Euro 2020 FINAL: Is it coming home or going to Rome?

JayMags71

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That video title is fake. We need to do more research before spreading false information.

The above video (not that it makes it better), is ticket holders attacking those who breached security and entered without tickets. Has nothing to do with Italian fans.
Whhere are you getting this info? I’m not saying you’re wrong. You do need to back it up with sources, though.
 

OCST

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I was returning a rental car in Manhattan, around NYU, about 6:30. I was listening on my way in but my phone crapped out during extra time. I was wondering who won until I tried to take a left turn onto University Place an the whole block was blocked off by the cops, with Azzuri fans waving around their Italy flags and yelling. Probably about 50 people, many of them were visibly shitfaced.
 

Zososoxfan

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No, none.

He’s fantastic. He’s in a group with Gulasci, Navas, Schmeichal, Onana, & Szczęsny. There’s a lot of great keepers around these days.
I should've clarified that the second tier wasn't intended to list all the keepers innit, rather the notable players that are firmly on that level now or in Sczesny's case is no longer on that level. I think Lloris remains on that level for his elite shotstopping, leadership, organization qualities, and penalty stops, but his skill and distribution mean he can't be elite in the modern game.
 

Senator Donut

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This is making the rounds on financial Twitter, but the last five Eruopean Championships have been won by southern Eurozone nations derisively nicknamed PIGS (Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain) and all four countries have lifted the trophy. Seems pretty fitting that they beat a team from the United Kingdom.
 

Zososoxfan

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What a match! I haven't caught up on this thread, so I apologize as I'm sure much of this is repetitive.

Southgate's Trippier changeup was brilliant and it took all of 2 minutes for it to payoff. When Trippier left Spurs I thought it was the right choice for the club but boy was I wrong. Dude is still a stud.

The way that the Italians just hung in there (I was going to say 'kept their heads' but they actually didn't do that at all) until they could get a foothold in the match after 30 minutes was impressive. It's probably a combination of experienced players, good players, and good management but that match could've been iced during that first half hour. Chiesa is a stud and just incredible. Same goes for Verratti. Insigne was terrible from my recollection. What more can you say about Bonnucci and Chiellini. In the hallowed pantheon of Italian defenders. Bonnucci in particular played a 12/10 match.

Someone said it upthread, but Southgate had a great tournament and bad match. The penalties certainly stick out, but the fact that the third sub only came in the 99th minute of an intense match and England had tired legs all over the field is a big oversight. Italy had made 5 subs already by the time Southgate made his 3rd. Add in the lack of rotation up front for most of the tourney and this makes less sense.
 

67YAZ

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I continue to be so impressed by England’s Black players in their maturity, engagement, and willingness to speak out.

 

sodenj5

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Hindsight is 20/20, but it seems Southgate made a few critical tactical errors:

Parking the bus after taking a quick, surprising lead. They were happy to wall off Italy and play for the 1-0 win, but in reality, they gave Italy way too much time in the ball and eventually they found a way through.

Not playing Sancho or Rashford until the final minutes, especially when it seems they could have used some attacking reinforcements.

The pens will get talked about, but that typically comes down to who wants to take one. Credit the young guys for stepping up, but no way should Saka have been 5th, and if you’re subbing on 2 guys specifically for pens, you have to do it sooner.
 

Kliq

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The thing about the subs for England is that both Saka and Henderson were very bad when they came on. Saka's only noticeable contribution was getting strangled by Chilellini and Henderson was giving the ball away and had a few ghastly touches. I don't blame Southgate for bringing Henderson on, he is a good player for that situation given his experience, but it was unfortunate he had such a bad game.

Penalties are weird; outside of designated PK takers for their clubs, like Kane, we don't really know who is good and who is bad at them. For all we know Saka is an excellent PK taker in practice, but since he plays at a big club with a lot of talented players, we have never seen him take one.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Even if you're adamant that Saka has to be one of your penalty takers based on his training performance, there is absolutely no reason to have him shoot fifth. Let him shoot second or third when there is less weight on your shoulders. There is a reason that Jorginho (miss or not) was shooting fifth for Italy, the pressure is immense at that point.

That would be true in any case. But Saka also honestly looked out of sorts all match. I've seen nearly every professional match he has played and I've never seen him play like he did yesterday. He is usually so composed and confident in his actions, but yesterday he looked very tentative, lost the ball a few times, and then was almost hiding from the ball toward the end. I really don't understand how Southgate couldn't see that as well.
 

