came to STL.
 

soxfan121

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First, I'm not Michael Felger. He's far more handsome than I am. 
 
Second, I simply clarified Felger's argument. For people who tune in rarely, it is possible to misconstrue his polemics about (say) STL and think he is making a limited, focused argument. He is not. He truly believes EVERYONE in professional sports in on PEDs. Your mileage may vary on the truthiness of that sentiment but it's important to note that he's not making an argument about the Cardinals specifically, he's pushing a general agenda and adding St. Louis's baseball team to his (lengthy) list of evidence. Again, YMMV. 
 
Third, for someone making a grammatical argument, you sure have misread what I wrote. Again...clarifying for you Felger's general argument. 
 
Fourth, if you don't think someone on the Cardinals and someone on the Red Sox is using PEDs, you're the "childish" one here. It's 2013. PEDs have been in the game for more than 50 years and chemistry just gets better and better. Pretend that everything and everyone is clean if you want - it's not my role to tell you how to soothe your mind. But you're wrong. Every team has at least a few guys getting some enhancement. It's the world we live in. 
 
Fifth, you might not want to believe it but the circumstantial evidence about LaRussa & PEDs isn't new or controversial. And there's nothing "thinly veiled" about it. St. Louis has, for the last 15 years, employed several known PED users and has had a REMARKABLE ability to rejuvenate the careers of guys who failed elsewhere. You can chalk that up to great scouting, coaching and development. Good for you. I will not willfully blind myself to the effects of chemistry on my favorite games. 
 

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Hendu for Kutch said:
 
Concerning the bold, I'm struggling to think of who this could refer to on the current team?  Just about every important player other than Beltran and Holliday are homegrown, and both of those guys were damn good before they came to STL.
 
Respectfully, how the fuck would I know? Again - not Felger. He specifically mentioned Kyle Lohse and Jason Motte, and while the former has moved on the latter is on the Cards DL. 
 
Hey, maybe every guy on the Cards is clean and guys like Rosenthal, Martinez and Mujica throw "100" because they've got incredible, God-gifted arms. 
 

Hendu for Kutch

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soxfan121 said:
 
Respectfully, how the fuck would I know? Again - not Felger. He specifically mentioned Kyle Lohse and Jason Motte, and while the former has moved on the latter is on the Cards DL. 
 
Hey, maybe every guy on the Cards is clean and guys like Rosenthal, Martinez and Mujica throw "100" because they've got incredible, God-gifted arms. 
 
Maybe that straw man should ask the wizard for a brain!  Heyoh!
 
I specifically asked about the bolded statement and how it aligned with this year's team.  Nobody on this team was brought in from outside the organization and suddenly rejuvenated by playing in St. Louis, so unless he was talking specifically about St. Louis teams of the past and not this year's team (which would seem an odd thing to do), he's full of shit.
 
The Lohse and Motte examples don't hold up either.  Motte was homegrown and Lohse was with the Cardinals for 4 or 5 years before having a breakout season.  Did they forget where they kept the drugs the first 3?  Did they give him a year's supply as a parting gift, since he's been largely the same guy in MIL that he was the past two seasons?
 
Make whatever claims you want about young guys throwing 100 and whether they're clean or not, but my question had nothing to do with that.
 

soxfan121

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Hendu for Kutch said:
Make whatever claims you want about young guys throwing 100 and whether they're clean or not, but my question had nothing to do with that.
 
Again...for the fourth time in the last four posts...I am relating what FELGER has said. YOUR question was about what HE said...so I related that to YOU. 
 
HE made all those statements. Respectfully - what the fuck do I have to do to make clear this isn't MY argument? YOU may now light the Felger straw man on fire. 
 

Hendu for Kutch

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soxfan121 said:
 
Again...for the fourth time in the last four posts...I am relating what FELGER has said. YOUR question was about what HE said...so I related that to YOU. 
 
HE made all those statements. Respectfully - what the fuck do I have to do to make clear this isn't MY argument? YOU may now light the Felger straw man on fire. 
 
Apologies, then.  I thought the first half of your post was about what Felger said and the second half was yours.  You're kinda jumping back and forth in your posts between Felger's voice and your own, it can be tricky to follow.
 

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Super excited to tune in today while at work trying to pass the hours, and instead I'm greeted with Chicken Little Buchholz stuff. Let's move on, I'll deal with Game 3 or 4 when it's Game 3 or 4. Right now I want to hear about TONIGHT, and instead I'm treated to Mazz's bellyaching. If one could pair Mazz and Salk, we could just avoid that show and station all together.
 

