Everton 21-22: No Not I, I Will Survive

OCST

Sunny von Bulow
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Jan 10, 2004
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Not hiring Vitor Pereira feels like a missed opportunity for some all time press conferences.
From your lips to God's ears, he's not dead yet:

View: https://twitter.com/ToffeeTVEFC/status/1486817422166433796?s=20&t=3SRm5e7gtcOyaB9hKQ1w_g


This fucking guy.

All sources say it's Lampard. As between Lampard, Ferguson, and Periera, there's nothing to decide. We love Dunc but he's not manager material yet, if he ever will be- let him go off to the Championship (or lower) to earn his stripes. It's horrific that Periera is even in the running still, just on his CV let alone that trainwreck of a TV interview yesterday.

Lampard is the best candidate and he also seems ready to bring with him a few of Chelsea's small army of loan and transfer fodder-

but wait- real time edit-

Lots of Twitter chatter that although there were three interviews scheduled tomorrow, Moshiri is now backing off Lampard-

View: https://twitter.com/EvertonBlueArmy/status/1486828062150959107?s=20&t=Pb1uMrMvof0MkpGFYkSP4A


View: https://twitter.com/ToffeeTVEFC/status/1486828962714112005?s=20&t=Pb1uMrMvof0MkpGFYkSP4A


View: https://twitter.com/r4chaelc1878/status/1486804620374642691?s=20&t=Pb1uMrMvof0MkpGFYkSP4A


This guy seriously has some sort of personality disorder that inhibits decision making - or he's letting himself be swayed by hangers-on. Villa fired Dean Smith and had Gerrard in place in two days. Nobody backs and fills like this. The window is closing. GET ON WITH IT.
 

OCST

Sunny von Bulow
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Thank Christ.

If Vitor Periera had gotten it there would have been mutiny.

I'm actually somewhat optimistic (remind me of this in a month.).
 

OCST

Sunny von Bulow
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I think this is a decent appointment.
Agreed.

Looking at his Chelsea record closely- that team was built around Hazard and he was out; they had a transfer ban; and of course as the native son he had loads of pressure.

Hes going to bring some goods coaches with him - a whole staff by the looks of it since TT** sacked then all, and maybe a couple of players too. Since Chelsea have like 15 midfielders maybe we can get a couple of bodies.

works well with younger players. If you’re one of our kids you’re thrilled right now.

has the gravitas, both personality and resume, to tell our owner to fuck off, in a positive waywithout being a spiteful self sabotaging tool about it (the Digne thing would never have happened under Frank).

Arteta and Gerard are good comps and they’re doing fine.

I could see him being here for a long time.

Of course on true Everton fashion this could have been done a week ago and we’d have secured three players and put in a weeks worth of training under the new guy but hey.
 

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Sunny von Bulow
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fletch, this probably means the end of Dunc at Everton for now. I love him too and I think that’s a good thing for him, if he’s got managerial aspirations he’s got to go somewhere and do it.

plus he’s been at the club too long under too many managers, some view him as part of the problem which tbh is fair.

Time to move on, maybe he manages Everton on 2032z
 

Mighty Joe Young

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Agreed.

Looking at his Chelsea record closely- that team was built around Hazard and he was out; they had a transfer ban; and of course as the native son he had loads of pressure.

Hes going to bring some goods coaches with him - a whole staff by the looks of it since TT** sacked then all, and maybe a couple of players too. Since Chelsea have like 15 midfielders maybe we can get a couple of bodies.

works well with younger players. If you’re one of our kids you’re thrilled right now.

has the gravitas, both personality and resume, to tell our owner to fuck off, in a positive waywithout being a spiteful self sabotaging tool about it (the Digne thing would never have happened under Frank).

Arteta and Gerard are good comps and they’re doing fine.

I could see him being here for a long time.

Of course on true Everton fashion this could have been done a week ago and we’d have secured three players and put in a weeks worth of training under the new guy but hey.
I think Lampard was more a victim of increased expectation due to the Werner and Havertz acquisitions. He’d done a really nice job developing the kids and that was all blown up by the German onslaught. When they flopped (for whatever reason) then he was out.

(Now that I think of it this was similar to Ole’s fate at United)

Even Tuchel seems to be finding it difficult to keep everyone happy. Expecting Pulisic to move on in the summer.

