ESPN Is Pathetic

Cesar Crespo

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It was pro Jock. It's been said about men. It's been said about Brad Stevens somewhere on this very board when the C's wanted to go with a coach with playing experience.

It's a stupid take, sure.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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So many dudes (myself included) who are so certain there's no misogyny. I just don't get how you are all so confident as to Garcia's intent.
Misogyny doesn't necessarily require intent. It is often an unconscious bias.

Sure, the arguments Garcia made could and have been made about men too. In this case, I'll just point again to the fact that Stephen A Smith said similar things about Garappalo's performance in the same segment that Kimes did, but it was Kimes that was the sole target of Garcia's reaction. Stephen A never played the game either, but it was only Kimes' lack of experience that Garcia vitriolically went after. Whether he meant it or not, I think it's obvious Garcia's reaction was influenced by Kimes' gender.
 

johnmd20

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Fucking christ, it's just a figure of speech.

If there's anything SoSH needs more of, it is definitely someone pedantically parsing language for absolutely no reason whatsoever. We certainly don't have enough of those.
If I said to you, "Why are you losing your mind?" would you find that an accurate way to describe the above response?

You, in your post, said Garcia lost his mind on that call and well as posted the Tweet saying the same thing. And then I listened and there were no indications whatsoever that he lost his mind. I was responding to what you posted. What are we doing here on this board if not discussing the things posted on the board?

But thank you for the condescension.
 

cromulence

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It was pro Jock. It's been said about men. It's been said about Brad Stevens somewhere on this very board when the C's wanted to go with a coach with playing experience.

It's a stupid take, sure.
This is so weak. If you think there was no misogyny at all behind Garcia's reaction, you're absolutely kidding yourself. You're awfully eager to dismiss the possibility, and I don't know you well enough to understand why, but it's a bad look.

As for the Garcia interview, what are we doing here? Gatekeeping mind losing? Soxy was just using the language from the tweet, which is obviously hyperbole. Did Jeff Garcia literally go insane? No. Did he completely lose his cool, throw a little tantrum, and storm off? Absolutely. Works for me. I can't believe anyone thinks that was worth parsing and arguing about.
 

johnmd20

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This is so weak. If you think there was no misogyny at all behind Garcia's reaction, you're absolutely kidding yourself. You're awfully eager to dismiss the possibility, and I don't know you well enough to understand why, but it's a bad look.

As for the Garcia interview, what are we doing here? Gatekeeping mind losing? Soxy was just using the language from the tweet, which is obviously hyperbole. Did Jeff Garcia literally go insane? No. Did he completely lose his cool, throw a little tantrum, and storm off? Absolutely. Works for me. I can't believe anyone thinks that was worth parsing and arguing about.
Oh man. You just NUKED CRESPO INTO ORBIT!!!11!!!!
 

johnmd20

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What the fuck are you even doing in this thread? Thought you were smarter than this.
Now you nuked me into orbit. Lots of nuking going on. I might just lose my mind.

I do appreciate how you never miss a chance to look down upon someone and judge them for something, usually in a snarky manner that is insulting but with the pretension that you care. Back to back posts to two people, too. It's cool.
 

cromulence

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Man, you're really projecting here. You just picked a fight because you felt Soxy was being unfair to poor Jeff Garcia, and then you were extremely eager to turn around and start coming at me, but I'm the one who's running around NUKINGGGG!1! people? OK then.
 

Average Reds

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The last 30 or 40 posts in this thread have been something.

Mina Kimes gave a lazy, needlessly incendiary take on Jimmy G. because that's what ESPN does. (It's worth it to keep in mind that this thread is dedicated to discussing just that activity.) This prompted a ridiculous overreaction from Jeff Garcia. Which, in turn, has caused members to decide it's not fair for ESPN reporters and their critics to be the only ones beclowning themselves in public.

As was pointed out, Kimes was trying to make a Simmons-esque "look how cool I can be" comment. Whether she feels validated by Sunday's game is irrelevant. It was moronic take.

