ESPN: MLB reportedly weighing six-inning requirement for starting pitchers

[Jace II]

Yeah, I don't agree with any of this, I think it's just what fans have gotten used to. And boxing and tennis are individual sports, baseball is a team sport.

If the NBA cut down games to 36 or 40 minutes so that teams almost never had to substitute, that would help this kind of bullshit narrative but it would also make the sport worse IMO.

Sports are by nature ultimately pointless entertainment. They are all "bullshit". You may feel really strongly personally, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the majority of fans agree with you.

Fans may be used to starting pitchers pitching deeper into games, but that doesn't mean the new optimized max effort reliever brigade is more interesting to them. I've seen years of both and I know which one I am more drawn to.

Lastly, baseball is probably by far the most individual of team sports. The vast majority of the game is 1 vs 1. I think the narrative matters to most people, to different degrees

 

[simplicio]

But it wasn't that long ago that it wasn't that way. 10 years ago there weren't an army of max effort pitchers all willing to shred their elbows to make the majors.

There definitely was, they just didn't have the advanced tracking tools available to gamify and optimize the shredding of said elbows yet.

 

[Gdiguy]

Way way way bigger problems that need to be addressed:
2) The inane postseason system which decrees that if the three best teams in the league are all in the same division, only one can make the CS (1 vs 4/5).

Really?

I'm the other way entirely - if you're third in your division, you should be thanking your lucky stars you're even in the playoffs, much less complaining that there's a harder path to get there

but in general - I don't really care about that stuff, if you want to win the WS then just win, don't worry about strategically figuring out what teams would be better to play against

 

[jon abbey]

Really?

I'm the other way entirely - if you're third in your division, you should be thanking your lucky stars you're even in the playoffs, much less complaining that there's a harder path to get there

Divisions shouldn't exist, two leagues, top however many teams make the playoffs.

Since divisions aren't going to disappear, just order the postseason teams by W/L record.

 

[Jace II]

Way way way bigger problems that need to be addressed:

1) Umpire incompetence (being addressed).

2) The inane postseason system which decrees that if the three best teams in the league are all in the same division, only one can make the CS (1 vs 4/5).

3) The insulting and amateurish national TV coverage, every single national game sucks and it goes a long way to ruining the postseason for me.

I don't think there's anything stopping baseball from improving on unrelated issues simultaneously.

 

[jon abbey]

It's like forcing NBA teams to have a mandatory 7 footer on the court at all times, just let the sport evolve.

 

[Ale Xander]

I don't think there's anything stopping baseball from improving on unrelated issues simultaneously.

Manfred

 

[simplicio]

Manfred

Yeah he should maybe be #1 on jon's list.

 

[Jace II]

Manfred

Sure, I mean in theory or an internet discussion board context anyway.

 

[Max Power]

It's like forcing NBA teams to have a mandatory 7 footer on the court at all times, just let the sport evolve.

They did. And it evolved into something that's less fun to watch. When that happens in the NFL or NBA, they change the rules. MLB is trying to do the same.

 

[jon abbey]

They did. And it evolved into something that's less fun to watch. When that happens in the NFL or NBA, they change the rules. MLB is trying to do the same.

And they're looking in the wrong place IMO.

 

[Jace II]

They did. And it evolved into something that's less fun to watch. When that happens in the NFL or NBA, they change the rules. MLB is trying to do the same.

This is generally how I feel. Just because something is statistically optimized doesn't mean it's interesting. I can go watch stock market tickers to see algorithms facing off in realtime. It's profitable, but it's not entertainment.

I think the minimum innings rule is arbitrary and messes with fundamental dynamics too much, but I'm not against evolving the rules in an attempt to both reverse the diminishment of importance of the starting pitcher and at least somewhat improve the injury situation.

 

[jon abbey]

I'm not against evolving the rules in an attempt to both reverse the diminishment of importance of the starting pitcher and at least somewhat improve the injury situation.

Fix the strike zone and see where things are then. Maybe if pitchers knew strikes would actually be called, they'd be able to pitch deeper into games.

 

[Mighty Joe Young]

The whole discussion is really about the effect the max effort revolution - and it is a revolution - has had on the game. It’s the strikeouts. I’m with Bill Lee. Strikeouts are fascist.

The game was designed/evolved with the physical limits of players in mind. 60’6” and 90’ are kind of arbitrary - but it worked for 120 plus years. Now sports science has obliterated that balance.

The decline of the starting pitcher is just an artifact…

So how to restore that balance …

- try moving the mound back a few feet - although that could have the effect of making breaking balls even harder to hit.

- banning sweepers

- put limitations on revs/sec

- limit roster sizes to favour endurance over stuff.

The union will complain about anything that hinders any given player’s stats. But it’s a fools argument. If you’re good enough to make a major league roster you’ll still get paid relative to the league.

