Farrell Watch

Status
Not open for further replies.

RedOctober3829

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
55,449
deep inside Guido territory
The first column calling for John Farrell’s job has surfaced courtesy of Jon Heyman.

If you want to look a little bit deeper, John Farrell managed the team to two straight quick exits, with the first one being way more surprising than this one.

And if you want to go deeper still, word is filtering around the league that a good portion of the clubhouse didn’t love him, that by the end they didn’t think he’s a great communicator, or even a decent one.

Red Sox people haven’t said anything about what their intentions are, so who knows? But others around the game would be a little bit surprised if he survived. While ownership is said to like him (though it seemed off a few years back when the report about him dating a Boston sportscaster showed up first in the Red Sox-owned Boston Globe, leading one player, then on another team, to tell me, “That’s it. He’s in trouble.”)

While ownership generally seemed to like him, Farrell’s popularity may not extend too far beyond that.

Red Sox president/GM Dave Dombrowski hasn’t really made his feelings known, but he did keep Farrell for two more years after he was hired late in the 2015 season. Dombrowski, who accompanies the team on the road more often than not, certainly has given it enough time to form an opinion, even if he hasn’t made it known.

Dombrowski must be aware of the feelings in the clubhouse, too. And he can’t be too thrilled to see his star-filled, high-priced club go 1-6 the last two years in the playoffs.

Following Francona even a year after he left – Bobby Valentine was in between the two — could not have been easy, but Farrell did fine. He actually did more than fine. But every manager, even good ones, have a shelf life, and his time should be up now.

https://www.fanragsports.com/heyman-john-farrells-time-should-be-up-in-boston/
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
54,050
I'm of the opinion that he gets too much grief here and that there is no perfect manager for this site, but I think it's time to move on.

I'm not sure who I'd want if it happens although I'm sure if it happens I'll form a very firm opinion and be devastated if they go elsewhere.
 

dhappy42

Straw Man
Oct 27, 2013
15,770
Michigan
Complaining about and second-guessing managers and calling for their heads is part of baseball. While Farrell’s not a great manager, he’s not a bad one either, and the Red Sox poor showings in the last two postseasons isn’t his fault. They’ve won the division two years in a row. I’d be astonished if management sends him packing.
 

DeadlySplitter

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 20, 2015
33,544
My prediction: DD will confirm Farrell at the exit press conference, just like last season.
 

EricFeczko

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 26, 2014
4,848
As much as Heyman sucks, he's not the only one who has noted that there may be something to how Farrell handles a clubhouse.
David Laurila made a note of it when interviewing Shaw:
https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/sunday-notes-travis-shaw-and-the-brewers-are-sneaky-good/

A change of managers has been to his liking. While careful not to criticize John Farrell, Shaw’s critique of Craig Counsell is telling.

“Craig was a position player, and he’s more recently out of the game,” said Shaw. “He’s been through the grind as a starter and as a bench guy. I think position-player managers have a different vibe about them than pitcher managers. Craig is really laid back. He relates to his players really well.

“Guys have a little more free rein here — I have 10 stolen bases (in 10 attempts). They’ve given me a green light to steal if I want to. There’s a lot of trust from the manager that the team is going to make the right decisions.”
I do wonder if Farrell's handling (more related to off-days and positioning the team to be fresh for the post-season a la francona) of the young position players has some effect on the trajectory of observed production.
 

uncannymanny

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 12, 2007
9,097
Sure, tear down the guy who benched the brand new $95 million guy for you. JF is the only reason anyone even knew who Travis Shaw was.
 

OurF'ingCity

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 22, 2016
8,469
New York City
I’m kind of 50-50 on Farrell. If they have in mind someone unique - either someone breaking in with a lot of energy and new ideas or someone more established with a great track record, then sure. But if they just hire one of the 10 or so managers that just seem to change teams every 5 years or so then I don’t really see the point.

Of course, they can’t know ahead of time whether their preferred target (if they have one) will be interested until they fire Farrell so it’s definitely a risk.
 

Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat

has big, douchey shoulders
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
I do wonder if Farrell's handling (more related to off-days and positioning the team to be fresh for the post-season a la francona) of the young position players has some effect on the trajectory of observed production.
I'm interested in what you mean by this. Lindor played in 159 games this year, Encarnacion 157, Santana 154, and Ramirez 152. Betts led the Sox with 153.
 

Snodgrass'Muff

oppresses WARmongers
SoSH Member
Mar 11, 2008
27,644
Roanoke, VA
I'm guessing the reports of the team not liking him so much are about as reliable as reports that the clubhouse was falling apart during the Eck thing.

Guy has won 2 straight division titles and 3 in 5 years with a World Series title in that span. I don't think I'd bet on him being fired.

That said, I don't think I'd care if he was if the team sees what they perceive to be an upgrade out there somewhere.
 

vadertime

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
1,601
Rhode Island
I'm not a Farrell fan, but he's got us 2 straight division titles. Would another manager gotten us further either year? Doubtful. Sometimes its better to stick with the devil you know then the devil you don't.
 

dcmissle

Deflatigator
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Aug 4, 2005
28,269
The minute Farrell is off the clock, DD is on it. I don't know that this would impact his thinking in any way, but that's the reality of these situations.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

Throw Momma From the Train
Moderator
SoSH Member
May 20, 2003
35,865
Deep inside Muppet Labs
It's entirely reasonable to believe that Farrell may simply not be a good manager for a team that has so many core players being so young and relatively inexperienced. There are SIX young position players in the lineup right now (X, Benintendi, JBJ, Mookie, Devers, Vazquez); Farrell may not be as good at communicating or handling them as he is with a more veteran team. The 2013 team was largely vets acquired through FA signings or trades; this team has a lot more homegrown players.

Everyone's style wears thin after a while. It's no shame to move on from a guy when the makeup of the team changes and he can't. His style never changes and the weaknesses of his teams don't either: his Toronto teams were notorious poor baserunning teams, just like this one is.
 

glennhoffmania

meat puppet
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 25, 2005
8,411,677
NY
Even if one doesn't believe that the team has underperformed during his tenure, especially considering that the record this year is a result of an unsustainable extra innings record, I don't know how one couldn't see that the team seems pretty undisciplined, unprepared, and sloppy far too often for a team with WS aspirations. That's on the coaching staff. Farrell may be a great guy, a smart guy, a hard working guy- but while I'll always give him the credit he deserves for 2013 it's really time for a change.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

Throw Momma From the Train
Moderator
SoSH Member
May 20, 2003
35,865
Deep inside Muppet Labs
I'm guessing the reports of the team not liking him so much are about as reliable as reports that the clubhouse was falling apart during the Eck thing.

Guy has won 2 straight division titles and 3 in 5 years with a World Series title in that span. I don't think I'd bet on him being fired.

That said, I don't think I'd care if he was if the team sees what they perceive to be an upgrade out there somewhere.
He also had 2 last place finishes.

Over the past two years those division titles have resulted in a 1-6 playoff record.

His world series title is 4 years in the past and was won with a veteran team made up largely of Free agents, hardly the type of team he has now.
 

BillMuellerFanClub

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
1,390
I'm torn. I think Farrell gets an undeserved amount of grief from the people here, but at the end of the day the players didn't execute. Sometimes I appreciate that, during the regular season, he seems to be playing the long game. Slow hooks or an experiment in matchups when bringing in a less-than-desirable relief pitcher du jour are forgivable during the regular season, as long as it helps him learn something. This is confirmed by his generally acceptable management during the playoffs (the inexcusable choice of marrero over devers not withstanding).

However, I'm starting to think it might be time for a change. It's probably today's soul crushing collapse that's swaying my opinion. In which John Farrell brought in the best closer in the AL and he coughed it up. The players need to execute.
 

Redkluzu

tortures mice
SoSH Member
Dec 10, 2007
2,661
Bostonish...see Wiki for "ish"
This may be an attempt to stem rumors but here's what the Globe reports per Alex Speier

Dustin Pedroia
On whether Farrell should be back next year: “I thought John did a great job. We won the division. There was never any quit in this team. I’m proud of everybody in here. We dealt with a lot. Our fight continued every single day. I know we didn’t achieve our goals, but I’m proud of how everybody went about their business and showed up for everybody and played to win.”

