February 2020 NBA Game Thread

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MDLzera
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you're talking about the Lou Will / Hayward corner-3 play?

Once TNT deigned to show us the replay, it was clear the foul occurred before (well before) the gather. The call was late and things were poorly explained and we were all having fun mocking Scott Foster, but I'm not sure it was a wrong call.
 

tims4wins

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Just wanted to point out that Zion hasn't hit a 3 since his first game (4-4 that night, 0-7 since). But he's been freaking awesome.

His free throws have shown a huge improvement since the first 4 games: 6-17 (.353), vs. 45-61 since (.738). If he maintains 70-75% FT he's going to be nearly impossible to stop for a while. He also has 61 FTA in his last 6 games, over 10 per game, in roughly 30 MPG. Only Giannis and Harden average over 10 FTA per game among qualifiers. So yeah. Beast.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Wiggins has actually improved this year after pretty much not improving at all since entering his rookie year so there's that. It's mostly in assist % but it's a pretty huge jump. My comments about the Wolves improving is mostly about getting a bunch of depth back and losing a player that has overstayed his welcome. I really like HG too, though I like Beasley more. They got 2, arguably 3 starters in the deal.
Did Wiggins magically decide last summer he was going to improve or was his mini-leap a function of getting the hell out of Thibs iso-offense where his role was to score out of iso rather than create in more of a motion offense? Not to beat the dead horse of fit being a key component but.......
 

HomeRunBaker

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you're talking about the Lou Will / Hayward corner-3 play?

Once TNT deigned to show us the replay, it was clear the foul occurred before (well before) the gather. The call was late and things were poorly explained and we were all having fun mocking Scott Foster, but I'm not sure it was a wrong call.
I’m scared to visit the game thread for this but it was absolutely 100% the right call. It also goes to show how skilled these officials are that both were emphatic that they had it right in the moment prior to replay.
 

the moops

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Did Wiggins magically decide last summer he was going to improve or was his mini-leap a function of getting the hell out of Thibs iso-offense where his role was to score out of iso rather than create in more of a motion offense? Not to beat the dead horse of fit being a key component but.......
Going from completely terrible to being almost completely terrible sure is a low bar for a "mini-leap"
 

Sam Ray Not

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(Per 36) 23.4 pts on .543 ts / 5.3 reb / 3.9 ast, +3.8 net on-off at age 24 doesn't strike me as "almost completely terrible," but YMMV. The assist rate and scoring efficiency in particular can pretty reasonably be called mini-leaps.

(I won't post his numbers in his three GS games because SSS, but they're hilarious.)
 

HomeRunBaker

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(Per 36) 23.4 pts on .543 ts / 5.3 reb / 3.9 ast, +3.8 net on-off at age 24 doesn't strike me as "almost completely terrible," but YMMV. The assist rate and scoring efficiency in particular can pretty reasonably be called mini-leaps.

(I won't post his numbers in his three GS games because SSS, but they're hilarious.)
It's a statistical mini-leap but you can't convince me that he isn't the same player he's been over the past couple years with Thibs. I'll call it a system-leap/change of stale environment-leap along with the general maturation a player makes as he exits his early 20's.
 

Sam Ray Not

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It's a statistical mini-leap but you can't convince me that he isn't the same player he's been over the past couple years with Thibs. I'll call it a system-leap/change of stale environment-leap along with the general maturation a player makes as he exits his early 20's.
Yeah, by age 24-25 most players are what they are in terms of physicality and skills. "System leap" is probably a good way to put it with Wiggins (though obviously it's still super early times in GS).

Here's another one that looks like a bit like a "System Leap"...

(Per 36)
Curry age 24 (under Jackson): 23.7 pts on .610 ts
Curry age 25 (under Kerr yr 1): 26.2 pts on .638 ts
Curry age 26 (under Kerr yr 2): 31.7 pts on .669 ts
 

Sam Ray Not

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I'm fully prepared to get the crap kicked out of me for this, but here goes...

