End of Game (hoop) fiasco: Rule questions

Bleedred

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 21, 2001
9,963
Boston, MA
My 6th grade travel team just lost 66-63 and I have a few questions about what just happened.  
 
1st Scenario:   Game tied at 63 with 5 seconds left.  Opponent calls timeout and takes ball out of bounds under their own basket.   They try a long pass to a big at half court and connect, he dribbles a few times and cannot get by our defender, so he passes inside to another of their bigs.  We look up and the timer hasn't started the clock - i.e. the clock still reads 5 seconds left.   Half the gym (our side) is yelling that the clock hasn't started.  Meanwhile their 2nd big hits over our guy to give them a 2 point lead 65-63.  Ball falls through the hoop and the clock starts and rolls down to 1 second.  Refs are ignoring us and we have to call a timeout to get their attention.  The home town timer, to his credit, admits he forgot to start the clock. 
 
It's quite possible that the shot never got up before 5 seconds, but impossible to know. 
 
1.  What should the Refs have done?.   The refs, for some inexplicable reason, put 2 more seconds on the clock and give us the ball with 3 seconds left under our basket.   We never argued (but should we have?) that the play should have been re-run from under their basket with 5 seconds left.  Is there any logical justification for them to have given us back 2 more seconds to take the ball out under our basket?  i.e.  either they scored before the 5 seconds ran off or they didn't.  They certainly didn't score in 2 seconds!!
 
2nd Scenario:  in order to get the officials to discuss the clock discrepancy, we had to call timeout.  It was our 6th timeout (5 allowed).  Refs call a technical and give the other team 2 shots and the ball.  They hit one.  We argue unsuccessfully that the clock discussion should have been an official timeout to figure what the hell happened with the clock, rather than charge us a TO.  Otherwise, the only way we can remedy a clock malfunction, that was home town cooking, is to burn a TO and be penalized.  They didn't agree.   Who's right?
 
Rule Interpretation Q:  3 seconds left now and other team takes the ball out at half court after making 1 of 2 FTs.  They pass the ball into a big man who jumps from the forecourt, catches the ball in midair, and lands in the backcourt.   Isn't that a backcourt violation?   i.e.  That big man is established in the forecourt and until he lands, he's in the forecourt.   So when he catches the ball in mid-air, he's in the forecourt and when he lands he's in the backcourt.  Thus, a backcourt violation.   The Ref said possession is not established until he actually lands, therefore, his possession began in the backcourt.  I had not heard this before.  He might be right, but I'm not so sure.   Anyone?
 
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Mar 26, 2005
30,482
I looked up the backcourt violation question because I was curious.  This website -  http://www.athletic-officials.com/basketball/advanced-officiating/rule-9-9-backcourt-violation/ - looks official and states:  "The specific exceptions are described in Article 3 of Rule 9.9 and states during a JUMP BALL, THROW-IN, or WHILE ON DEFENSE, a player may legally jump from his/her frontcourt, secure control of the ball with both feet off the the floor, and then return to the floor with one or both feet in the back court."
 
I believe this rule has been in flux so perhaps this is not the latest but I'm offering it up anyways.
 

gopats84

New Member
Jul 20, 2005
77
Maine
Bleedred your interpretation of the backcourt rule is correct and it should have been a violation because the player caught the ball midair after he was in the frontcourt. Catching the ball midair is the key is this scenario. The player's last legal status was in the frontcourt and upon catching the ball, the ball assumes frontcourt status as well while also establishing team control on the possession. The team was the last to touch the ball in the frontcourt and the first to touch it in the backcourt thereby satisfying all the criteria of a backcourt violation. Page 14 of this newsletter, http://www.iaabo.org/Sportorials/January_February_2013_Sportorial.pdf, is one of the best resources I've found for understanding the backcourt rule. For reference, the throw-in exception cited by Wade Boggs Chicken Dinner still applies under IABBO rules but not in this case because the player did not catch the ball with two feet on the ground. Had that been the case, the ball never would have assumed frontcourt status so therefore no backcourt.
 