Craig Kimbrel
“He was there for us. He came out and we just got done losing a hard game and he came out and told us how proud he was of us and everything that we did this year. He watched us all year long, he knows each and every guy in here, he knows what we’re made of and for him to go out every night, put it together and try to help put the best team on the field — we won the East, unfortunately we didn’t get where we want in the playoffs. But I think he did a great job.”

Chris Sale
“This is a game that you can second-guess anything. Every game, every inning. We play 162 games, nine innings every time, sometimes extras, so there’s a lot of room for debate and would’ves, should’ves. He gave us every opportunity to succeed. I can say the same for everybody on this team.”
 

E5 Yaz

polka king
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 25, 2002
90,490
Oregon
It's entirely reasonable to believe that Farrell may simply not be a good manager for a team that has so many core players being so young and relatively inexperienced. There are SIX young position players in the lineup right now (X, Benintendi, JBJ, Mookie, Devers, Vazquez); Farrell may not be as good at communicating or handling them as he is with a more veteran team. The 2013 team was largely vets acquired through FA signings or trades; this team has a lot more homegrown players.

Everyone's style wears thin after a while. It's no shame to move on from a guy when the makeup of the team changes and he can't.
This sums up my feelings on the matter
 

j44thor

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
11,015
Their isn't a manager in baseball that is going to make this team competitive with CLE/HOU/NYY anytime soon. This team maxed out their expected win rate given the team they field. It is very tough to win with pitching and defense, esp when the pitching doesn't show up in a short series.

The number of regulars that would start on any other AL playoff team is around 1-3.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

Throw Momma From the Train
Moderator
SoSH Member
May 20, 2003
35,865
Deep inside Muppet Labs
This may be an attempt to stem rumors but here's what the Globe reports per Alex Speier
Guy A was 2-16 in this series.

Guy B puked all over his shoes today.

Guy C pitched well for a while but then blew the lead and took the L.

Interesting that they're backing the manager. To protect their reputations they probably have no choice. Also, these three guys are not the young position players that Farrell would likely have trouble communicating with.
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
22,805
It's entirely reasonable to believe that Farrell may simply not be a good manager for a team that has so many core players being so young and relatively inexperienced. There are SIX young position players in the lineup right now (X, Benintendi, JBJ, Mookie, Devers, Vazquez); Farrell may not be as good at communicating or handling them as he is with a more veteran team. The 2013 team was largely vets acquired through FA signings or trades; this team has a lot more homegrown players.

Everyone's style wears thin after a while. It's no shame to move on from a guy when the makeup of the team changes and he can't. His style never changes and the weaknesses of his teams don't either: his Toronto teams were notorious poor baserunning teams, just like this one is.

In regards to the young players; under Farrell's watch he has been in charge of playing several top prospects, and with the exception of Swihart, those guys have really flourished. The future of the franchise was going to hinge on the development of those players at the major league level, and they have really performed as advertised. In addition, some of them, such as X, Benintendi and Devers, have come up and right away been given plenty of at bats, replacing veterans in the lineup and hitting well from Day One. How much credit you want to give the manager for that is debatable, but Farrell has been entrusted with overseeing the development of good prospects and they have really succeeded under his watch.

I'm with DrewDawg, I think Farrell is an average to slightly above average manager and gets blamed for a lot of shit around here. However, if we agree this team has the talent to win the pennant or a WS as presently constructed (I think they do) than I think it is time to see if another voice in the clubhouse can get them to that level.
 

Montana Fan

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 18, 2000
8,908
Twin Bridges, Mt.
Farrell’s problem is that he followed Tito. Had Tito retired we might look more favorably on JF. Instead, Tito is doing it again with the Indians. Other than Tito, who has been a better Sox manager over the last 30 years?
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,188
I don't think Farrell is as bad as some here think, and I do believe he pulled mostly the right switches during this series. Not his fault that all 4 starting pitchers and his best bullpen arm went belly up at the wrong time. And the hits today that led to the 4th Houston run were not exactly smoked, so I cannot blame Farrell for leaving in Sale either. It's not like he was outmanaged by A. J. Hinch; there was plenty of second guessing by Houston fans after the Game 3 loss.