Player A
• 6'-9", 7'-1" wingspan, born July 1997 (22 y.o.)
• Former #14 pick, switchable athletic freak C who dunks all day (2.4 dunks per 36)
• (per 36) 16.5 pts on .613 ts / .681 ft / 10.8 reb / 5.1 ast / 1.3 stl / 1.2 blk

Player B
• 6'-9", 7'-1" wingspan, born July 1997 (22 y.o.)
• Former #8 pick, switchable athletic freak C who dunks all day (2.9 dunks per 36)
• (per 36) 16.3 pts on .596 ts / .756 ft / 10.7 reb / 3.2 ast / 1.2 stl / 2.0 blk

Hint: Player A is "The Perfect Center for the Modern NBA" (per 538) and "The Fiercest, Best Player NBA You Don't Know" (per Zach Lowe). Player B is a walk-on scrub who was released by the crappy Warriors and allowed to clear waivers by 29 other teams before returning.
 

Kliq

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Per 36 numbers are always going to be misleading when you compare someone averaging 36 mpg to someone averaging 20 mpg, not to mention one person is doing it on a cellar-dweller and the other on a fringe contender.
 

lovegtm

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I'm fully prepared to get the crap kicked out of me for this, but here goes...

Player A
• 6'-9", 7'-1" wingspan, born July 1997 (22 y.o.)
• Former #14 pick, switchable athletic freak C who dunks all day (2.4 dunks per 36)
• (per 36) 16.5 pts on .613 ts / .681 ft / 10.8 reb / 5.1 ast / 1.3 stl / 1.2 blk

Player B
• 6'-9", 7'-1" wingspan, born July 1997 (22 y.o.)
• Former #8 pick, switchable athletic freak C who dunks all day (2.9 dunks per 36)
• (per 36) 16.3 pts on .596 ts / .756 ft / 10.7 reb / 3.2 ast / 1.2 stl / 2.0 blk

Hint: Player A is "The Perfect Center for the Modern NBA" (per 538) and "The Fiercest, Best Player NBA You Don't Know" (per Zach Lowe). Player B is a walk-on scrub who was released by the crappy Warriors and allowed to clear waivers by 29 other teams before returning.
Now, as an exercise, you should try to figure out why NBA GMs value those two so differently, starting from the assumption that they’re not morons who are light-years behind.
 

Sam Ray Not

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Now, as an exercise, you should try to figure out why NBA GMs value those two so differently, starting from the assumption that they’re not morons who are light-years behind.
Haha, yeah, I did that already. Here are a few hypotheses:

1. "Per 36" (as Kliq notes). Though I think the Millsap Doctrine totally applies to Chriss, since he's a young, elite athlete who can run all day, has a reasonably low foul rate (3.7 per 36), and has been playing starters' minutes since the WCS trade (and playing even better in bigger minutes than he had before).
2. Winning team v. losing team (as Kliq notes).
3. Chriss got tagged with the "bust" label early in his career — in part by being miscast at age 19-20 as a perimeter player in a dysfunctional Suns system — and those are hard to shed.
4. EST bias.
5. Most GMs are not morons, but even the smartest ones make mistakes.
6. Chriss apparently told his agent that he didn't want to play anywhere but GS, which was presumably made clear to potential suitors.

Marquese Chriss is freaking awesome, tho — you guys would love him if he were on the Celtics. As I noted, he does pretty much everything well: rebound, pass, defend the rim, switch on D, see the floor, pass, run the floor, catch, finish at the rim, shoot FTs. High motor and (seemingly) high character. He went head-to-head against Bam as the starter a few days ago, and basically played him to a standstill. Also BBQ chicken'd Derrick Jones, Jr.

The only thing he doesn't do well (yet?) is hit threes, but he at least takes them occasionally, and his FT% and misspent youth as perimeter player suggest some promise in that regard (more than Bam has, anyway). For his part, Bam's a bit heavier and (to date) the better passer and overall defender. Chriss has great tools on the defensive end, tho (as the block and steal numbers suggest).

Anyway, taken together, I think the two players are pretty interesting illustration of the fine line that sometimes exists between a guy who nobody wants and a league darling who's arguably top 10-20 in terms of trade value.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Why does Chriss get less than 20 minutes a night on a terrible Warriors team?