 

[SirPsychoSquints]

The whole discussion is really about the effect the max effort revolution - and it is a revolution - has had on the game. It’s the strikeouts. I’m with Bill Lee. Strikeouts are fascist.

The game was designed/evolved with the physical limits of players in mind. 60’6” and 90’ are kind of arbitrary - but it worked for 120 plus years. Now sports science has obliterated that balance.

The decline of the starting pitcher is just an artifact…

So how to restore that balance …

- try moving the mound back a few feet - although that could have the effect of making breaking balls even harder to hit.

- banning sweepers

- put limitations on revs/sec

- limit roster sizes to favour endurance over stuff.

The union will complain about anything that hinders any given player’s stats. But it’s a fools argument. If you’re good enough to make a major league roster you’ll still get paid relative to the league.

Yes no no yes

 

[Max Power]

Fix the strike zone and see where things are then. Maybe if pitchers knew strikes would actually be called, they'd be able to pitch deeper into games.

Umpires miss a handful of pitches per game. And pitchers who show the ability to paint the corners get an even wider zone than in the rulebook. This is a completely unrelated issue.

 

[jon abbey]

And pitchers who show the ability to paint the corners get an even wider zone than in the rulebook.

This might have been true decades back but there is no way this is true currently.

 

[jon abbey]

Anyway, I will back out of this conversation now, I have made my point/s. I had a good friend die unexpectedly yesterday (just 49) and am still reeling a bit, probably not the best mindset for theoretical baseball arguments/discussions.

 

[jose melendez]

Isn't the better way to address this to limit the number of pitchers on the roster?

 

[TheYellowDart5]

Isn't the better way to address this to limit the number of pitchers on the roster?

It's the only sensible solution at least.

 

[jose melendez]

Divisions shouldn't exist, two leagues, top however many teams make the playoffs.

Since divisions aren't going to disappear, just order the postseason teams by W/L record.

Dear God no. Playing 162 games for fucking seeding would make the baseball regular season even dumber than the NBA's and NHL's. That's the thing that would literally ruin baseball for me.

 

[Hank Scorpio]

What’s the proper term to measure the strain put on a pitcher’s arm? Is it torque?

Do we know how much less strenuous a 94 MPH fastball is compared to a 98?

I’d love to see starters routinely going 6-7 innings again, so I’m for it if they can credibly pull it off. I do wonder if this will just cause pitchers to get hammered more often though.

 

[BaseballJones]

What’s the proper term to measure the strain put on a pitcher’s arm? Is it torque?

Do we know how much less strenuous a 94 MPH fastball is compared to a 98?

I’d love to see starters routinely going 6-7 innings again, so I’m for it if they can credibly pull it off. I do wonder if this will just cause pitchers to get hammered more often though.

It's not so much that 98 is harder on the arm than 94. Depends on the pitcher. The issue is that what we're seeing is pitchers give max effort on like every pitch - maxing out velocity on the FB, spin on the curve, etc. There's no more pacing oneself to get through a large number of innings, no more "pitching to contact". It's all about getting maximum results on each pitch.

 

[scottyno]

Fix the strike zone and see where things are then. Maybe if pitchers knew strikes would actually be called, they'd be able to pitch deeper into games.

Based on 2023 numbers umps were slightly more likely to call a ball a strike than a strike a ball, 3.6% to 3%, so while I agree that they should fix the strike zone, because with the technology that we have there's no reason not to, I don't think it would really do much for pitchers going deeper into games.

 

[Margo McCready]

If it’s true that a pitcher’s elbow is at greater risk having to grip the ball tighter to compensate for the sticky stuff ban, then I really hope they’ll revisit those rules if they’re really going to pursue this.

 

[kfoss99]

- try moving the mound back a few feet - although that could have the effect of making breaking balls even harder to hit.

I like this idea. Messing with roster construction rubs me the wrong way. I don't like the runner on second base in extra innings and minimum batters and/or innings for pitchers. I'd rather tweak the playing field and equipment. That's happened over the decades.
1. See what raising or lowering the mound does to help the game.
2. Deaded the ball to reduce the three-true outcome results.
3. See what change baseball bat weight does to reduce three-true outcome results and gets more balls in play. I saw a YouTube video of a guy using different weighted bats and wood that players used throughout the years. Jimmy Foxx and Babe Ruth swung clubs and he had to put a lot more effort into his swings.

Theo was on Bill Simmons' podcast a while ago and mentioned that fans find the game much more interesting when there's balls in play and runners on base.

Great starting pitchers are superstars in a way that openers really can't be. The league, I think, would be better off with pitchers that could win 250 or 300 games in a career.

 

[radsoxfan]

This is obviously an insane idea that could never be legislated or ever happen.... but I admit it would be kind of funny watching some guy giving up 20 runs because the manager is not actually allowed to take him out.