Of course, she was outdone by Garcia, who was so triggered that he employed a dishonest trope (almost exclusively used by those without the ability to make a logical argument) to shield athletes from criticism coming from "outside the club" of former athletes. While not technically misogynistic, we can certainly infer intent because this trope is often used to brand female reporters as illegitimate.

Do we really need to beat our chests to prove anything beyond this?

Edit: I should add that I don’t moderate this forum, so I’m posting as a member.
 

CreightonGubanich

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Possible misogyny aside (and, while I can't judge Garcia's intent, I think it most certainly reads like he went after Kimes because her gender made her an easy target), I just don't think it can be said enough what a dumb critique the "you don't know what it's like/you never played the game" line of argument is. It's dumb every single time it's made, in every single context. It's dumb when Lou Merloni big-times WEEI callers. It's dumb when Jeff Van Gundy defends every single coaching decision ever made. It's dumb when Eminem goes after rap critics because they've never had a platinum album. It was dumb when the democratic republicans called Alexander Hamilton the bastard, orphan, son of a whore and a Scotsman.

Often, like Kimes', the initial take is a bad one. Fine, that should make it even easier to engage with the substance of the argument. Of course, there are things that outsiders can't understand about what it's like to play the game at that level. It's also true that Tim Hasselbeck doesn't know what it's like to be a good NFL quarterback, but no one shushes him when he criticizes Tom Brady.
 

johnmd20

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Man, you're really projecting here. You just picked a fight because you felt Soxy was being unfair to poor Jeff Garcia, and then you were extremely eager to turn around and start coming at me, but I'm the one who's running around NUKINGGGG!1! people? OK then.
When did I say Garcia was being treated unfairly?

You're just making things up.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Dec 22, 2002
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This is so weak. If you think there was no misogyny at all behind Garcia's reaction, you're absolutely kidding yourself. You're awfully eager to dismiss the possibility, and I don't know you well enough to understand why, but it's a bad look.

As for the Garcia interview, what are we doing here? Gatekeeping mind losing? Soxy was just using the language from the tweet, which is obviously hyperbole. Did Jeff Garcia literally go insane? No. Did he completely lose his cool, throw a little tantrum, and storm off? Absolutely. Works for me. I can't believe anyone thinks that was worth parsing and arguing about.
And you are so quick to cry out misogyny when any guy criticizes a woman. There was no misogyny. HIs comments would have made just as much sense if he said it to a man.

Are we not allowed to criticize women who talk about sports without being misogynist? God forbid a woman had a shit take and a jock called her out on it. Yeah, he must sexist and not a dumb pro jock.

Everyone is so eager to cry out misogyny nowadays it lowers the value. There is no proof of misogyny. You acting like there is proof is you kidding yourself.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Dec 22, 2002
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Man, you're really projecting here. You just picked a fight because you felt Soxy was being unfair to poor Jeff Garcia, and then you were extremely eager to turn around and start coming at me, but I'm the one who's running around NUKINGGGG!1! people? OK then.
You are really projecting Garcia's comments.

What happens if you just take Garcia's comments at face value? All the misogyny goes away. Odd how that works.

Does Garcia have a history of being overly sensitive? Check. Does he have a history of being misogynistic? Not that I'm aware of. If he does, I'd like to be filled in.
 

cromulence

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It's so strange to me that you two are so worked up about this. If this is the hill you want to die on, fine. You're making yourselves look like total fools, so I'll just let you.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Dec 22, 2002
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It's so strange to me that you two are so worked up about this. If this is the hill you want to die on, fine. You're making yourselves look like total fools, so I'll just let you.
I'm not worked up over it. That's you projecting some more. I simply think his comments aren't misogynistic and you decided to get all angry and condescending with me over my opinion. How holier than thou of you.

To borrow a line from Anakin, TO us, it is you who is all worked up about this.
 

ManicCompression

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Are we not allowed to criticize women who talk about sports without being misogynist? God forbid a woman had a shit take and a jock called her out on it. Yeah, he must sexist and not a dumb pro jock.