I've heard he's actually low character, low motor but things change. There's plenty of articles suggesting he's a cancer and had a very poor attitude. Maybe he realized he was pissing all his talent away.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Yeah, by age 24-25 most players are what they are in terms of physicality and skills. "System leap" is probably a good way to put it with Wiggins (though obviously it's still super early times in GS).

Here's another one that looks like a bit like a "System Leap"...

(Per 36)
Curry age 24 (under Jackson): 23.7 pts on .610 ts
Curry age 25 (under Kerr yr 1): 26.2 pts on .638 ts
Curry age 26 (under Kerr yr 2): 31.7 pts on .669 ts
It’s a safe generality to assume a player has pretty much developed his reputation or his “game” by the time his rookie deal is up and then it’s all about fit to maximize his potential. The thing with Curry was that he continued showing improvement throughout the Jackson regime as his greatest weakness was improving (overall body strength) but kept being shut down by ankle problems. Wiggins never showed any improvement under Thibs which is imo due in part to his role in Thibs system.

Is bowiac in here to show a DARKO comparison of these two through the first 5-6 years of their career? I’m guessing Curry shows some incline prior to taking off while Wiggins appears dead in the form of a flatline up until his first offseason in a different system.
 

the moops

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I have no real opinion on Chriss, but just peeked at his b-ref page and looked at game logs. On 2/5 against the Nets, in 28 minutes, he was a -42!! How the fuck is thst even possible.
 

Sam Ray Not

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Why does Chriss get less than 20 minutes a night on a terrible Warriors team? I've heard he's actually low character, low motor but things change. There's plenty of articles suggesting he's a cancer and had a very poor attitude. Maybe he realized he was pissing all his talent away.
The 20 mpg is dragged down by the early season when he was backing up Cauley-Stein. He's been getting 25-30 mpg as the starter since they moved WCS to Dallas. And as noted, playing mostly great, though the sample is still pretty small.

As far as attitude: yeah, I'd assume he was humbled by getting dangerously close to being out of the league at 22. He never seems remotely lazy to me, but he does seem like an occasional hothead who likes to chirp at the refs and other players. Being mentored by Draymond will surely wean him of that. ;-P
 

Sam Ray Not

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I have no real opinion on Chriss, but just peeked at his b-ref page and looked at game logs. On 2/5 against the Nets, in 28 minutes, he was a -42!! How the fuck is that even possible.
Lol, I was at that game. A 41 point beatdown — probably their most miserable performance in a miserable season. It was also the night before the trade deadline; and the team had just announced the Burks + Robinson trade, which Kerr said postgame had gone off like a bomb in the locker room, and affected the team's performance.

DLo did Chriss one better, though ... a majestic -48, lol. I didn't want them to pull the trigger on a DLo deal till the offseason (and was hoping they could do a bit better than Wiggins + #1 pick), but was basically done with DLo after that showing. If nothing else, I thought he'd be motivated to show out against his old team at Barclay's with Mr. Chemistry on the shelf.
 
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DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I have no real opinion on Chriss, but just peeked at his b-ref page and looked at game logs. On 2/5 against the Nets, in 28 minutes, he was a -42!! How the fuck is thst even possible.
I have no skin in the Chriss (or Bender) game but...

1. Single game +/- is kind of useless as we all know (yet it still does get quoted an awful lot around these parts)

and

2. Its the '19-20 Warriors. SRN addresses this above
 

lovegtm

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...
Anyway, taken together, I think the two players are pretty interesting illustration of the fine line that sometimes exists between a guy who nobody wants and a league darling who's arguably top 10-20 in terms of trade value.
I agree that there's a VERY fine line in the NBA, however I don't think Chriss is a particularly good example of this.

All impact metrics show Chriss as a pretty big negative, with Bam being a big positive. This also matches the eye test and the GM test.

I agree that Bam being better doesn't match the gold-colored-glasses test or the naive-comparison-of-per-36-rate-stats test, but you'll forgive me for being slightly skeptical of those two.
 

benhogan

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I'm fully prepared to get the crap kicked out of me for this, but here goes...

