Even Year Magick vs. They're Due!

judyb

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Papelbon wasn't on the team but he was in the organization, drafted in '03, so I guess he might count.
 

E5 Yaz

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Papelbon wasn't on the team but he was in the organization, drafted in '03, so I guess he might count.
Judy, Judy, Judy ... you're just going to confuse HelmetHead even more
 

soxfan121

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Since you keep saying this, what does this even mean? They were middle of the pack in salaries this year (at least to start the season), 14th overall, they have the polar opposite of NY's historical winning tradition. Does it just mean that like the late nineties Yankee teams, they are clearly the best team in baseball?
He probably means "they bought their way to the best team" which is a ludicrous criticism coming from a Red Sox fan but certainly not the most egregious statement on the board today.

I mean, if he were a Royals or a Brewers or a Twins fan it might have a bit of credibility behind it but we aren't Kansas City or Milwaukee or Minnesota, so it rings a bit hollow to everyone with a modicum of perspective.
 

rembrat

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He probably means "they bought their way to the best team" which is a ludicrous criticism coming from a Red Sox fan but certainly not the most egregious statement on the board today.
Dude why isn't that a thing anymore? We need to bring this back!
 

54thMA

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I love me some Bruce Bochy, but damn, that was some serious over managing.
John Farrell was wincing watching that shit.
Agreed; I'm hesitant to question he of the three WS titles, but I thought Romo was the de facto closer. He left him in for all of one batter, then yanked him. I find it hard to believe the two pitchers that followed him were properly warmed up and ready to pitch.

What a complete and utter meltdown; aside from game 6 of the 86 WS, I've never seen anything close to it in the playoffs.

Crawfords error was huge, that was a double play ball and ended up with the winning run on second and he promptly scored.

The Cubs did absolutely shit for 8 innings, were on the verge of having to pull out a game 5 win in the pressure cooker known as Wrigley field, then the roof caved in.

That's playoff baseball for you.
 

DisgruntledSoxFan77

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Does everyone hate the Cubs?

The hell...I get hating the manager, but it's Lester, it's history, it's Theo (whom I don't hate at all).
Lester, you mean the guy who said he didn't need top dollar to sign and then strung the Sox along to get top dollar from the Cubs? Yeah fuck him, and Theo can eat shit too.

In other words, I hate that team as much as I hate the Yankees and root against them strongly
 
Aug 18, 2010
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I was beginning to wonder if I had lost my mind, or if I was the only one on SOSH who remembers Lester saying that he didn't need to dollar and wanted to stay with the Red Sox. When it's all said and done I have more respect for guys like Papelbon and Ellsbury who made no bones about it, they were going for the cash. Guys like Lester , who played the "I love Boston" angle, or Damon who said he'd never play for the yankees and then signed with them to get top dollar, can go fry nice and kiss the fattest part of my ass.
 
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Hagios

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I think you're confusing "I don't need top dollar" Lester with "70 for 4 Lester" and "traded to the A's" Lester.
 

kenneycb

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Agreed; I'm hesitant to question he of the three WS titles, but I thought Romo was the de facto closer. He left him in for all of one batter, then yanked him. I find it hard to believe the two pitchers that followed him were properly warmed up and ready to pitch.

What a complete and utter meltdown; aside from game 6 of the 86 WS, I've never seen anything close to it in the playoffs.

Crawfords error was huge, that was a double play ball and ended up with the winning run on second and he promptly scored.

The Cubs did absolutely shit for 8 innings, were on the verge of having to pull out a game 5 win in the pressure cooker known as Wrigley field, then the roof caved in.

That's playoff baseball for you.
Romo was one of the worst closers in baseball with something like 12 blown saves and was brutal down the stretch. The bullpen is the primary reason they were struggling to make the playoffs so it's no surprise he had an absurdly short leash. The entire bullpen was dreck so it was much more of an exercise in "take a guess on who won't suck tonight".
 

54thMA

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Romo was one of the worst closers in baseball with something like 12 blown saves and was brutal down the stretch. The bullpen is the primary reason they were struggling to make the playoffs so it's no surprise he had an absurdly short leash. The entire bullpen was dreck so it was much more of an exercise in "take a guess on who won't suck tonight".
What a shame to blow a game like that; that bullpen was just awful, they are fortunate to have gotten as far as they did. No big secret what they will be addressing in the off season..............
 

Oppo

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What would be the matchup to root for to see the Cubs challenged? Cubs 4-3 against LAD and 5-2 against WAS this year. 3-4 and 4-3 in 2015.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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No, I'm talking about the Lester who said that about free agency in general and who then did exactly what he said he didn't need to do
Yes, I'm sure that if your company lowballed you, then shipped you off to a remote branch so you had to move your family for a month or two, that when your contract was up you would turn down and extra twenty million dollars or so to go back to the home office.
 

brandonchristensen

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Lester, you mean the guy who said he didn't need top dollar to sign and then strung the Sox along to get top dollar from the Cubs? Yeah fuck him, and Theo can eat shit too.