Getting back to EFC .. seems like an excellent hire - especially given the options available.
 

OCST

Sunny von Bulow
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I think Lampard was more a victim of increased expectation due to the Werner and Havertz acquisitions. He’d done a really nice job developing the kids and that was all blown up by the German onslaught. When they flopped (for whatever reason) then he was out.

(Now that I think of it this was similar to Ole’s fate at United)

Even Tuchel seems to be finding it difficult to keep everyone happy. Expecting Pulisic to move on in the summer.

Getting back to EFC .. seems like an excellent hire - especially given the options available.
Last night, falling asleep, at the time when you dream your dirtiest and most taboo fantasies, I allowed myself to indulge that Frank brought Pulisic with him and we announce it on Monday
 

Jimy Hendrix

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Last night, falling asleep, at the time when you dream your dirtiest and most taboo fantasies, I allowed myself to indulge that Frank brought Pulisic with him and we announce it on Monday
I could see this as oddly plausible for the summer, especially if he gets on that deluxe non-prospect version of the Chelsea Loan Army that they sometimes use to trim players from their squad. It’d probably take too much money if he actually gets sold, but even then spending too much money is something Moshri has proved able to do.
 

fletcherpost

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fletch, this probably means the end of Dunc at Everton for now. I love him too and I think that’s a good thing for him, if he’s got managerial aspirations he’s got to go somewhere and do it.

plus he’s been at the club too long under too many managers, some view him as part of the problem which tbh is fair.

Time to move on, maybe he manages Everton on 2032z
I agree mate. It's time for him to branch out, spread his wings...learn to fly away.
 

67YAZ

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Lampard’s first move to loan in van de Beek. It will be interesting to see what he can do and how much rust there is on his game. I love watching DvdB play - he’s always moving the ball forward, always running into dangerous spaces, always trying to make things happen. That def puts pressure on the players behind him, but if set up right, puts more pressure on the defenses in front of him.
 

67YAZ

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Well, what the fuck so I know. DvdB plus Dele along side Gray, Richarlison, Iwobi, & Townsend…that’s a lot of dudes running up pitch full speed.
 

OCST

Sunny von Bulow
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A little concerned about BOTH dele and Donny, we have a bad history with sky six rejects. BUT I do think they both got screwed unfairly by the managers they played under. Both have something to prove (like Gray who had been our star).

most need a deep lying DM/6 type, they have actually tried to get the band back together by asking PSG about Gana Gueye which is not going to happen

could use another CB whether or not Mason Holgate goes to Brighton which only concerns me re numbers/depth, if wehad another body I’d happily get rid

so if nothing else changes

Out:
Digne
Rafa :w00t:

In:

Lampard + staff
Patterson
Mykolenko
El Ghazi
Van der Beek
Alli

The way Digne was run out by Rafa was terrible.
Rafa should have been canned two months ago, (or never hired).
Bringing Lampard in was a clusterfuck that took way too long.
Only the influence peddler wanted el Ghazi
See above re sloppy seconds from Utd and Spurs
Mykolenko is 19 doesn’t speak English has been playing in a farmers league and his country is about to be blown off the map

but

a I wrong to think that….

this has been

I hate to allow myself to have hope

good?
 

coremiller

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Dele for free up front with 10m down the line is a downright steal. He's extremely talented and still only 25. It wasn't working out for him at Spurs for whatever reasons and maybe he's something of a headcase but I'm shocked Spurs ran his value down so far -- a couple seasons ago he would have been a 50m+ player.
 

OCST

Sunny von Bulow
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Dele for free up front with 10m down the line is a downright steal. He's extremely talented and still only 25. It wasn't working out for him at Spurs for whatever reasons and maybe he's something of a headcase but I'm shocked Spurs ran his value down so far -- a couple seasons ago he would have been a 50m+ player.
I agree, but there's some downside risk: the headcase thing, the sudden glut of attacking players, etc.

Well, what the fuck so I know. DvdB plus Dele along side Gray, Richarlison, Iwobi, & Townsend…that’s a lot of dudes running up pitch full speed.
You can toss Iwobi out of there, he's been dreadful and won't sniff any game time with the rest of these.

But yeah. I'm trying to play with this depth chart/formation thingy. Definitely still some holes in this side.