Player A
• 6'-9", 7'-1" wingspan, born July 1997 (22 y.o.)
• Former #14 pick, switchable athletic freak C who dunks all day (2.4 dunks per 36)
• (per 36) 16.5 pts on .613 ts / .681 ft / 10.8 reb / 5.1 ast / 1.3 stl / 1.2 blk

Player B
• 6'-9", 7'-1" wingspan, born July 1997 (22 y.o.)
• Former #8 pick, switchable athletic freak C who dunks all day (2.9 dunks per 36)
• (per 36) 16.3 pts on .596 ts / .756 ft / 10.7 reb / 3.2 ast / 1.2 stl / 2.0 blk

Hint: Player A is "The Perfect Center for the Modern NBA" (per 538) and "The Fiercest, Best Player NBA You Don't Know" (per Zach Lowe). Player B is a walk-on scrub who was released by the crappy Warriors and allowed to clear waivers by 29 other teams before returning.
I love this stuff, keep on bringing it SRN. Just don't plan on Quese keeping this production up with an increase in floor time. Guys like him pumpkin/burn out with real minutes. No worries, when it matters, the Warriors will keep Quese fresh with a bunch of other cheap 5s (ie. Looney) next season.

Miami will probably have to max All-Star Bam Adebayo this offseason (while Bob gets Chriss for peanuts). It creates an interesting dynamic and questions conventional wisdom (which is always fun to do)

The Rockets, Celtics, Clippers, Lakers (AD a 4?), Bucks, GSW seem to have gone down the cheap route at the 5. While the Hawks and Cavs will be spending cap like drunken sailors for 5s next season.

Not sure why GMs would commit a lot of their cap for centers when there will be plenty of decent 5's FOR SALE this summer.
 
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Sam Ray Not

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Guys like him pumpkin/burn out with real minutes.
Is that true? I was under the impression the Millsap Doctrine applied more often than not. I think there are exceptions for guys like JaVale McGee who burn hot for short stints but tend to get winded, or in foul trouble ... but even he has held up to bigger minutes for the Lakeshow a lot better than most thought he would. His per minute numbers at 22 mpg last season were nearly identical to what he put up in 9-10 mpg with GS. Seems like with all the stoppages, TV timeouts, etc., 20-30 mpg is actually not that hard to manage.

Anyway, he's one to watch over the last 25 games. I'd imagine the Warriors have a bigger, more veteran C on their wishlist with the MLE (Favors or Marc Gasol?) but if Chriss continues to show out, I could easily see him being a poor-man's Bam for next season's team.
 

DannyDarwinism

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I love this stuff, keep on bringing it SRN.
As someone who once thought Orien Green and Ryan Gomes were destined to become the next Payton/Kemp, RN’s bottomless optimism about all things Dubs is one of my favorite things about the Cellar. Even Elvis in his avatar is wearing rose-colored glasses! That he’s now stanning Marquese Chriss and Andrew Wiggins is just a reminder that there were diehard Warrior fans before the dynasty, and there’ll be diehards now. It wasn’t all just tech bro’s come-lately.

I’m skeptical of Chriss given that he’s never been particularly good at basketball for his level (I remember him looking lost on a UW team with Thybulle and Dejounte Murray), but the tools have always been there, so if he’s got his head on right, who knows. From what I’ve seen, his BBIQ isn’t high enough for home to become a good player on a good team, but he’s showing that he’s a worthy reclamation project as an energy big for a rebuilding team.
 

benhogan

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Is that true? I was under the impression the Millsap Doctrine applied more often than not. I think there are exceptions for guys like JaVale McGee who burn hot for short stints but tend to get winded, or in foul trouble ... but even he has held up to bigger minutes for the Lakeshow a lot better than most thought he would. His per minute numbers at 22 mpg last season were nearly identical to what he put up in 9-10 mpg with GS. Seems like with all the stoppages, TV timeouts, etc., 20-30 mpg is actually not that hard to manage.