Everyone is so eager to cry out misogyny nowadays it lowers the value. There is no proof of misogyny. You acting like there is proof is you kidding yourself.
Yes, it lowers the agency of women to reduce common criticisms of their work to misogyny. We're on a board - right now, this forum - that has hundreds of thousands of posts criticizing the stupid things reporters/columnists say, 95% of them male. This goes with the job, just as part of the job of being an athlete/coach is getting criticized by reporters. Some of the criticism is unwarranted - i.e. any time a reporter gets the "you didn't play" card pulled on them - but you're not going to stop athletes, or reporters for that matter, from being stupid.
 

johnmd20

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It's so strange to me that you two are so worked up about this. If this is the hill you want to die on, fine. You're making yourselves look like total fools, so I'll just let you.
This is hilarious and sad. You can't attribute things to me that I haven't said or even speculated on. I literally said Fuck Garcia in my first post. My issue was with the wording of the tweet, which was dumb and hyperbolic. Whatever, I don't need to teach you a reading comprehension class. Keep on doing you, I'm sure it makes you feel better than.

Your autobiography should be titled, "The Throne of Judgement, It is Where I Sit, Looking Down."
 

cromulence

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This is hilarious and sad. You can't attribute things to me that I haven't said or even speculated on. I literally said Fuck Garcia in my first post. My issue was with the wording of the tweet, which was dumb and hyperbolic. Whatever, I don't need to teach you a reading comprehension class. Keep on doing you, I'm sure it makes you feel better than.

Your autobiography should be titled, "The Throne of Judgement, It is Where I Sit, Looking Down."
Dude, keep going. Whatever.
 

cromulence

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Sure, don't acknowledge that you're putting words into my mouth and then using that fabrication you invented to make judgements about me.

When called on this, you insult.
If this wasn't already clear, I'm done arguing with you. I truly don't give a shit about anything you're saying anymore.
 

johnmd20

mad dog
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If this wasn't already clear, I'm done arguing with you. I truly don't give a shit about anything you're saying anymore.
Then why do you keep responding?

You're arguing with a made up conversation, anyway. It's easy to win those. So gold medal to you.
 

cromulence

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Then why do you keep responding?

You're arguing with a made up conversation, anyway. It's easy to win those. So gold medal to you.
Because you keep trying to instigate me, I keep seeing the notification that you replied to me in this thread again, and I keep trying to send you the message that I'm over it and have zero desire to argue with you. If it makes you happy, fine, I officially declare that I won't post in this thread again today and you may have the last word. It clearly means a lot to you.
 

mauf

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Then why do you keep responding?

You're arguing with a made up conversation, anyway. It's easy to win those. So gold medal to you.
Because you keep trying to instigate me, I keep seeing the notification that you replied to me in this thread again, and I keep trying to send you the message that I'm over it and have zero desire to argue with you. If it makes you happy, fine, I officially declare that I won't post in this thread again today and you may have the last word. It clearly means a lot to you.
This needs to be dropped or taken to PMs. Thanks.
 

johnmd20

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Because you keep trying to instigate me, I keep seeing the notification that you replied to me in this thread again, and I keep trying to send you the message that I'm over it and have zero desire to argue with you. If it makes you happy, fine, I officially declare that I won't post in this thread again today and you may have the last word. It clearly means a lot to you.
Awwww. You made a point to judge me one last time. You simply cannot help yourself.
 

Jason Bae

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Any mention of ESPN's Top 100 MLB players of all-time? It's a pretty questionable list.