Key:

a=young/academy product; limited or no PL minutes; not yet established; rawness is a concern

b=out on loan
c=loanee in

p=out of position in this role
q=about to be sold

w=on the old side, age is a concern
x=sucks ass, fucking terrible, just a horrendous football player
y=contract up and not coming back
z=perpetually injured
Ω=sex offender


  • True 9
    • DCL
    • Rondon (w, x)
    • Owyango (a)
    • Tosun (w, x, y)
    • Simms (a, b)
  • False 9 in a 4-4-1-1/Wide players in a 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1
    • Richarlison
    • Gray
    • Alli
    • Gordon
    • El Ghazi (c)
    • Townsend (w)
    • Iwobi (x, p)
    • Kean (a, b, y)
  • Center mid or No. 10 in a 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1
    • Van de Beek (c)
    • Alli
    • Doucoure
    • Gray, Gordon, Townsend, Iwobi in that order can make do or have occasionally played here (p)
    • Gomes (x, z)
    • Sigurdsson (w, x, y, Ω)
  • Wingers - wide players in a 4-4-2
    • Gray
    • Gordon
    • El Ghazi
    • Townsend
  • Midfield two in a 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1; defensive or holding-mid type in a 4-3-3
    • Doucoure
    • Allan
    • Davies
    • Gomes (x, z, p)
    • Delph (w, x, y, z)
    • Gbamin (x, z)
  • Fullbacks
    • Coleman (w)
    • Patterson (a)
    • Mykolenko (a)
    • Kenny (a, x)
    • Nkonkou (a, b)
    • Godfrey (p, z)
  • Centerbacks
    • Mina (z)
    • Keane (x)
    • Godfrey (z)
    • Branthwaite (a)
    • Holgate (x, q)
  • GK
    • Pickford
    • Begovic (w, x, y)
    • Virginia (a, b)
    • Lonergan (w, x, y)
 
Last edited:

candylandriots

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View: https://twitter.com/Matt_Law_DT/status/1488175730093658114


I'm not that high on Dele Alli but if true that's a pretty good deal from Everton's perspective. The 20 games thing is probably there to help with FFP, pushing the payment into next season. In any case, 10m just isn't a lot of money.
That seems like an AMAZING deal for Everton. I wish Palace had pursued that rather than the ill-fated loan for van de Beek. Reportedly Everton was willing to pay 100% of his salary; Palace only 85%. Oh well, hopefully MacArthur and Kouiate will be back soon.
 

SoxFanInCali

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California. Duh.
Never got a sniff and will not get a sniff, strictly third string keeper and might even be behind an academy kid if it came to that.
That's exactly why he's a Liverpool legend. Never got in a game for the Reds, either, but was the #3 keeper in the Super Cup and Club World Cup and got medals, and I think Klopp gave him one of the Premier League medals as well. He also managed to be on the bench for West Brom last year so was able to congratulate Alisson on his goal.

DLew and I spent way too much time messaging each other about him.
 

DJnVa

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That seems like an AMAZING deal for Everton. I wish Palace had pursued that rather than the ill-fated loan for van de Beek. Reportedly Everton was willing to pay 100% of his salary; Palace only 85%. Oh well, hopefully MacArthur and Kouiate will be back soon.

It can apparently go a lot higher:

Everton can’t bring Dele in on loan, and they can’t afford a big transfer fee in the short term, so Spurs collaborated with them to set up some easily attainable metrics by which if Dele plays a lot and plays well, Spurs can receive as much as £40m over time when all is said and done.
 

singaporesoxfan

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All the Everton groups I belong to are filled with the same sense: not of hope per se, but hope that this could be the beginning of hope.
 

OCST

Sunny von Bulow
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The 718
All the Everton groups I belong to are filled with the same sense: not of hope per se, but hope that this could be the beginning of hope.
That back four is still an issue.

I could see a lot of NHL and MLB - style scorelines for us the rest of the way.
 

Rwillh11

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That back four is still an issue.

I could see a lot of NHL and MLB - style scorelines for us the rest of the way.
Hoping Lampard works Patterson in, and with support Coleman can still be OK if he isn't playing every match. But left back really could be a disaster the rest of the way, and if Mykolenko can't be trusted and we need to play Godfrey over there than it makes the issues with the cbs even worse
 

singaporesoxfan

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It'll be very interesting to see whether Lampard can get Dele's career back on track.