Anyway, he's one to watch over the last 25 games. I'd imagine the Warriors have a bigger, more veteran C on their wishlist with the MLE (Favors or Marc Gasol?) but if Chriss continues to show out, I could easily see him being a poor-man's Bam for next season's team.
I'm not sure the Millsap Doctrine works well for BIGs in the modern NBA. A guy like Chriss will never be a top offensive option, his job will be to do the dirty work of setting physical screens (for Klay, Steph, Wiggins :eek:), battling for rebounds, blocking shots and taking charges at the rim from athletic wings driving into them.
Plus increased pace of play doesn't help larger/heavier players run up and down the court with PG/wings all night long. This theory is commonly known as the Nubby Horford Creed ;)

There will be no need to play Chriss large minutes since he's fungible with dozens of other cheap 5s Bob can hire next season.

You'd know better than me but was Quese really that much better (both sides of the floor) than WCS (@ $2MM) this season?
 

Cesar Crespo

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I think the hope is that Chriss is 22 and isn't done improving, could possibly take a leap and improve his 3 point shot. Some players aren't what they are at 22. Of course, as we all know, some of them actually are.
 

Sam Ray Not

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You'd know better than me but was Quese really that much better (both sides of the floor) than WCS (@ $2MM) this season?
Hmmm, it's interesting that lovegtm mentioned the eye test with Chriss — while advanced stats don't love him (yet?) and seem to think WCS was the best player on the Warriors this season (he's currently the #2 defensive center in the NBA by DRPM) the majority of Warrior fans I chat with far prefer Chriss. Eyes can deceive, of course, but put simply: WCS looks like a bit of a spazz and tends to space out and spazzy things, whereas Chriss moves and shoots more like a wing player who happens to like to dunk and bang inside.

I can't speak for Myers, though. He may have marginally preferred WCS but also preferred the fact that dumping WCS's much bigger contract allowed them duck under the luxury tax and save the team $50-100M next season.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Hmmm, it's interesting that lovegtm mentioned the eye test with Chriss — while advanced stats don't love him (yet?) and seem to think WCS was the best player on the Warriors this season (he's currently the #2 defensive center in the NBA by DRPM) the majority of Warrior fans I chat with far prefer Chriss. Eyes can deceive, of course, but put simply: WCS looks like a bit of a spazz and tends to space out and spazzy things, whereas Chriss moves and shoots more like a wing player who happens to like to dunk and bang inside.

I can't speak for Myers, though. He may have marginally preferred WCS but also preferred the fact that dumping WCS's much bigger contract allowed them duck under the luxury tax and save the team $50-100M next season.
I also don't have an opinion on Chris's, but the stuff you are talking about - blocking shots, being able to run up and down the court, and dunking - everyone knows MQ has tremendous physical gifts.

But in the NBA, guys got to know how to play basketball and in particular how to play defense. MQ's reputation is that he never did any of that stuff that well.

But kudos to GSW for taking a flier on an uber-athletic high draft pick with hopes of turning him into NBA contributor. They have literally no way of losing this bet. More cellar-dwellers should do this.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I think the hope is that Chriss is 22 and isn't done improving, could possibly take a leap and improve his 3 point shot. Some players aren't what they are at 22. Of course, as we all know, some of them actually are.
This is fair for sure. The greater athleticism a young player has the longer his window will be to eventually learn how to play NBA basketball. Look no further than Gerald Green but there are many others who maintained plus athleticism long enough (due to their base athleticism being so high) for them to develop enough BBIQ to become a contributor.

I would write Chriss’ NBA obituary just yet but I wouldn’t be giving up anything of value for his 22-year old version either. If he is committed to this journey I could see a similar curve as that of Gerald Green but he’s years away.
 

benhogan

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I also don't have an opinion on Chris's, but the stuff you are talking about - blocking shots, being able to run up and down the court, and dunking - everyone knows MQ has tremendous physical gifts.

But in the NBA, guys got to know how to play basketball and in particular how to play defense. MQ's reputation is that he never did any of that stuff that well.

But kudos to GSW for taking a flier on an uber-athletic high draft pick with hopes of turning him into NBA contributor. They have literally no way of losing this bet. More cellar-dwellers should do this.
Who would you rather have TL or Quese?

They are the same age, IMO it's not even close.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Who would you rather have TL or Quese?