However, I'm also of the belief that there are plenty of younger candidates out there that could successfully manage this team. So, if the team decides that's it time to move on, it would be understandable. Just don't expect a new manager to be a panacea; whoever it is will make plenty of moves over the course of 162 games that will have many here scratching their heads.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

Throw Momma From the Train
Moderator
SoSH Member
May 20, 2003
35,865
Deep inside Muppet Labs
The young players have really succeeded? X got moved to 3rd base in his first full season in 2014 for reasons that were and still are entirely unclear, and promptly slumped the rest of the year. He was considered a disappointment this year as well. JBJ remains a streaky enigma, with tons of talent yet continues to chase bad pitches and unable to out everything together. Mookie was 2nd in the MVP voting last year and waaaaaay off the pace this year.

If the development of the young guys stagnates the longer they are up under Farrell's tutelage, I'd say that's a pretty enormous knock against him.
 

uncannymanny

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 12, 2007
9,097
He had two last place finishes on the immediate heels of a world championship.
Which part of a rotation headed by Clay fucking Buchholz was Farrell responsible for? All we heard was “he’s a pitching coach how can he not get these guys to do well?” Now when the pitching is good and his bullpen usage was excellent, he’s responsible for the bad hitters. Isn’t that weird?

Edit: to be clear I don’t care if he goes and it could be new voice time.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,188
Guy A was 2-16 in this series.

Guy B puked all over his shoes today.

Guy C pitched well for a while but then blew the lead and took the L.

Interesting that they're backing the manager. To protect their reputations they probably have no choice. Also, these three guys are not the young position players that Farrell would likely have trouble communicating with.
Without players B and C, we're not even having this thread. Actually, we probably are, but in a different context.
 

nothumb

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 27, 2006
7,065
yammer's favorite poster
It's entirely reasonable to believe that Farrell may simply not be a good manager for a team that has so many core players being so young and relatively inexperienced. There are SIX young position players in the lineup right now (X, Benintendi, JBJ, Mookie, Devers, Vazquez); Farrell may not be as good at communicating or handling them as he is with a more veteran team. The 2013 team was largely vets acquired through FA signings or trades; this team has a lot more homegrown players.

Everyone's style wears thin after a while. It's no shame to move on from a guy when the makeup of the team changes and he can't. His style never changes and the weaknesses of his teams don't either: his Toronto teams were notorious poor baserunning teams, just like this one is.
This post is the closest so far to where I am with it. I think people tend to give JF too much grief, even though I'm not a huge fan. I thought his bullpen approach was better this year than last - specifically that he seemed more flexible in his assessments of where his pitchers were at and seemed more willing to use people in the late innings based on matchups / lineup position / leverage, not just defined roles. My other big gripe with him at this time last year had more to do with player development, preparation, approach... and in that instance, as SJH articulates above, I think he's still below-average, and if the FO thinks there is a better candidate out there, I'd be in favor of a change.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

Throw Momma From the Train
Moderator
SoSH Member
May 20, 2003
35,865
Deep inside Muppet Labs
Without players B and C, we're not even having this thread. Actually, we probably are, but in a different context.
B was babied all season long by Farrell by not giving him multiple inning games, presumably to save him for situations exactly like today's. That strategy was a total failure.

C was ridden hard by Farrell all season and he had a shitty Game 1 and took the loss today by giving up a lead. Again, it's worth noting that Farrell's use of him ultimately didn't work out.

At some point, a manager's tactics have to actually work for him to get some credit.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,188
My point being, he had a WS winning team and immediately took them into the toilet. Twice. That's really really really difficult to do.
I'm quite certain that it was long settled that 2014 and 2015 were roster construction issues, not managerial issues.
 

uncannymanny

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 12, 2007
9,097
My point being, he had a WS winning team and immediately took them into the toilet. Twice. That's really really really difficult to do.
Rubby De La Rosa made 18 starts for that team and Workman 19. Will Middlebrooks, AJP, and Daniel Nava we’re starters for that team. Those teams are exactly why Ben Cherington was fired and Farrell was not.