100. Barry Larkin
99. Phil Niekro
98. Jim Thome
97. Adrian Beltre
96. Charlie Gehringer
95. Duke Snider
94. Bryce Harper
93. John Smoltz
92. Roy Halladay
91. Ryne Sandberg
90. Ivan Rodriguez
89. Shoeless Joe Jackson
88. Willie Stargell
87. Carlton Fisk
86. Roberto Alomar
85. Jim Palmer
84. Paul Molitor
83. Roy Campanella
82. Eddie Collins
81. Mike Piazza
80. Robin Yount
79. Hank Greenberg
78. Chipper Jones
77. Vladimir Guerrero
76. Cap Anson
75. Rod Carew
74. Juan Marichal
73. Willie McCovey
72. Justin Verlander
71. Al Kaline
70. Harmon Killebrew
69. Ozzie Smith
68. Manny Ramirez
67. Brooks Robinson
66. Cal Ripken Jr.
65. Max Scherzer
64. Eddie Mathews
63. David Ortiz
62. Mel Ott
61. Carl Yastrzemski
60. Whitey Ford
59. Miguel Cabrera
58. Steve Carlton
57. Pete Alexander
56. Dave Winfield
55. Reggie Jackson
54. Lefty Grove
53. Oscar Charleston
52. Clayton Kershaw
51. Ernie Banks
50. Bob Feller
49. Frank Thomas
48. Nap Lajoie
47. Warren Spahn
46. Ichiro Suzuki
45. Wade Boggs
44. Tony Gwynn
43. George Brett
42. Nolan Ryan
41. Satchel Paige
40. Jimmie Foxx
39. Yogi Berra
38. Jackie Robinson
37. Joe Morgan
36. Tris Speaker
35. Josh Gibson
34. Pete Rose
33. Bob Gibson
32. Sandy Koufax
31. Mariano Rivera
30. Albert Pujols
29. Johnny Bench
28. Derek Jeter
27. Roberto Clemente
26. Alex Rodriguez
25. Christy Mathewson
24. Randy Johnson
23. Rickey Henderson
22. Tom Seaver
21. Cy Young
20. Rogers Hornsby
19. Frank Robinson
18. Mike Schmidt
17. Roger Clemens
16. Joe DiMaggio
15. Mike Trout
14. Greg Maddux
13. Ken Griffey Jr.
12. Honus Wagner
11. Pedro Martinez
10. Stan Musial
9. Walter Johnson
8. Barry Bonds
7. Mickey Mantle
6. Lou Gehrig
5. Ted Williams
4. Ty Cobb
3. Hank Aaron
2. Willie Mays
1. Babe Ruth
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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It wouldn't be ESPN if they weren't manufacturing some controversy and intrigue.

I also wouldn't put it past them to have included so many current or recently retired (within last 15-20 years) players just so their audience recognized enough names to care about anything other than the top 10.

I guess if anything, we have ESPN's choice for best Gen-X player. ;)
 

Kliq

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It's really hard to do a list like this, I think they actually did a pretty good job. The Top 10 is pretty exact. Yeah, they shoehorned some modern names in there probably a bit too high but most lists are going to have that. I do wonder if there is some projection involved; Trout at #15 seems really high (he's 47th all time in bWAR) to rank right now.

Some other things that stand out:

- Ken Griffey Jr. is too high at 15, which seems like a cultural bias. Griffey has 83.8 career bWAR, not sure I'd have him ranked ahead of DiMaggio, who has almost as high of a bWAR (79.2) and missed three years of his prime due to the war, not to mention the 9 World Series titles, if that matters. I certainly wouldn't have him ranked above Mike Schmidt (106 WAR), Rogers Hornsby (127 WAR) or Rickey Henderson (111 WAR).

- Jeter at 28 is a joke, but we all know why. Jeter over Joe Morgan? Really? Morgan has almost 30 bWAR on Jeter. You would rather have Jeter than Albert Pujols?

- Tris Speaker, as usual, is incredibly underrated at 36. He has 134 career bWAR, almost double what Jeter has, who ranks in front of him. He's 9th all time in bWAR.

- Additional old players disrespected by the list: Grover Cleveland Alexander and Lefty Grove (way better than pitchers ranked ahead of them, particularly Nolan Ryan) Mel Ott, and most magnificently, Eddie Collins, who is probably the best 2B of all-time, accumulated 124 career WAR, and is somehow ranked 82. Vladimir Guerrero, (59 bWAR) is somehow ranked ahead of him. C'mon guys.

- The inclusion of the Negro League players is strange. Gibson at 35 and Oscar Charleston at 53 just feels kind of disrespectful. I think if you want to include the Negro League guys, you have to do it right and bump those guys up imo. If you believe the Negro League statistics that Baseball-Reference has now, Charleston was basically as productive as Willie Mays throughout his career.
 

edoug

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Rickey is too low. I'd have him at least at #14. But he may belong in the top 10. I apologize to Yankees fans but, even if he was the best, Mariano is way too high. Shoeless Joe at #89 is just so wrong. He's easily top 20.
 