In other words, I hate that team as much as I hate the Yankees and root against them strongly
The Sox had a chance to sign him, passed and then when he hit the market (AFTER they traded him), he wanted his value and got it.

Sox wildly misplayed that.
 

DisgruntledSoxFan77

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Funny how this fanbase expected the team to lead with their best offer. It was a first offer, negotiations have to start somewhere. Instead of acting like an asshole perhaps a counteroffer from him to the team might have got things moving in the right direction. Sorry the poor baby got his feelings hurt. I'm glad he's gone, I never wanted him back to begin with.
 

LogansDad

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I adore Lester, really like Ross, like Theo, and don't dislike Lackey, when it comes to former Sox on the team. Rizzo and Bryant are great, and Arrieta is as much fun to watch as nearly any other pitcher in baseball right now. I am indifferent on Maddon, I never really hated him when he was the Rays manager, and while "genius" is a strong term I think he is better than a lot of folks give him credit for. Obviously Chapman can DIAF, and it will be hard to cheer if and when he records the final out.

I would love a Cubs vs. Indians WS, though.

But I think the biggest reason I would like the Cubs winning is how much it would piss off Cardinal fans. They are the real enemy here.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Funny how this fanbase expected the team to lead with their best offer. It was a first offer, negotiations have to start somewhere. Instead of acting like an asshole perhaps a counteroffer from him to the team might have got things moving in the right direction. Sorry the poor baby got his feelings hurt. I'm glad he's gone, I never wanted him back to begin with.
Can you provide more details of your experience sitting in on the negotiations? I'm sure everyone would love to hear the nitty gritty.
 

DisgruntledSoxFan77

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Well, we know they offered $70M/4 and then that's the end of it. Beyond that its rumors. So if you think that's legit reason to call him a crybaby then rock on dude.
With no reports of a counteroffer yes I do think it's a legit reason. Had he come back to them and said 5 years 120 mil and they stayed in their range, then I would agree it was the organizations fault. But with the evidence available it sounds like he received the one offer and never spoke to them again. To each his/her own if you disagree
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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With no reports of a counteroffer yes I do think it's a legit reason. Had he come back to them and said 5 years 120 mil and they stayed in their range, then I would agree it was the organizations fault. But with the evidence available it sounds like he received the one offer and never spoke to them again. To each his/her own if you disagree
So, I'll repeat my previous question, please regale us with your experience during the negotiations.

Not everything gets leaked to the media. We have no idea if they countered or said 'fuck off'. And frankly they gave him a pretty bullshit offer I don't think being offended by that is constitute for being a crybaby. Further he deserves to earn every penny he can.

To root against Lester is fucking horseshit. He's not fucking Lebron.
 

DisgruntledSoxFan77

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So, I'll repeat my previous question, please regale us with your experience during the negotiations.

Not everything gets leaked to the media. We have no idea if they countered or said 'fuck off'. And frankly they gave him a pretty bullshit offer I don't think being offended by that is constitute for being a crybaby. Further he deserves to earn every penny he can.

To root against Lester is fucking horseshit. He's not fucking Lebron.
And until we do know if there was a counteroffer we're going to keep going around in circles. Going by what is out there I made a semi-educated guess. Go ahead and show me different, but until you do, that's what I'm sticking with.

Yeah I love this fanbase's hatred for LeBron by the way! Where does that come from? Because he made a douchey video? Please tell me, I'm genuinely curious. I'm not into basketball really
 

Hagios

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There are two reasonable interpretations of the negotiations and both of them result in Lester
Funny how this fanbase expected the team to lead with their best offer. It was a first offer, negotiations have to start somewhere.
Negotiations can be hostile or collegial. Lester started out by stating that he didn't need top dollar, only to be met with a hostile offer from Luchino and then traded. Whatever goodwill Lester had originally was at that point gone. This is not a difficult concept.

I think the most charitable interpretation for the Red Sox is that this was Peak Don't Pay Pitchers Over 30.
 

DisgruntledSoxFan77

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There are two reasonable interpretations of the negotiations and both of them result in Lester


Negotiations can be hostile or collegial. Lester started out by stating that he didn't need top dollar, only to be met with a hostile offer from Luchino and then traded. Whatever goodwill Lester had originally was at that point gone. This is not a difficult concept.