Kliq

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Even if you're adamant that Saka has to be one of your penalty takers based on his training performance, there is absolutely no reason to have him shoot fifth. Let him shoot second or third when there is less weight on your shoulders. There is a reason that Jorginho (miss or not) was shooting fifth for Italy, the pressure is immense at that point.

That would be true in any case. But Saka also honestly looked out of sorts all match. I've seen nearly every professional match he has played and I've never seen him play like he did yesterday. He is usually so composed and confident in his actions, but yesterday he looked very tentative, lost the ball a few times, and then was almost hiding from the ball toward the end. I really don't understand how Southgate couldn't see that as well.
I thought Saka played well in the tournament; he started the Denmark game and made a brilliant run and squared the ball for the own goal. I could see why Southgate thought he could make a difference as a sub (even if there are better players on the bench). I think people are making too much out of the order of the penalty kick takers. I suppose you could have had him go 2nd or 3rd, where he wouldn't have been in the killer slot at #5, but it all depends on how the kicks are taken. Italy put their best PK taker last, which is good for how the shoot-out worked out (even though he missed) but you also run the risk of them not even taking a PK if some other players miss. England took their best PK taker and had him go first, which ensures they take a PK and also helps you get off to a strong start in the shoot-out. Saka wouldn't even have had to take a PK if Rashford/Sancho made their kicks.

As for what kind of penalties they take; Rashford is getting shit for missing the target completely but I'd rather have someone shoot an unsaveable penalty and miss the target than someone take a more conservative shot that is easier to save. With Sancho/Saka, it was basically a 50% chance it is saved as long as Donnarumma guesses the right way.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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I thought Saka played well in the tournament; he started the Denmark game and made a brilliant run and squared the ball for the own goal. I could see why Southgate thought he could make a difference as a sub (even if there are better players on the bench). I think people are making too much out of the order of the penalty kick takers. I suppose you could have had him go 2nd or 3rd, where he wouldn't have been in the killer slot at #5, but it all depends on how the kicks are taken. Italy put their best PK taker last, which is good for how the shoot-out worked out (even though he missed) but you also run the risk of them not even taking a PK if some other players miss. England took their best PK taker and had him go first, which ensures they take a PK and also helps you get off to a strong start in the shoot-out. Saka wouldn't even have had to take a PK if Rashford/Sancho made their kicks.
I have no problem with Saka being brought on as a sub. I'm just saying that Southgate should have been able to see that he was mentally not on his game. I don't know if the match was a little too big for him at this age or what but it was obvious to me that something was not quite right. I was saying it to friends repeatedly during the match. To then have him shoot fifth is just crazy.

The conventional wisdom is that your best penalty takers go first and fifth, to get you off to a good start and then to shoot when there is maximum pressure. I really do think there is a difference in the pressure players feel if their kick could actually decide the match. Its the main reason why teams going first win shootouts like 55% of the time or something like that. In this case, I don't think somebody like Harry Maguire is a better penalty taker than Bukayo Saka. But I would certainly back your vice captain and veteran CB to handle the extreme pressure of a match deciding kick better than a 19-year-old who has looked nervy as hell all match. So why not put Saka 2nd and Maguire 5th?

If the argument is that he was protecting Saka because the 5th guy might not have to shoot, that's a better argument if you're shooting second than if you're shooting first. How often does the first team to shoot not even take their fifth kick? I can't imagine that happens more than like 20% of the time, as you need to have one team up by two after four.

As for what kind of penalties they take; Rashford is getting shit for missing the target completely but I'd rather have someone shoot an unsaveable penalty and miss the target than someone take a more conservative shot that is easier to save. With Sancho/Saka, it was basically a 50% chance it is saved as long as Donnarumma guesses the right way.
Agree with this. Donnarumma is a total beast on penalties, its really hard to beat him if he chooses correctly so there's a strong case for taking a bit more risk. Kane's penalty was perfect but that easily could have been missed. Maguire's penalty was unsaveable but I guarantee if he does that technique 10 times a few of them are flying into Row Zed.
 
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BigSoxFan

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For someone who is only a casual soccer fan, what is the general mindset on PKs? I noticed that Kane went 1st when he is probably the best of the bunch so it seems like the strategy is to get your top guys in there early so that you don't lose 4-2 with your top guy not getting a chance, for instance. But that strategy also leads to situations like yesterday where you have an unproven kid kicking the final one. I find the strategy to be fascinating.
 

67YAZ

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First, I don't understand the volunteer thing. Credit to all the guys who volunteered to step up, but why doesn't the manager already have a rank-ordered list at the ready from which he assigns kicking slots? Let the players focus on executing their job in their spot and let the whole squad know in advance that that spot is.