Regarding the timing issues, let me preface this by saying a situation that you described in one of the biggest potential nightmares for an official. There is virtually no chance you're going to be able to correct the situation and make everyone 100 percent whole. If there were say 10 seconds left on the clock and the players are dribbling the ball up court when you realize the clock isn't running, you would blow your whistle and have the team inbound the ball again on the baseline. Five seconds and a baseball pass to midcourt there's no way you can stop the play without adversely effecting the offensive team. In that instance the officials need to be aware of the clock and the trail official should have been keeping a mental count in case a situation like this happens. Honestly as you describe the play there's virtually no chance that entire sequence unfolded in five seconds, the "safest" thing to do is to say the clock didn't start when it was supposed to, end the quarter and send the game to overtime.
 
Regardless the officials needed to get together, come to the table and talk to time keeper. Figure out exactly when the clock started and try to determine what the correct time is. They should have made their decision and explain it individually to each coach. If you had issues you should have been given the chance to raise them at this point. You shouldn't have been forced to call an excess timeout to get the officials to talk about the clock issue. That's poor officiating on their part, but with that said you requested the timeout that you didn't have. The correct call is a technical foul...I know it sucks they picked that time to make a correct call.
 
When did they make the decision to count the hoop and put two more seconds on the clock. Was it before or after you called the TO and were given the technical?
 
Were these officials "guys off the street" so to speak? I hope they weren't IABBO officials....
 

Heinie Wagner

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SoSH Member
Nov 14, 2001
731
Simsbury, CT
Crazy situation, on the bright side 66-63 is one heck of a 6th grade game.
 
I agree with gopats, most reasonable thing would have been for the refs to huddle with the scorekeeper, it sounds almost certain that more than 5 seconds elapsed and it should have done into OT.  Good refs get together and make the decision, then let the coaches know what they decided and why.  In my experience with youth basketball, that's about 10-20% of them, and that's with almost always having IABBO guys. 
 

Bleedred

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Feb 21, 2001
9,963
Boston, MA
gopats84 said:
Bleedred your interpretation of the backcourt rule is correct and it should have been a violation because the player caught the ball midair after he was in the frontcourt. Catching the ball midair is the key is this scenario. The player's last legal status was in the frontcourt and upon catching the ball, the ball assumes frontcourt status as well while also establishing team control on the possession. The team was the last to touch the ball in the frontcourt and the first to touch it in the backcourt thereby satisfying all the criteria of a backcourt violation. Page 14 of this newsletter, http://www.iaabo.org/Sportorials/January_February_2013_Sportorial.pdf, is one of the best resources I've found for understanding the backcourt rule. For reference, the throw-in exception cited by Wade Boggs Chicken Dinner still applies under IABBO rules but not in this case because the player did not catch the ball with two feet on the ground. Had that been the case, the ball never would have assumed frontcourt status so therefore no backcourt.
 
Regarding the timing issues, let me preface this by saying a situation that you described in one of the biggest potential nightmares for an official. There is virtually no chance you're going to be able to correct the situation and make everyone 100 percent whole. If there were say 10 seconds left on the clock and the players are dribbling the ball up court when you realize the clock isn't running, you would blow your whistle and have the team inbound the ball again on the baseline. Five seconds and a baseball pass to midcourt there's no way you can stop the play without adversely effecting the offensive team. In that instance the officials need to be aware of the clock and the trail official should have been keeping a mental count in case a situation like this happens. Honestly as you describe the play there's virtually no chance that entire sequence unfolded in five seconds, the "safest" thing to do is to say the clock didn't start when it was supposed to, end the quarter and send the game to overtime.
 
Regardless the officials needed to get together, come to the table and talk to time keeper. Figure out exactly when the clock started and try to determine what the correct time is. They should have made their decision and explain it individually to each coach. If you had issues you should have been given the chance to raise them at this point. You shouldn't have been forced to call an excess timeout to get the officials to talk about the clock issue. That's poor officiating on their part, but with that said you requested the timeout that you didn't have. The correct call is a technical foul...I know it sucks they picked that time to make a correct call.
 
When did they make the decision to count the hoop and put two more seconds on the clock. Was it before or after you called the TO and were given the technical?
 
Were these officials "guys off the street" so to speak? I hope they weren't IABBO officials....
Thanks for the thoughtful response.  They made the decision to count the hoop and put two more seconds on the clock after we called the TO but before they gave us the technical.   These guys were IAABO officials.   The thing that burns me is not so much that the situation happened and that we ended up on the short end of the stick, but rather, these officials didn't choose to make what in my view was the equitable call, which you and HW below both agree was to end the quarter at 63-63 and go to OT.  That said, I do think that would have been a complete non-starter for the other coach, who would have gone ballistic.   It was just a really unfortunate way to end a great game. 
 