I think the most charitable interpretation for the Red Sox is that this was Peak Don't Pay Pitchers Over 30.
Again, a first offer. Where should they have started, 10 years 400 million? All negotiations start somewhere. Wow, how unreasonable, 17 million per year. That's right around where they paid Lackey and Beckett. I said it before and I'll say it again, this conversation is going around in circles. I really don't care that the fanbase's affections are with him and the big, mean organization started with a low offer, it takes two to negotiate and he wasn't negotiating. Argue amongst yourselves, there's nothing more to say. No minds are being changed (and hell i'm not trying to change anyone's mind, I hate the guy, you love him, bully for you!), this is accomplishing nothing but turning yet another thread into what it wasn't created for. Go Dodgers, and enjoy the rest of the playoffs.
 

Hagios

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Again, a first offer. Where should they have started, 10 years 400 million?
Holy fallacy of the excluded middle Batman!

Assume the hometown deal was 5 for $120. Then the opening offer could be 5/100. I confess to not being familiar enough with the nuances of MLB free agency to have a good feel for what a well-placed opening offer should be, but everyone but DisgruntledSoxFan77 knows that 4/70 is a slap in the face.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Again, a first offer. Where should they have started, 10 years 400 million? All negotiations start somewhere. Wow, how unreasonable, 17 million per year. That's right around where they paid Lackey and Beckett. I said it before and I'll say it again, this conversation is going around in circles. I really don't care that the fanbase's affections are with him and the big, mean organization started with a low offer, it takes two to negotiate and he wasn't negotiating. Argue amongst yourselves, there's nothing more to say. No minds are being changed (and hell i'm not trying to change anyone's mind, I hate the guy, you love him, bully for you!), this is accomplishing nothing but turning yet another thread into what it wasn't created for. Go Dodgers, and enjoy the rest of the playoffs.
Well, Beckett and Lackey were signed years before that, so at the very least they probably should have started higher if for nothing else than inflation. Which isn't even touching on a 4 year offer, which is bullshit. Homer Bailey - who is and never has been near the pitcher Lester is - had recently signed a 6/$105 year deal with a mutual option. Lester was on record saying he would accept that. Yet the Sox came in at 4/$70.

It's cool that you have some kind of misplaced hatred of Lester for leaving, but the man made the decision that 99% of people would in his shoes and situation. The fault lies on LL/BC/JH for the fact he now is wearing a Cubs uniform and it's really not disputable.
 

Al Zarilla

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Romo was one of the worst closers in baseball with something like 12 blown saves and was brutal down the stretch.
You're thinking of Santiago Casilla, who closed most of the year for the Giants and was finally removed from the role when he got to 9 blown saves. I don't think Romo had any blown saves regular season but he was hurt for a lot of it and didn't close until they gave up on Casilla.
 

Erik Hanson's Hook

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Lester, you mean the guy who said he didn't need top dollar to sign and then strung the Sox along to get top dollar from the Cubs? Yeah fuck him, and Theo can eat shit too.

In other words, I hate that team as much as I hate the Yankees and root against them strongly
I was beginning to wonder if I had lost my mind, or if I was the only one on SOSH who remembers Lester saying that he didn't need to dollar and wanted to stay with the Red Sox. When it's all said and done I have more respect for guys like Papelbon and Ellsbury who made no bones about it, they were going for the cash. Guys like Lester , who played the "I love Boston" angle, or Damon who said he'd never play for the yankees and then signed with them to get top dollar, can go fry nice and kiss the fattest part of my ass.
I never really got the "root for the Cubs because of Jon Lester" angle, but it has nothing to do with the contract negotiations. I mean, he pitched well while he was here, but he always seemed kind of standoff-ish and surly. At the time I didn't care, because I root for the laundry, but he's not that important to me as far as former Sox go. Never really "connected" with him. Also, didn't he have a hand in the chicken and beer thing that helped get Tito fired?

I hope he gets rocked in every start, sending the Cubs and Maddon down in flames while the national media tries to decide what to do with itself.

Theo and Ross, I'm cool with. Lackey is a non-factor for me.
 
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Papelbon's Poutine

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I don't really get the "Root for the Cubs because JON LESTER!" angle, but it has nothing to do with the contract negotiations. I mean, he pitched well while he was here, but he always seemed kind of standoff-ish and surly. At the time I didn't care, because I root for the laundry, but he's not that important to me as far as former Sox go. Never really "connected" with him. Also, didn't he have a hand in the chicken and beer thing that helped get Tito fired?

I hope he gets rocked in every start, sending the Cubs and Maddon down in flames while the national media decides what to do with itself now that it's ratings-driven narrative is gone.
I prefer to remember the two World Series Lester helped deliver, his overcoming cancer, his charity work and his complete avoidance of being on the radar outside the stupidly fucking moronic "scandal" that was the chicken and beer thing that cost us Tito, even which for he stood up and apologized for and took responsibility. Meanwhile we laugh about the 04 team doing shots of Jack before games. But yeah, chicken and beer.