They are the same age, IMO it's not even close.
Heh, I think they are pretty comparable but TL probably has more value. TL would have been a much better example to use than Bam. Chriss and TL should probably have similar value but they don't.

edit: TL has shown flashes of his potential and that he may be injury prone. He also has the same make up issues as Chriss whether people want to pretend otherwise or not. It's how he got his nickname.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Who would you rather have TL or Quese?

They are the same age, IMO it's not even close.
I'm just glad the Cs have one of them but think of it this way, if the Cs had to cut TL, would he get anything more than the minimum from another team? In the same vein, if TL was drafted by, say, the 'Zards, he could be putting up huge #s (assuming he could stay healthy) while getting beat every night.

BOS can only play TL - and Romeo for that matter - in certain situations because they need to win. Conversely, if GSW had Steph and Klay healthy, I wonder how much run Chriss would get. But still - I root for players to pan out, not flame out. And sometimes they do. Sometimes.
 

Cesar Crespo

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In another thread @benhogan said he would take about 10 guys drafted behind TL ahead of him. That made me curious so I looked up the list. I'm not sure I could find 10 but I did find some interesting players. Has anyone seen much of Isaac Bonga this year? He looks like a really intriguing player given his skill set and his size.

There's the obvious in Graham and Robinson. Then there are a few sg/pg (Carter, Brunson, Trent) who, at least to date, have shown enough from 3 point range to stick around. Then there are players like Spellman and Kurucs who have shown some ability to be stretch bigs and whatever Mykhailiuk is.

Besides Graham and Robinson, the most appealing (at least on paper) is Bonga.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I don't know where this is supposed to go but I saw that Kevin O'Connor's father passed away last week. Please feel free to delete or move this but he is my favorite NBA writer and seems to have a big following here. Also, he and his dad are huge Celtics fans.

In any event, I hate to share bad news but given that he is an NBA personality I thought it was noteworthy.

There is nothing more to say except that as a parent, all I can say is that KOCs dad got to see his child grow up to be ok..well he seems better than ok. Imo, growing up and being ok is about the best gift a kid can give their parents. Hopefully that can provide some small comfort to KOC or anyone who has lost a parent recently.
 

tmracht

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I don't know where this is supposed to go but I saw that Kevin O'Connor's father passed away last week. Please feel free to delete or move this but he is my favorite NBA writer and seems to have a big following here. Also, he and his dad are huge Celtics fans.

In any event, I hate to share bad news but given that he is an NBA personality I thought it was noteworthy.

There is nothing more to say except that as a parent, all I can say is that KOCs dad got to see his child grow up to be ok..well he seems better than ok. Imo, growing up and being ok is about the best gift a kid can give their parents. Hopefully that can provide some small comfort to KOC or anyone who has lost a parent recently.
Yeah was briefly touched on in the media forum I think the ringer thread. Kevin OConnor aka Kevin Obomber et Al is an amazing writer and a wonderful person and cancer sucks. Everything I'd seen of his dad was absolutely amazing as well. Hope his dad is resting peacefully and Kevin and his family are doing as well as can be hoped in such a situation.
 

jmcc5400

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There is nothing more to say except that as a parent, all I can say is that KOCs dad got to see his child grow up to be ok..well he seems better than ok. Imo, growing up and being ok is about the best gift a kid can give their parents. Hopefully that can provide some small comfort to KOC or anyone who has lost a parent recently.
In the end, it's all that matters. Kevin is a credit to his mom and dad - you can tell how Vernon and Simmons (among others) adore him - and he's great at what he does. Incidentally, I noted that Marcus Smart was among those who conveyed his condolences to KOC via twitter. What a class act.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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HOU signs DeMarre Carroll and Jeff Green.

If HOU can somehow get KD and Ibaka, they could recreate the Thunder.

Looking at Green's BRef page, the most amazing fact I see is that Green has only made over $10M in a season once.
 

oumbi

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Josh Jackson is on the Grizzlies. He's played most of the year in the G league too.
Where he is racking up nice numbers. At 26 games and 31 minutes a game, his stat line sits at 20 points, 7.5 rebounds, and 4.3 assists. He is also shooting 38% on 3 pointers, but only 60% FT. Oh, and he is making just over $7 million a year.