Edit:  I understand what you're saying that the correct call was to assess the technical, because we didn't have the timeout.  But what would you have had us do otherwise?  The refs would not listen to us when we were protesting about the clock not starting.  They intentionally ignored our efforts to have a discussion.  Rather than huddling and calling an official timeout, they were counting off 5 seconds for the inbound after the basket and would not engage us.   We had 2 choices.  Let the game clock run down on the inbound pass and argue then.  Or call the timeout.  
 

Heinie Wagner

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Nov 14, 2001
731
Simsbury, CT
Maybe a cynical viewpoint, but it sounds to me like they just wanted the game to end.  They probably had a Superbowl party to get too.
 
Very few officials give their best efforts in the youth games.  I see guys practically sleepwalk through a travel game, especially the younger kids and girls games, and then I see the same guy doing a varsity game and he's a different guy, sprinting up the court, proper mechanics etc.  Most officials (but not all of them) seem to see the travel games as a few easy bucks and no consequences if they give it a half hearted effort.

As I tell my players all the time, focus on the things you can control and don't get distracted by the things you cannot.  
 

teddykgb

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Jul 16, 2005
11,016
Chelmsford, MA
I don't think you can bemoan the timeout technical. It surely feels like piling on, but it's the one call they definitely got right. You could have thrown a fit after time expired, or your team could have inbounded the ball. Maybe even not inbounded the ball, and you could have thrown your fit while the ref made the 5 second call. None of these are great options, but aside from it of course being inherently unfair, you didn't have the time out and you or your kids called a timeout you didn't have. This is certainly an understandable action in the panic/desperation of the situation you found yourself in, and I'd likely have done the same thing, but it wouldn't be any more right.

The time issue is just a nightmare. It's hard to determine what is the right thing to do, but putting two seconds on the clock probably speaks to the fact that they believe the shot came well within the time that was available. A less charitable view says that it was a CYA thing, and in the case of official error, like happened here, I like the idea of sending the game to OT and giving the teams more time to sort it out. It would take a very clear thinking referee to figure this out while surely everyone is going nuts, so I'm not surprised it went differently.

More importantly, as a coach, you need to be refocusing your kids on how to deal with these situations. Whether the clock started or not, your team needs to be defending to the final buzzer. It's likely that they did, and the other team made a shot, but the lessons here are that referees/timekeeper/scorekeepers are flawed and do sometimes make mistakes. They hurt and they make you angry, but there are too many spoiled brat athletes already who can't handle a little adversity. As someone who has both coached and refereed, it is important for the kids to realize that they can't be consumed by projecting their own failures onto the referees, even if they made mistakes. It is easy for all the kids to get caught up in blaming refs all the time. In this case, they'd be more right than wrong, but in reality they're going to face this situation again, so learning to play the buzzer instead of the clock and to have their cool when bad shit happens is just as important a lesson as anything else.
 

Heinie Wagner

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Nov 14, 2001
731
Simsbury, CT
teddykgb said:
More importantly, as a coach, you need to be refocusing your kids on how to deal with these situations. Whether the clock started or not, your team needs to be defending to the final buzzer. It's likely that they did, and the other team made a shot, but the lessons here are that referees/timekeeper/scorekeepers are flawed and do sometimes make mistakes. They hurt and they make you angry, but there are too many spoiled brat athletes already who can't handle a little adversity. As someone who has both coached and refereed, it is important for the kids to realize that they can't be consumed by projecting their own failures onto the referees, even if they made mistakes. It is easy for all the kids to get caught up in blaming refs all the time. In this case, they'd be more right than wrong, but in reality they're going to face this situation again, so learning to play the buzzer instead of the clock and to have their cool when bad shit happens is just as important a lesson as anything else.
 
Very well put.  The life lessons are far more important than the scores.
 

gopats84

New Member
Jul 20, 2005
77
Maine
Bleedred said:
Thanks for the thoughtful response.  They made the decision to count the hoop and put two more seconds on the clock after we called the TO but before they gave us the technical.   These guys were IAABO officials.   The thing that burns me is not so much that the situation happened and that we ended up on the short end of the stick, but rather, these officials didn't choose to make what in my view was the equitable call, which you and HW below both agree was to end the quarter at 63-63 and go to OT.  That said, I do think that would have been a complete non-starter for the other coach, who would have gone ballistic.   It was just a really unfortunate way to end a great game. 
 