But by all means root against him for your bullshit reasons. Fuck that guy. He seemed surly.
 

keninten

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The 4/70 offer to Lester was based on his 2012/13 seasons. 2012 really sucked for him. In spring training of 2014 I thought was a good starting point in negotiations in that they were giving him decent money but going light on the years. Lester was entering his age 30 season. I didn`t think he was going to age well back then. Never did I think he would be doing what he is now. During his 2014 season it looked like a lowball offer just because he was pitching the best ball of his career. He continues to be better than he ever had. You do expect his best years to be his primes but who was thinking he was about to become an ace pitcher?
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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The 4/70 offer to Lester was based on his 2012/13 seasons. 2012 really sucked for him. In spring training of 2014 I thought was a good starting point in negotiations in that they were giving him decent money but going light on the years. Lester was entering his age 30 season. I didn`t think he was going to age well back then. Never did I think he would be doing what he is now. During his 2014 season it looked like a lowball offer just because he was pitching the best ball of his career. He continues to be better than he ever had. You do expect his best years to be his primes but who was thinking he was about to become an ace pitcher?
Would you like to debate the Sox rationale for their initial offer or the sentiment of 'fuck Jon Lester because he took the money"? Because those are two different conversations.
 

Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat

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I prefer to remember the two World Series Lester helped deliver, his overcoming cancer, his charity work and his complete avoidance of being on the radar outside the stupidly fucking moronic "scandal" that was the chicken and beer thing that cost us Tito, even which for he stood up and apologized for and took responsibility. Meanwhile we laugh about the 04 team doing shots of Jack before games. But yeah, chicken and beer.

But by all means root against him for your bullshit reasons. Fuck that guy. He seemed surly.
Why can't you just accept that some people choose to root against him(or at least not for him) instead of demeaning their reasons for doing so? Clay Buchholz does charity work, has avoided being on the radar as a Red Sox player, and helped deliver a World Series. And yet you are very vocal with your vitriol toward him. Is it because he didn't overcome cancer?
 

Hagios

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Why can't you just accept that some people choose to root against him(or at least not for him) instead of demeaning their reasons for doing so? Clay Buchholz does charity work, has avoided being on the radar as a Red Sox player, and helped deliver a World Series. And yet you are very vocal with your vitriol toward him. Is it because he didn't overcome cancer?
We're on a message board so the point of the exercise is to debate and justify our positions. People are welcome to hate Lester all they want, but if their justification is "he said he didn't need top dollar but lied" then they're being irrational and will get called on it.
 

trekfan55

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There is a caveat with Lester. Had he finished the 2014 season with the Red Sox and resumed negotiations then, maybe he would have kept his "not top dollar" word and signed, not at 4/$70 but he may have signed.

Once he was traded to Oakland at the deadline I think all bets were off, so to speak. At this point he and his agents considered the Sox one of many teams bidding for his services and proceeded.

All that being said, I really cannot blame any player for taking the top offer and signing with another team.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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Why can't you just accept that some people choose to root against him(or at least not for him) instead of demeaning their reasons for doing so? Clay Buchholz does charity work, has avoided being on the radar as a Red Sox player, and helped deliver a World Series. And yet you are very vocal with your vitriol toward him. Is it because he didn't overcome cancer?
I'm very vocal about my stance on Buchholz because of his performance on the field (or lack of the ability to stay on it). Not because he's a big meanie liar that left town. I have not said one word about him on a personal level, that I can recall, but if I'm mistaken on that, please feel free to correct me, at which point I'll consider your position on whether I should comment or not. In the meantime I'll continue to consider people giving him shit for signing with the Cubs to the point that they 'hate him' a wee bit irrational.
 

Bob Montgomery's Helmet Hat

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I'm very vocal about my stance on Buchholz because of his performance on the field (or lack of the ability to stay on it). Not because he's a big meanie liar that left town. I have not said one word about him on a personal level, that I can recall, but if I'm mistaken on that, please feel free to correct me, at which point I'll consider your position on whether I should comment or not. In the meantime I'll continue to consider people giving him shit for signing with the Cubs to the point that they 'hate him' a wee bit irrational.
OK, that's fine. Go Dodgers!!
 

Erik Hanson's Hook

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I prefer to remember the two World Series Lester helped deliver, his overcoming cancer, his charity work and his complete avoidance of being on the radar outside the stupidly fucking moronic "scandal" that was the chicken and beer thing that cost us Tito, even which for he stood up and apologized for and took responsibility. Meanwhile we laugh about the 04 team doing shots of Jack before games. But yeah, chicken and beer.

But by all means root against him for your bullshit reasons. Fuck that guy. He seemed surly.
Not saying fuck that guy. I remember all those things too, and don't root against Lester, more against the whole Cubs media machine happening right now. Him being on the team really doesn't do much to swing the needle the other way. That's all.

And the '04 team won, while the '11 team got a manager fired.

Edit: To be clear, I like Lester. Just not enough to make me root for Maddon and Chapman and ESPN and billygoats.
 
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