You look at some of his old highlights and they are genuinely amazing. He had a confidence and brashness to his play that he seems to have completely misplaced.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuY9u2gsGIM&t=17s
That goal around 1:25 is the one I always remember from him - it's the same one that's in this tweet

View: https://twitter.com/sportbible/status/1488180980691128324?s=20&t=B9XCEPgoG7uM0iWKKR06qA
 

OCST

Sunny von Bulow
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another knock for DCL?
Yep. Supposedly just a knock.

Injuries, and especially recurrence of muscle, ligament, tendon etc. injuries, have been a huge problem. Rafa fired the entire medical staff, over that and just as part of his general week-before-firing purge, so now I don't know who would even be making the evaluation.

Now that we suddenly have more attacking options, I'd rather he take his time - although VdB, Alli, and El Ghazi are all already cup-tied to their former clubs and can't play against Brentford on Saturday.
 

OCST

Sunny von Bulow
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Gomes was MOTM in the 4-1 cup win over Brentford - showing for the ball and getting it forward quickly and accurately. Everton Twitter was full of praise, and noted that this is the style of play that Barca got him for.

Last night Newcastle pounded the snot out of us, 3-1, and it wasn't that close. ASM, Joelinton, Shelvey, Lascalle physically abused us, got to every second ball, showed plenty of fight and we capitualted. Granted Mina and Gray went off early, but it was still shameful. Gomes in particular was beyond putrid. A step slow to every ball, frightened of his own shadow, passes right to the Barcodes ten feet away.

That was a relegation six-pointer and we pissed ourselves.

In October, November, December, January, February: 6 points from a possible 45. 13 GF, 30 GA. That's not just relegation form - it's vying for all-time-bad territory.

Leeds on Saturday at Goodison - if we don't get three points I'm seriously concerned we'll be going down.
 

SocrManiac

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Judging by Atwell’s performance and that stat, Allan’s job was to interpose himself between the referee and the action.
 

OCST

Sunny von Bulow
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Everton played well enough to come away with something.

Lampard set up well and had the team drilled well. It looked like a 4-5-1 without the ball and a 4-3-3 in attack. Obviously we're not the only side that went to Anfield to hunker down, but it wasn't a pure bus-parking. Among other things we did not go five at the back, which makes sense; our FBs are not wing-backs and don't play well as such; our wingers are our best players at the moment and we need them out there; and there are not two CB's I want on the pitch with Mina (perpetually) out, let alone three.

So a standard back four, albeit with Godfrey getting hurt in warmups (WTF with the injuries?) and Keane, who has been abysmal, stepping in.
Midfield three of Allan, Iwobi, and Doucoure. Iwobi has been revitalized under Lampard. He always said that the middle was his best spot and he's proving it. His end product still is not the best but he covers every blade of grass. Doucoure started the season as one of the best in the PL, got hurt, and has been abysmal since, but he looked like his old self yesterday, notwithstanding his counterattack, which lacked conviction and I had no expectation that he'd score. Allan, yes I'd like a little more attacking intent and he's a little too old and slow but he was at least serviceable yesterday. Allan had 5 interceptions, 7 clearances, and 1 block, so he gets the Ngolo Kante prize for job done with that stuff.

With those three in midfield, the wingers in a five-man line in defense, and Richy up front, Pool couldn't break it down. Mykolenko especially was phenomenal on Salah. Reds got some joy after the second half, the game loosened up, I think the switch to attacking the Kop had something to do with that, but give JK credit for the subs. Diaz and Origi had the physicality that they needed. Robertson and Salah had the goal and assist for the first goal but Origi made it happen with his holdup play. Both goals were crafted on Liverpool's left in the six-yard box - Holgate and Coleman asleep at the switch. Keane was actually decent. The right side of Everton's back four was the weak link.