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BellhornsBiatch said:
Super excited to tune in today while at work trying to pass the hours, and instead I'm greeted with Chicken Little Buchholz stuff.
 
Let's move on, I'll deal with Game 3 or 4 when it's Game 3 or 4. Right now I want to hear about TONIGHT, and instead I'm treated to Mazz's bellyaching. If one could pair Mazz and Salk,
 
we could just avoid that show and station all together.
 
Super excited to have sex with 12 hot women tonight so I spent the afternoon sticking my pecker into a meat grinder.
 
I can't think of anything that would shrivel the 4-hour erection of a pending world series than listening to those or any of the other clowns on sports talk radio.
 

ForKeeps

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Marbleheader said:
Still killing Buchholz for being a wuss, ten minutes after Farrell said he is ready to start.
 
Oh god, it's hilarious. I caught the first minute or so of the show, they were in full-on meltdown mode, ready to treat Buchholz like the Anti-Christ for four hours. Just put the TV back on and now we're delicately shifting the narrative to, "Well why does this stuff even get out there?" as if that's some kind of reflection on Buchholz, because of course we can't just say, "Oops, looks like we bit too soon", you know cause that would be boring radio.
 

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Not only that are you aware that Drew hit 253? He sucks.
 
I pretty much don't listen anymore but was driving quite a bit today. I actually yelled at my radio that the Sox were in the World Series, it was crazy.
Only Tony Mazz was remotely reasonable and I can't stand him.
 

SidelineCameras

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Tony: Carlos Beltran "decided that he didn't want to play anymore" without even an at bat. They tapped out in the third inning of game one.
Felger: "You bang your chest into the wall and you're done? For a bruise?"
 
So see everyone, they're DBs to everyone, not just local teams. (And I say this as a fan of this show).
 
Now citing Hanley Ramirez as an admiral example for giving it a go in the NLCS.
 

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I don't think this has gotten enough play actually.  Its the fucking World Series, at least try to play through it Mr. Clutch!!
 

SidelineCameras

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Merkle's Boner said:
I don't think this has gotten enough play actually.  Its the fucking World Series, at least try to play through it Mr. Clutch!!
 
I think the fact that he went to the hospital during the game gives him some protection there, at least from a "how the media chooses to cover it" approach. Beltran looked like he hit that wall pretty good, and it was damn cold out there last night. Or put another way - not everyone is Patrice Bergeron.
 
It is an interesting debate. But for the purposes of this thread and everyone who thinks they get on the local teams unfairly, this shows that they shit on the visiting teams too.
 

Nuf Ced

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Got in the car yesterday around 5. Turned on the radio long enough to hear Mazz insinuate that the Red Sox are stealing signs when playing at Fenway because their home BA is higher than the road this year. And Felger's like, "Yeah, there's something definitely going on there."
 
Turned the radio off. 
 

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Nuf Ced said:
Got in the car yesterday around 5. Turned on the radio long enough to hear Mazz insinuate that the Red Sox are stealing signs when playing at Fenway because their home BA is higher than the road this year. And Felger's like, "Yeah, there's something definitely going on there."
 
Turned the radio off. 
You definitely didn't listen long enough... they were talking about the Cardinals
 

Hendu for Kutch

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I say this as someone who no longer listens, but does enjoy reading this thread.  My problem isn't necessarily that they're unfair or too harsh on the local team vis a vis everyone else.  That's more of a symptom than the true problem.
 
It's the way they approach sports.  I watch sports to be entertained.  For fun.  Sure, there's passion behind it, but I don't come at it from a point of a morality play or wanting to judge the people involved.  It's sport, I'm watching to see athletic achievements and, hopefully, my team win, not as a vessel to vent my anger.
 
The idea that everyone who fails during a sporting event is a "disgrace", or "worthless", or a "fraud" is stupid to me.  Miguel Cabrera is a disgrace because he struck out.  Nevermind that he's clearly injured and has historically K'ed in about 1 out of every 6 at-bats anyways.  He's a disgrace for failing.
 
These guys have no idea how bad Beltran is hurt.  Maybe he can't lift his arms over his head, for all they know.  But are they going to wait to find out or see how he looks?  Hell no!  He just didn't want to play because he's a pansy!
 
It's lazy and boring, frankly, and it completely oversimplifies everything that's going on in the game. 
 

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SidelineCameras said:
 
I think the fact that he went to the hospital during the game gives him some protection there, at least from a "how the media chooses to cover it" approach. Beltran looked like he hit that wall pretty good, and it was damn cold out there last night. Or put another way - not everyone is Patrice Bergeron.
 