In terms of the order, I always thought you put your best taker at #3 - it's the first time a shoot out can be won or lost, so it could be high pressure. Your second best goes first, your third best goes fourth, fourth goes second, and fifth goes fifth. But again, there's many good reasons why I'm coaching boys & girls club U-12 and not a national team.
 

sodenj5

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First, I don't understand the volunteer thing. Credit to all the guys who volunteered to step up, but why doesn't the manager already have a rank-ordered list at the ready from which he assigns kicking slots? Let the players focus on executing their job in their spot and let the whole squad know in advance that that spot is.

In terms of the order, I always thought you put your best taker at #3 - it's the first time a shoot out can be won or lost, so it could be high pressure. Your second best goes first, your third best goes fourth, fourth goes second, and fifth goes fifth. But again, there's many good reasons why I'm coaching boys & girls club U-12 and not a national team.
Fifth goes fifth? You want your worst pk taker going last to clinch it or force sudden death?

1 and 5 are the most important in my opinion, and the manager asks for volunteers because if you send a guy up there that doesn’t want the pressure, you might as well not send anyone up there at all. PKs are a gigantic mental game.

Put your most confident players in there or the ones that want to take the shot. Sancho has taken PKs for Dortmund, but the guy was ice cold coming off the bench tasked with the biggest moment of his life. Extremely difficult position to be in, but I’m sure he told Southgate he wanted to do it.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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More players - particularly nervous players - should hit the ball up the middle in penalty shootouts.
Agreed. The standard here is Anderson in the 2008 CL final, who for some reason was chosen to shoot fifth and admitted afterward that he was completely shitting himself and so he just decided to hit the ball as hard as he could, close his eyes, and pray. And the replay looks pretty much exactly like that. He takes this huge runup and then just crushes it down the middle.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6YNuZkb3V0
 

BaseballJones

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More players - particularly nervous players - should hit the ball up the middle in penalty shootouts.
I agree. The keeper almost always (I mean, I’ve never seen him NOT) dives to one side or the other. Seems like kicking down the middle would be pretty effective. One of the Italian players did just this.

Obviously game theory comes into play...the more guys start doing that, the more keepers will just stay at home but until then it seems like a sound strategy.
 
The keeper almost always (I mean, I’ve never seen him NOT) dives to one side or the other.
Tony Meola saved a Czechoslovakian penalty in the 1990 World Cup when the player in question (I forget who he was) tried a chip down the middle - Meola didn't move and basically caught the ball in slow motion. I couldn't find it in a quick YouTube search, but you should try and find it; it's pretty hilarious.
 

SocrManiac

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The day after the last time Italy beat England on penalties, I had a tournament somewhere in Western Mass. One of our games went to penalties, and two of the five guys attempted Panenkas on me. Of course, being amateur players, they telegraphed it all to hell and it was easy to just stand up and catch the ball.

My general experience in the amateur game was a lot of players actually do go down the middle, probably for this exact reason.
 

67YAZ

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Fifth goes fifth? You want your worst pk taker going last to clinch it or force sudden death?

1 and 5 are the most important in my opinion, and the manager asks for volunteers because if you send a guy up there that doesn’t want the pressure, you might as well not send anyone up there at all. PKs are a gigantic mental game.

Put your most confident players in there or the ones that want to take the shot. Sancho has taken PKs for Dortmund, but the guy was ice cold coming off the bench tasked with the biggest moment of his life. Extremely difficult position to be in, but I’m sure he told Southgate he wanted to do it.
"Worst." Your 5th best is still in the top-half of the takers available to you. And after your best 1 or 2, there isn't much difference in skill or rack record since most club teams have a designated taker. \\

Here's what the club PK record is for each of the English players:
Kane - 24/27
Rashford - 6/8
Sterling - 1/4
Mount, Sancho, James, Henderson, Coady - 1/1
All others - 0 attempts

Kane is clearly your #1 and Rashford your #2. Sterling's record gives a lot of pause, something is clearly up with his technique whether he's missing the frame or telegraphing the direction. And the rest? Go by what you see in practice. It's a skill, so it is directly observable.

Which again tells me that the manager should be working to take the pressure off players by assigning them a slot in advance of the match. Allow guys to visualize stepping up as #3 or #5 against Donnarumma and pinging the ball exactly where they want. Take out all of the confusion of the moment. Because, who wouldn't volunteer? If you're out there in extra time of a cup final, you've got to be teeming with confidence or otherwise you shouldn't be on the pitch.