At best they can tweak the roster rules to encourage longer outings as mentioned above. Maybe some monetary (or other) incentives for players/teams that have starters pitch longer over the course of the year, but even that is probably silly.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

I mean, if you want pitchers to last longer in games (I personally don't care at all), ban the pitching machines that every team now has that can mimic the specific repertoire of any pitcher and that guys can go hit against between ABs.

Sounds like they should just let the machines pitch - and voila, no injuries!

(Sorry to hear about your friend. Condolences.)

 

[EdRalphRomero]

I hate this idea. And I hate my proposal to implement this idea. But…gun to my head, if you remove the starter before the 6th inning, you lose the DH. It at least keeps it in the parameters of baseball decision making. But, to be clear, this idea sucks and my idea is only slightly less sucky.

 

[simplicio]

I hate this idea. And I hate my proposal to implement this idea. But…gun to my head, if you remove the starter before the 6th inning, you lose the DH. It at least keeps it in the parameters of baseball decision making. But, to be clear, this idea sucks and my idea is only slightly less sucky.

That's the "double hook" rule in question. They've been testing it in indie ball this year (prior to 5 IP).

 

[EdRalphRomero]

That's the "double hook" rule in question. They've been testing it in indie ball this year (prior to 5 IP).

Oh. Well great. I guess I think like Rob Manfred then. Crap.

 

[simplicio]

Oh. Well great. I guess I think like Rob Manfred then. Crap.

Don't you have some minor leaguers to be screwing over somewhere?

 

[jose melendez]

I hate this idea. And I hate my proposal to implement this idea. But…gun to my head, if you remove the starter before the 6th inning, you lose the DH. It at least keeps it in the parameters of baseball decision making. But, to be clear, this idea sucks and my idea is only slightly less sucky.

That's not bad.

 

[Humphrey]

While I like the idea as outlined the “exceptions” would need some tweaking - for example the “earned runs” qualifier. The whole concept of earned vs unearned runs is silly in general, and as an official qualifier is just dumb. What constitutes a hit or an error varies widely from ballpark to ballpark and official scorer to scorer.

I love the idea of the Double Hook. Anything to remove that abomination (the Opener) as a viable strategy is a good idea.

I always thought something like that would have been a good compromise between the AL and NL rules. It would in a lot of cases push the DH down in the batting order; you wouldn't want to leave a big hole in the top of the order.

 

[BigSoxFan]

This is obviously an insane idea that could never be legislated or ever happen.... but I admit it would be kind of funny watching some guy giving up 20 runs because the manager is not actually allowed to take him out.

At best they can tweak the roster rules to encourage longer outings as mentioned above. Maybe some monetary (or other) incentives for players/teams that have starters pitch longer over the course of the year, but even that is probably silly.

He was a RP but that effectively happened last year with Barraclough. Something like 10 ER in 3-4 IP.

 

[Philip Jeff Frye]

I’d love to see starters routinely going 6-7 innings again, so I’m for it if they can credibly pull it off. I do wonder if this will just cause pitchers to get hammered more often though.

Agreed on the first part - the evolution of pitching staffs into a large group of anonymous, interchangeable hard throwers who are routinely rotated through the IL and/or the minors has really made baseball boring to me. As for the second part, maybe MLB would like to see more pitchers get hammered. Everything the NFL has done in the last 40 years has been with more scoring in mind, and "chicks dig the long ball", right?

 

[Margo McCready]

Extra balls in the draft lottery for the top team (top five teams?) in starter innings pitched.

 

[YTF]

This is obviously an insane idea that could never be legislated or ever happen.... but I admit it would be kind of funny watching some guy giving up 20 runs because the manager is not actually allowed to take him out.

At best they can tweak the roster rules to encourage longer outings as mentioned above. Maybe some monetary (or other) incentives for players/teams that have starters pitch longer over the course of the year, but even that is probably silly.

To your first paragraph, I see this as a huge concern. My starter has given up three runs, it's the second inning, there are no outs and two men on base. It's mid September, my team is fighting for the last playoff spot with the team we're playing, my bullpen is in pretty good shape, but MLB is pretty much dictating that I punt the game.

 

[Sad Sam Jones]

Tanner Bibee has had a recurring issue with cramping. I guess he'd either have to gut through an increased risk of injury or go on the IL for something he'll be completely recovered from by his post-game interview.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

Given that I originally thought the yellow first down line was stupid, it's usually a good idea for me not to reflexively judge these rule and game change things.

It's an interesting discussion and I like the posts. Like others, I don't quite understand how this is consistent with limiting injuries, but I think this is the opening salvo in what will probably be a discussion that evolves over time, and the truth is that MLB has been pretty good with rule changes in the recent past.