It is an interesting debate. But for the purposes of this thread and everyone who thinks they get on the local teams unfairly, this shows that they shit on the visiting teams too.
 
I bruised my ribs once in a sledding mishap. Without the help of painkillers I could not get moving from a stationary position. if I was sitting I could not stand up. If I was laying down, I could not sit up.   My guess is that a guy who came back from a nearly deadly collision with Mike Cameron, as well  as knee surgery is not a pussy.
 

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Hendu for Kutch said:
I say this as someone who no longer listens, but does enjoy reading this thread.  My problem isn't necessarily that they're unfair or too harsh on the local team vis a vis everyone else.  That's more of a symptom than the true problem.
 
It's the way they approach sports.  I watch sports to be entertained.  For fun.  Sure, there's passion behind it, but I don't come at it from a point of a morality play or wanting to judge the people involved.  It's sport, I'm watching to see athletic achievements and, hopefully, my team win, not as a vessel to vent my anger.
 
Fun, entertaining sports talk without the "venting of anger" are few and far between because it is boring radio. Four hours of "did you see that? it was AWESOME" is over simplifying (as well as invoking the Chris Farley Show) but there's no way to get four hours of interesting, listenable sports talk radio without the occasional "venting of anger". 
 
Dan Patrick probably comes closest, with these caveats: 1. National content. 2. Access to guests. 3. Very commercialized. I like DP and listen when I can but it is what it is - shallow banter about the "top headlines" with lots of sponsored segments and highly vetted callers.
 
I don't think a show that eschews negativity and celebrates the "fun and entertaining" side of sports can do 20 hours a week. Toucher & Rich, sans Toucher's acerbic anger, is boring radio. And I say that while also thinking Rich is the single most talented voice in the market and a big fan of the show in general. But when it's just Rich's positivity...it's boring and not nearly as good. This is a fairly popular line of thinking in the T&R thread, so I'm not out on a limb here. 
 
The balance of fun and venting is what a show needs to do correctly. F&M veer more toward the venting than the fun, possibly because both hosts are - by personal nature - neurotic, whiny human beings. It's a poor mix. Paired with anyone of a different disposition - Beetle, Wiggins, Flynn, even Callahan - and Felger's listenability goes through the roof. His carping gets tempered by the other person's presence. Mazz amplifies it because Mazz is the echo chamber of sports talk. He just repeats Felger, loudly, and rarely offers anything of a dissenting opinion or tone. 
 

Hendu for Kutch

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Sure, I'll agree with that.  I don't need everything to be unicorns and show ponies, and strong opinions are OK.  I love T&R, because I feel like it comes from an honest place, even when it's uninformed.  Frustration is OK, and even blaming people for a loss is OK. 
 
But to listen to them...Buchholz is a pansy.  Belichick is arrogant.  Beltran is a pussy.  Moss is a fraud.  John Henry is a phony.  Brady is selfish.  Lackey is a jerk.  Beckett is a fraud.  Bob Kraft is cheap.  Garnett is a fake tough guy.  Ellsbury doesn't care. And on and on and on.
 
At some point, maybe the simple explanation of why a guy isn't playing is because he's actually hurt and the team/player know he won't be effective.  Maybe a decision is made because the team, correctly or incorrectly, believes it gives them the best chance to win rather than trying to prove they're smarter than everyone else.
 
I mean, I remember listening to them and thinking these guys think everyone who plays sports is a lying, cheating, egomaniacal, underhanded, lazy, soft asshole (except Patrice Bergeron).  It's a hell of a prism to view the sports world through.
 

soxfan121

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Hendu for Kutch said:
But to listen to them...
 
Respectfully, I do listen to them. And you do not. And while there is significant negativity, it is not the one-sided shitfest you claim. You've taken the 65% and turned it into 98% in your memory. 
 
For example, they talked at length today of how the Red Sox MADE the Cardinals "pee down their leg", praised the approach of the team/manager and had a spirited debate (between Felger & Beetle) about whether Matheny's post-game comments were silly (Felger, no - Beetle, yes). And distilling it down that far makes it seem more negative than it was. 
 

Marbleheader

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I tuned in today to see how they could be negative after killing STL in game 1. How many times did Felger say the World Series is now just a contest to see who can cheat the best? I listened to one segment, then changed the channel. He must have said it 5 or 6 times in a five minute span. What bothered me most was that Beetle was in lockstep with him.  Someone has to challenge him when he says that crap.
 