On attack, if you saw the game you know that everything went through Richy and especially Gordon. Allan had few passes because he was not tasked with taking the ball off the CBs and bringing it forward. To the extent that was done through the middle, Iwobi and Doucore did it. Really, though, it wasn't done through the middle at all, since we're mostly in a relegation fight because of goals given away by Keane trying to play out from the back. The forward movement was all on the left. Gordon and Mykolenko were fantastic - they outplayed TAA and Salah on that side IMO all day long, they're both on a spell of great form and it gives hope for the future. But poo on the right side. Coleman doesn't have the wheels week-in, week-out anymore, and Doucore Gray started the season as one of the best in the PL, got hurt, and has been abysmal since - he had one good strike, spurned another chance, and had nothing going down his side all day. from whoscored.com:

Screen Shot 2022-04-25 at 11.22.29 AM.png

and


51118


One thing Lampard could have done better, in retrospect, is to play Rondon as a holdup striker and put Richy out wide. As the focal point of that formation in the first half, Richy did not give enough of a target. Rondon was awful when he was first pressed into service this season, but as he's gained match fitness and struggled to shake the stigma of being Rafa's binky, he's done ok in limited duty. Despite the Brazil 9 shirt, Richy just isn't a central striker; he's much better cutting in from the left.

But notwithstanding the obvious difference in quality, we could have gotten something if not for the officiating. I'll not go into each call, because it's tiresome and you saw them just like I did, but I'll say that Lampard is right - if you reverse the jerseys and it's Salah and not Gordon, that gets called 10 times out of 10.

I'm strangely OK today. Frank has learned what he has on his hands. He's learning to make the best of it. If we go down there will be many reasons, the least forgivable being blowing a 2-1 second half lead at Burnley (although I think if Everton do stay up it will be at the expense of Leeds - I would not have guessed so but it looks like firing Dyche unlocked some of the potential in that club). But there needs to be fight and discipline and some application of the quality in the side and I've seen that over the last three games - win vs United, draw vs Leicester, and this. I can't think we're favored to beat Chelsea on Sunday but I won't be surprised if we do. Despite the tough run-in we are now playing well enough to survive. If we'd played like this all season we'd be 13th or so. In a grotesque way it may be better that it's come to the state it has, since there can be no illusions now. The terrible governance, wasteful spending, lack of vision, etc. - there needed to be a reckoning. I hope it's not too late.
 

SocrManiac

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But notwithstanding the obvious difference in quality, we could have gotten something if not for the officiating. I'll not go into each call, because it's tiresome and you saw them just like I did, but I'll say that Lampard is right - if you reverse the jerseys and it's Salah and not Gordon, that gets called 10 times out of 10.
This is really, really disingenuous and ignores the root cause of the problem: Gordon is a horrific diver. He probably should have been off for it even before he got fouled in the box. When a key part of your game is deceiving the officials, you aren't going to get the benefit of the doubt. Had he stayed on his feet on even half of the occasions he went down, he probably gets the call. He earned that no-call and it's on him, his teammates, and his coach to drill that out of his game. He has a promising future if he stays on his feet once in awhile.

Salah doesn't get the call as often as you seem to think, either.

I'd have been okay with Jota being sent off, but I have no idea how Richarlison wasn't. His antics were completely over the top. Faking an injury on an uncontested header? Give me a break. Diving, faking injuries, and lashing out at opponents- that's how he's now defined. Again, it didn't need to be that way as he's incredibly talented. Instead he's a budget Diego Costa.

Pickford should have seen yellow as well. At least Alisson took a shot at him for all to see.
 

OCST

Sunny von Bulow
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[QUOTE

Gordon is a horrific diver.
[/QUOTE]

Sorry, just responding to this. I watch every minute of every Everton game and I’m transparent about the many flaws of Everton players and this is just not so. I would have called his yellow a dive if it was some game I had no rooting interest in. It’s far from the worst but I’ve seen it given, so fine.

But week in, week out, this is not the case. He is not a serial diver.

He got carded in a derby at Anfield and the pro-Liverpool media machine has made him into the villain with the black handlebar mustache. If the exact same play happens in a Watford-Southampton match it doesn’t make the national press at all, much less invite endless pearl clutching in national media.
 

SocrManiac

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Gordon went down every single time the ball was anywhere near him at Anfield. That’s not the media, that’s eyes. His entire kit was stained green by halftime. If he chose to be made of tissue paper but can hold his feet elsewhere, fuck him even more.
 