I wonder what you do with ejected pitchers. Seems pretty easy for a pitcher in the fourth inning to argue a ball/strike call and get ejected. I suppose you could add to the rule and say if the starter was no eligible to be removed on some other ground, ejection requires him to miss his next start or something?

 

[8slim]

And since ultimately this is entertainment, 'what version of the sport is less interesting' is actually an important thing to consider

They did. And it evolved into something that's less fun to watch. When that happens in the NFL or NBA, they change the rules. MLB is trying to do the same.

This is generally how I feel. Just because something is statistically optimized doesn't mean it's interesting. I can go watch stock market tickers to see algorithms facing off in realtime. It's profitable, but it's not entertainment.

I couldn’t agree more with you guys.

Baseball is entertainment. And I, for one, feel like the way the game has evolved over the past 15 years has made it decidedly less entertaining. Boring as shit at times, actually.

The pitch clock, shift ban, and extra inning ghost runner rules have been awesome, IMHO.

I don’t imagine this one will ever be implemented as proposed. However, anything this sport can do to introduce more balls in play, and more scoring from those balls in play, is most welcome.

MLB is long past the point of needing to be precious about the game. I don’t want radically stupid changes, but baseball can be much more entertaining and unique than it is. Almost every club is the same these days. They evaluate players the same ways they play the game the same way. It stinks.

 

[Toe Nash]

I don't think the sport is less interesting to watch, I think it's interesting that managers are using strategy and analytics and science instead of just doing what people have always done. It's the same batter-pitcher interaction at its core it's just different. Like how people thought the shifts were bad even though they barely affected the game -- it's different from what you grew up with, but is it really bad? New narratives and challenges will form without a starter needing to go through the lineup three times. It's OK, I promise.

Dear God no. Playing 162 games for fucking seeding would make the baseball regular season even dumber than the NBA's and NHL's. That's the thing that would literally ruin baseball for me.

This is unrelated but if we're talking about changing rules we could also just start caring about who wins the regular season more. Fans could literally just decide that the Orioles' 2023 season for example deserves praise and maybe a trophy for how dominant they were in the regular season even if it ended with a bad week. In NFL it's one thing since the season is short but there are 162 games! I will never understand why Americans are so wedded to only the playoffs mattering that they will laugh if you suggest this.

 

[Sad Sam Jones]

This is unrelated but if we're talking about changing rules we could also just start caring about who wins the regular season more. Fans could literally just decide that the Orioles' 2023 season for example deserves praise and maybe a trophy for how dominant they were in the regular season even if it ended with a bad week. In NFL it's one thing since the season is short but there are 162 games! I will never understand why Americans are so wedded to only the playoffs mattering that they will laugh if you suggest this.

As a Cleveland fan, I often think if the Guardians ever win a World Series, I can die a happy man. Then I consider that I've probably rooted for a dozen Cleveland teams that were better than the 2023 Texas Rangers and question why the hell it even matters.

 

[Big Papa Smurph]

On the today's episode of Effectively Wild (they start talking about this at the 30:30 mark), Ben Statheaded how many starts this season had fewer than 6 inning pitched, with 3 or fewer earned runs allowed, and 99 or fewer pitchers. There have been about 3600 starts this year and 1200 have failed to meet those qualifiers listed above - so 1/3 of the starts this year would be in violation of these proposed rules. Ben found that over 1000 of these 1200 starts went 3 innings or more - so not openers. Obviously, some of these games include pitchers being taken out for injury, but Ben didn't have that info - it seems like somebody would have to go through the list and manually cross-check each start for injury information. (Here is a link to his Stathead query - you'll need to be a subscriber to see everything). Despite all this information, both Ben and Meg would be against these rule changes.

 

[cannonball 1729]

It's like forcing NBA teams to have a mandatory 7 footer on the court at all times, just let the sport evolve.

Basketball's actually a really interesting comp, because they're currently dealing with the "load management" issue as well and trying to find ways to get star players to play more.

 

[cannonball 1729]

Anyway, I will back out of this conversation now, I have made my point/s. I had a good friend die unexpectedly yesterday (just 49) and am still reeling a bit, probably not the best mindset for theoretical baseball arguments/discussions.

Good lord, man - I'm so sorry! I hope you can find some peace in this difficult time.

 

[jon abbey]

Good lord, man - I'm so sorry! I hope you can find some peace in this difficult time.

Thanks, it helps a bit that the whole worldwide experimental music community knew and loved him. I posted the brief Pitchfork obit here elsewhere yesterday, sorry for the repost.

https://pitchfork.com/news/dean-roberts-experimental-composer-in-thela-and-white-winged-moth-dies/

As for the NBA, I despise the new load management rules there too. The problem there clearly is that the regular season is 10-20 games too long, but leagues never shorten seasons as it means they would lose money.