Edit:  I understand what you're saying that the correct call was to assess the technical, because we didn't have the timeout.  But what would you have had us do otherwise?  The refs would not listen to us when we were protesting about the clock not starting.  They intentionally ignored our efforts to have a discussion.  Rather than huddling and calling an official timeout, they were counting off 5 seconds for the inbound after the basket and would not engage us.   We had 2 choices.  Let the game clock run down on the inbound pass and argue then.  Or call the timeout.  
Honestly, I don't know what else you can do in that situation other than have to call a timeout that you don't have. You're right if you do nothing, the clock expires and the game ends. At that point you'd be left to pleading your case to the officials after the fact and I'm sure they do nothing. They probably leave the court without acknowledging you. As much counting as an official does over the course of a game when it comes to 5-second and 10-second calls, you develop a pretty good internal clock. After the play developed as it did and the opposing team scored, I'd get a pretty good sense something wasn't right if I get to a two or three count on the ensuing inbound without the buzzer sounding, if not before.
 
To make the whole situation even more frustrating for you, in spite of the clock fiasco and the technical, you should have had an inbound at halfcourt down three if they correctly called the backcourt violation. 
 
As an aside, I can't help but wonder what they would have done had you called the timeout to address the clock issue, and they ruled the quarter should have expired before the basket was scored. Would they have tried (incorrectly) to assess the technical for the excess timeout.
 

knuck

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Apr 15, 2010
148
Austin, TX
gopats84 said:
Bleedred your interpretation of the backcourt rule is correct and it should have been a violation because the player caught the ball midair after he was in the frontcourt. Catching the ball midair is the key is this scenario. The player's last legal status was in the frontcourt and upon catching the ball, the ball assumes frontcourt status as well while also establishing team control on the possession. The team was the last to touch the ball in the frontcourt and the first to touch it in the backcourt thereby satisfying all the criteria of a backcourt violation. Page 14 of this newsletter, http://www.iaabo.org/Sportorials/January_February_2013_Sportorial.pdf, is one of the best resources I've found for understanding the backcourt rule. For reference, the throw-in exception cited by Wade Boggs Chicken Dinner still applies under IABBO rules but not in this case because the player did not catch the ball with two feet on the ground. Had that been the case, the ball never would have assumed frontcourt status so therefore no backcourt.
 
I have read both WBCD and your links, yet I am still confused as to why it would be considered a backcourt violation. It seems like WBCD exception was met, but you site the bolded as to why it doesn't qualify.
 

Heinie Wagner

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Nov 14, 2001
731
Simsbury, CT
I've had it explained to my by referees that the exception is covers this
 
On an out of bounds play:
"They pass the ball into a big man who jumps from the forecourt, catches the ball in midair, and lands in the backcourt."
 
In other words, it was not a back court violation.  I loaned my rulebook and casebook to another coach or I'd try to look it up.
 
If the ball were tipped by a defender first, then the exception is no longer in place (i.e. it's no longer an in-bound pass).
 
The funny thing about youth basketball is that almost no one has a rule book and the rules in the book don't matter as much as the officials command of the rules.  
If you coach Little League, where every manager has a rule book, this is a touch concept to grasp.
 
A couple games ago, I argued for a violation on some excessive elbow swinging with no contact and one of the refs looked at me like I had two heads, he had no idea there was a rule where he could call a violation (not a foul) on excessive elbow swinging with no contact.  "Your guys are trying to take the ball from him, what's he supposed to do".  Yikes!
 

knuck

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Apr 15, 2010
148
Austin, TX
Heinie Wagner said:
On an out of bounds play:
"They pass the ball into a big man who jumps from the forecourt, catches the ball in midair, and lands in the backcourt."
 
In other words, it was not a back court violation.  I loaned my rulebook and casebook to another coach or I'd try to look it up.
 
If the ball were tipped by a defender first, then the exception is no longer in place (i.e. it's no longer an in-bound pass).
 
 
Thanks. That is my understanding as well.
 

Bigpupp

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Jun 8, 2008
2,390
New Mexico
I've never looked in the rulebook myself, but I questioned the exact same backcourt violation a few years ago and was told that all three points (two feet and the ball) must be established on the offensive side of the court before a violation can occur. On an inbound, the ball has not been established on the offensive side of the court until it has been touched, so that particular play cannot be considered a backcourt violation.