EDIT: REALLY RUBBY DE LA ROSA! And he was their 3rd best starter by ERA lol.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,188
B was babied all season long by Farrell by not giving him multiple inning games, presumably to save him for situations exactly like today's. That strategy was a total failure.

C was ridden hard by Farrell all season and he had a shitty Game 1 and took the loss today by giving up a lead. Again, it's worth noting that Farrell's use of him ultimately didn't work out.

At some point, a manager's tactics have to actually work for him to get some credit.
Kimbrel had several 4+ out appearances early in the season. Farrell, like every other single manager in MLB, thought it would not be prudent to keep at that pace, and limited him mostly to 3 out appearances. The strategy didn't fail; Kimbrel failed. Of course, thanks to Pedroia, there was almost no margin of error for Kimbrel by that time.
 

Snodgrass'Muff

oppresses WARmongers
SoSH Member
Mar 11, 2008
27,644
Roanoke, VA
He had two last place finishes on the immediate heels of a world championship.
It's amazing how quickly people forgot that the Sox were a rebuilding team after 2012 and that the next core wasn't supposed to be in place and ready to compete until 2015 at the earliest. Cherington got insanely lucky with his free agent signings after the 2012 season and they won a title, but they were STILL a rebuilding team in 2014.

The vets regressed to the mean, they meandered through the first half, punted at the deadline and rode it out to a good draft pick.

Then in 2015 they got off to a poor start because the kids weren't quite ready, Panda was an awful signing, and the Hanley in LF experiment was quite possibly the worst idea ever. Hard to pin either year on Farrell, but by 2016 the core was in place and the team performed as expected.

The "but he had two last place finishes!" narrative is tired. I'm not arguing that he's a great manger. He's not. And again, if they think they can upgrade, great... go for it.

But I've yet to see a good argument for why Farrell is a bad manager.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,188
The X to 3rd base thing was most certainly a manager issue.
Cherington signed the corpse of Stephen Drew to play short. That, and the absolute suckitude of Middlebrooks, helped necessitate the move of X to 3B. If X was the player we think he should be, he would have not let his position affect his hitting. There's no logical or physical or even mental explanation as to why it should.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
54,050
Yeah--if they make a change I don't think it's directly tied to on-field type stuff, more to the possible thoughts that another type of guy might be best for young team.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

Throw Momma From the Train
Moderator
SoSH Member
May 20, 2003
35,865
Deep inside Muppet Labs
Kimbrel had several 4+ out appearances early in the season. Farrell, like every other single manager in MLB, thought it would not be prudent to keep at that pace, and limited him mostly to 3 out appearances. The strategy didn't fail; Kimbrel failed. Of course, thanks to Pedroia, there was almost no margin of error for Kimbrel by that time.

Yes, it's prudent to watch Kimbrel's usage. However, if you use him for only one inning at a time and then suddenly expect him to go out there for multiple innings at a time in the postseason, you're asking for trouble. He should have either stuck with the 1 inning usage pattern in the postseason (isn't that why they acquired Reed?) or had him make more multiple-inning appearances down the stretch to get him used to it so he'd be prepared to do so in the posteason.

The strategy that Farrell undertook was a complete failure. He tried to save Kimbrel for the postseason and Kimbrel stunk anyway.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

Throw Momma From the Train
Moderator
SoSH Member
May 20, 2003
35,865
Deep inside Muppet Labs
Cherington signed the corpse of Stephen Drew to play short. That, and the absolute suckitude of Middlebrooks, helped necessitate the move of X to 3B. If X was the player we think he should be, he would have not let his position affect his hitting. There's no logical or physical or even mental explanation as to why it should.
You think Cherington signed Drew without input from his manager? That's absurd. If Farrell wanted X to stay at short he would have told Cherington so. Drew was signed anyway.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.