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Beetle was egging him on to make fun of him, not agreeing with him.

However, I do think the fact that they just had a two minute discussion about the umps seeing the kozma play on the jumbotron without even knowing that it wasn't shown in the park is a bit stupid.
 

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Felger giving backhanded credit to Buchholz right now.  Credit for getting guys out with that stuff last night, but kind of shitting all over him for not pitching in Game 3 instead.
 

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You just hope that the Sox mgmnt doesn't make knee-jerk decisions in the offseason based on these games, win or lose.    People get hurt and play through it, people get just plain worn out this time of year.   The Felgers and Mazzes of the world want people shitcanned and it's just not the way to run a ballclub.
 

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Last night I jumped into the car at 5:00 and was prepared for an hour or so's worth of negative radio for the commute home (it would probably be less because I'd bounce over to Salk and Holley) and lo and behold all I heard was platitudes and gushing from Felger and Mazz about the 2013 Red Sox. Felger felt that even if they lost Game 5, they were still going to win the Series. Massarotti was tripping over his words talking about how much he loved this team, the heart of this team, their competitiveness and how they were set apart from any Red Sox team he'd ever seen in terms of their will to win. Even when they went down negative lane about Buchholz, they only went a little bit.
 
This was pom-pom radio in the 5:00 hour. I have to imagine they were like this from 2:00 on, where was the ignorant shit stirring?
 

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John Marzano Olympic Hero said:
Last night I jumped into the car at 5:00 and was prepared for an hour or so's worth of negative radio for the commute home (it would probably be less because I'd bounce over to Salk and Holley) and lo and behold all I heard was platitudes and gushing from Felger and Mazz about the 2013 Red Sox. Felger felt that even if they lost Game 5, they were still going to win the Series. Massarotti was tripping over his words talking about how much he loved this team, the heart of this team, their competitiveness and how they were set apart from any Red Sox team he'd ever seen in terms of their will to win. Even when they went down negative lane about Buchholz, they only went a little bit.
 
This was pom-pom radio in the 5:00 hour. I have to imagine they were like this from 2:00 on, where was the ignorant shit stirring?
Peavy was on a bus out of town...get anything you can for him
 

Marbleheader

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I, for the first time in a long time stayed with Felger and Mazz on my drive home. It wasn't all sunshine and roses, but it wasn't the contrived controversy and negativity that has been the norm. Very refreshing.
 

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oh my god, the sox are on the eve of a possible world series and these two clowns are talking about how john lackey was an asshole last year and that we should be skeptical of the numbers ortiz is putting up.  CAN WE ENJOY ANYTHING FOR EVEN TWO FREAKING MINUTES????
 

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Corsi said:
oh my god, the sox are on the eve of a possible world series and these two clowns are talking about how john lackey was an asshole last year and that we should be skeptical of the numbers ortiz is putting up.  CAN WE ENJOY ANYTHING FOR EVEN TWO FREAKING MINUTES????
 
Ugh.
 
1. They are talking about Lackey's refusal to acknowledge the crowd at Fenway because of how he was treated by the fans over the last three years. And they're right - John Lackey is a world-class asshole, he was deservedly shit on by fans for his performance (on and off the field) for the previous three seasons, and while he has the right to be aggrieved by the boos he endured, he also is solely responsible for those boos. Even if he throws a no-hitter tonight, John Lackey is still a world-class asshole. He gets cheered for performing well and he was booed for being utterly horrible for the first three years of his Boston tenure. How is that different from any number of John Lackey discussion threads on this site? (hint: it's not)
 
2. They are talking about Ortiz being questioned about his <ahem> performance this season NATIONALLY. They introduced the topic with a clip from Colin Cowherd's show - a nationally syndicated program on ESPNRadio. It is a topic of conversation in every market that is covering this World Series because Ortiz is putting up Bondsian numbers. Sox fans might take umbrage at this but those same offended flowers would be the first to shit on a Yankee (read: Arod) doing the same thing. Hypocrites, all of us. I love David Ortiz and I'm sure he's clean. Because I'm a Sox fan. So fuck Arod.
 
3. This discussion has taken the last segment - 15 minutes. Prior to that, there was TWO FREAKING HOURS of "enjoying" the World Series, the upcoming game and the performance of the team. TWO FREAKING HOURS of shiny, happy people...15 minutes of questioning Lackey and Ortiz. And yet again, the small amount of negativity is what people carp about, not the TWO FREAKING HOURS of good sports discussion.