OCST

Sunny von Bulow
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Now that it looks pretty safe, you guys want to keep Lampard?
Yes. He was tactically naive at first, trying to play like he had a CL-level side with a high line and attractive attacking football, and got found out fast (most notably at Spurs, who stopped trying at 5-0 and could reasonably have had ten). He's adjusted to a pragmatic style, which is a fancy way of saying "park the bus" but has done a great job of identifying the strengths in underperforming players and getting the most out of them - Iwobi, Holgate, Delph are all plus performers now which would have been unthinkable not long ago. Mykolenko is blossoming and could be a star.

Most importantly he has rallied the fans and the team and there is a great feeling around the club for the first time in a long time. He seems to "get it." He's got the dedication and the passion that the fans demand and the players are responding. We don't stay up without him IMO.

Let's see what he does next season. He'll get some big salaries off the books. Mostly deadwood but I expect at least one of Richarlison or DCL (who has hurt his value) to be sold so he will have a little bit more money. There are young players doing well on loan that could be integrated into the first team. With some time to get a system in place I expect to be solid mid-table next season. It's low expectations but if he has time to build something I think he'll be fine.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Most importantly he has rallied the fans and the team and there is a great feeling around the club for the first time in a long time. He seems to "get it." He's got the dedication and the passion that the fans demand and the players are responding. We don't stay up without him IMO.
The club does seem quite galvanized.

From my outsiders perspective, it looks like at some point Lampard made a decision that he was just going to pick the players not necessarily who were the most talented but who were most up for the fight. And it has worked so far. Even yesterday when the team looked a bit timid and out of ideas in possession, everybody was working their ass off out of possession.

Assuming Everton stays up, I think that mentality provides a good cornerstone for the future.
 

Jimy Hendrix

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The club does seem quite galvanized.

From my outsiders perspective, it looks like at some point Lampard made a decision that he was just going to pick the players not necessarily who were the most talented but who were most up for the fight. And it has worked so far. Even yesterday when the team looked a bit timid and out of ideas in possession, everybody was working their ass off out of possession.

Assuming Everton stays up, I think that mentality provides a good cornerstone for the future.
When he changed the formation I was all set to joke about how they’re ending the season just playing Benitez-ball with a manager who is much worse at setting up that way, but then they started picking up the results to completely justify it, so fair enough to Frank.
 

Mighty Joe Young

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Yes. He was tactically naive at first, trying to play like he had a CL-level side with a high line and attractive attacking football, and got found out fast (most notably at Spurs, who stopped trying at 5-0 and could reasonably have had ten). He's adjusted to a pragmatic style, which is a fancy way of saying "park the bus" but has done a great job of identifying the strengths in underperforming players and getting the most out of them - Iwobi, Holgate, Delph are all plus performers now which would have been unthinkable not long ago. Mykolenko is blossoming and could be a star.

Most importantly he has rallied the fans and the team and there is a great feeling around the club for the first time in a long time. He seems to "get it." He's got the dedication and the passion that the fans demand and the players are responding. We don't stay up without him IMO.

Let's see what he does next season. He'll get some big salaries off the books. Mostly deadwood but I expect at least one of Richarlison or DCL (who has hurt his value) to be sold so he will have a little bit more money. There are young players doing well on loan that could be integrated into the first team. With some time to get a system in place I expect to be solid mid-table next season. It's low expectations but if he has time to build something I think he'll be fine.
So .. how are Everton looking FFP wise? I know they couldn’t sign anyone last summer due to the FFP restrictions.
 

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Sunny von Bulow
SoSH Member
Jan 10, 2004
24,483
The 718
So .. how are Everton looking FFP wise? I know they couldn’t sign anyone last summer due to the FFP restrictions.
Not great but it will be better. Big contracts for Delph, Cenk Tosun (already going back to Turkey) and Gylfi Sigurdsson will expire. Delph, shockingly, had become a useful piece in the past month after being hurt or bad or both for most of his contract. He might be back but only on a one year deal on short money.

Sadly some of the other older players still have another year to go, but assuming they don’t go down, a recoup of lost COVID income, and at least one big sale, they should be ok. They did lock in a good price on the stadium construction contract to hedge against rising costs that other clubs have marveled at them pulling off so they will help also. Sponsorships need to be revisited. USM, the holding company of oligarch Alisher Usmanov, and online car retailer Cazoo will not be back. New sponsor is supposedly a bettin or crypto dire which would suck, but they need as much £ as they can get. Stadium naming rights are still out there, obviously potential sponsors are waiting to see if they stay up.