Jason Bae

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It's really hard to do a list like this, I think they actually did a pretty good job. The Top 10 is pretty exact. Yeah, they shoehorned some modern names in there probably a bit too high but most lists are going to have that. I do wonder if there is some projection involved; Trout at #15 seems really high (he's 47th all time in bWAR) to rank right now.

Some other things that stand out:

- Ken Griffey Jr. is too high at 15, which seems like a cultural bias. Griffey has 83.8 career bWAR, not sure I'd have him ranked ahead of DiMaggio, who has almost as high of a bWAR (79.2) and missed three years of his prime due to the war, not to mention the 9 World Series titles, if that matters. I certainly wouldn't have him ranked above Mike Schmidt (106 WAR), Rogers Hornsby (127 WAR) or Rickey Henderson (111 WAR).

- Jeter at 28 is a joke, but we all know why. Jeter over Joe Morgan? Really? Morgan has almost 30 bWAR on Jeter. You would rather have Jeter than Albert Pujols?

- Tris Speaker, as usual, is incredibly underrated at 36. He has 134 career bWAR, almost double what Jeter has, who ranks in front of him. He's 9th all time in bWAR.

- Additional old players disrespected by the list: Grover Cleveland Alexander and Lefty Grove (way better than pitchers ranked ahead of them, particularly Nolan Ryan) Mel Ott, and most magnificently, Eddie Collins, who is probably the best 2B of all-time, accumulated 124 career WAR, and is somehow ranked 82. Vladimir Guerrero, (59 bWAR) is somehow ranked ahead of him. C'mon guys.

- The inclusion of the Negro League players is strange. Gibson at 35 and Oscar Charleston at 53 just feels kind of disrespectful. I think if you want to include the Negro League guys, you have to do it right and bump those guys up imo. If you believe the Negro League statistics that Baseball-Reference has now, Charleston was basically as productive as Willie Mays throughout his career.
The other baffling thing about Jeter is that you have Ripken (who had 24.6 more WAR and destroys Jeter in WAR7 and JAWS) at 66th. Larkin also comes in at 100th and Jeter has less than one full win over Larkin despite having 3545 more plate appearances.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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That is a janky-ass list.
The other baffling thing about Jeter is that you have Ripken (who had 24.6 more WAR and destroys Jeter in WAR7 and JAWS) at 66th. Larkin also comes in at 100th and Jeter has less than one full win over Larkin despite having 3545 more plate appearances.
I thought that I read something that they took into account the number of RINGZ Jeter has, which is pretty dumb. I think that Gibson, Bench, Henderson, Randy Johnson and Bonds are all way too low. And I think that Pedro might be a little too high, if I'm looking at this list objectively. Hell, Pedro would be number one on my list, but 13 slots over Johnson is a bit much--especially if you account for longevity.
 

SemperFidelisSox

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I saw a commercial for some of the 30 for 30 and documentary series ESPN is putting out in 2022. One of them is a SIX part documentary on Derek Jeter. Directed by Spike Lee.
 

Granite Sox

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Mad Dog is polarizing. I happen to like him for what he is. This should be pretty entertaining (at least for a little while). Will be interesting to see how they translate to younger viewers (< 40YO haha).

It will be necessary to adjust the volume a little as they're both screamers. /understatement
 

HowBoutDemSox

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Interesting how many of the “Top Headlines” on the ESPN main page right now are about issues beyond just on field activities, but the intersection of sports and current events/social issues:

49682
 

Kliq

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Remember when ESPN was afraid of all the MAGA people and decided to have strict edicts on only talking about sports and no politics?
 

kenneycb

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Remember when ESPN was afraid of all the MAGA people and decided to have strict edicts on only talking about sports and no politics?
It was also under an old regime that toppled due to a cocaine extortion attempt. That last part has nothing to do with anything outside of making me mildly chuckle when I think about it.