Eastern Conference Finals

reggiecleveland

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It still boggles my mind why Brad waited until the final games of the Wizards series to play him when it was such a great matchup for his versatility. Sadly, I don't think Brad has any buttons to push when he's up against such mismatches at virtually every key position. The players play.
My take was he was still learning, and figuring things out. He is a very young guy, and in some of his early shifts he seemed to get yanked for mistakes. At any rate the poor play of others, or his increased understanding, he jumped up the depth chart. That is my speculation. I admit it is partly my long term rosy specs hoping JB is on his way to being Pippen by showing linear improvements.
 

CreightonGubanich

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One thing's clear; they can't keep switching every LeBron pick and roll. At this rate, they'll have to go under and dare LeBron to shoot. Brown and Crowder are the only ones with a prayer of defending him; you can't keep ending up with possessions where Olynyk or Horford are switched onto LeBron.

On the other end of the floor, Cleveland's going to keep trapping IT on every screen. The solution to that is easy in theory; Thomas made the right play virtually every time, which puts the ball in Horford's hands with a 4-on-3 situation. This is what Golden State does so well through Draymond Green; the difference is, the Warriors guys typically knock down open shots. If Crowder, Bradley, Olynyk et al can't starting hitting those open threes resulting from Thomas' double team, I'd like to see IT in more straight isolations. He can attack Irving one-on-one.
 

BigSoxFan

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One thing's clear; they can't keep switching every LeBron pick and roll. At this rate, they'll have to go under and dare LeBron to shoot. Brown and Crowder are the only ones with a prayer of defending him; you can't keep ending up with possessions where Olynyk or Horford are switched onto LeBron.

On the other end of the floor, Cleveland's going to keep trapping IT on every screen. The solution to that is easy in theory; Thomas made the right play virtually every time, which puts the ball in Horford's hands with a 4-on-3 situation. This is what Golden State does so well through Draymond Green; the difference is, the Warriors guys typically knock down open shots. If Crowder, Bradley, Olynyk et al can't starting hitting those open threes resulting from Thomas' double team, I'd like to see IT in more straight isolations. He can attack Irving one-on-one.
Honestly, I'm fine with letting LeBron shoot. He's certainly gotten better from the perimeter but he's absolute death to this defense when he drives. Might as well make him earn it with a bunch of mid and long range shots. Certainly better than giving up a million uncontested shots to guys who will absolutely knock them down.
 

HomeRunBaker

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One thing's clear; they can't keep switching every LeBron pick and roll. At this rate, they'll have to go under and dare LeBron to shoot. Brown and Crowder are the only ones with a prayer of defending him; you can't keep ending up with possessions where Olynyk or Horford are switched onto LeBron.
Like all elite iso players, and LeBron is at the top of the elite, this is easier said than done. It isn't like we can simply decide not to switch or LeBron will have an angle and he'll then take advantage of that. We can't switch back as he's aware enough to gain better positioning or find an open 3-point shooter.

We have no answers for LeBron and Cleveland on that end of the floor. It kinda puts a wrench in the old management adage of "Hope is not a plan of action" because in the case of LeBron and the Cavs offense it really is......you have to pick your poison, let LeBron beat you or allow open three's by Love, Korver, Frye, JR, and Kyrie. Hope is about all we can do. I expect 3 more blowouts.
 

CreightonGubanich

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Like all elite iso players, and LeBron is at the top of the elite, this is easier said than done. It isn't like we can simply decide not to switch or LeBron will have an angle and he'll then take advantage of that. We can't switch back as he's aware enough to gain better positioning or find an open 3-point shooter.

We have no answers for LeBron and Cleveland on that end of the floor. It kinda puts a wrench in the old management adage of "Hope is not a plan of action" because in the case of LeBron and the Cavs offense it really is......you have to pick your poison, let LeBron beat you or allow open three's by Love, Korver, Frye, JR, and Kyrie. Hope is about all we can do. I expect 3 more blowouts.
Sure, there will be times where they have no choice but to switch. But last night's switching of the pick and roll was by design, to prevent open looks for the screener and surrounding shooters. You could see it over and over again. They've got to do a better job fighting around, or even ducking under those screens rather than defaulting to the switch.
 

Light-Tower-Power

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I don't care what they do on LeBron, if they lose the rebound battle as badly as they did in the first half yesterday, they're getting blown out 3 more times. I just don't see them containing Thompson. He eats Horford alive and Johnson is too broken down to battle with him. Kelly isn't strong enough and Zeller is..well...kind of useless. There is nobody who can bang with him inside and he's going to wreak havoc on the offensive glass. Thankfully next year they'll have Zizic and Yabusele's massive ass off the bench to help on the glass.
 

JCizzle

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Minus IT, what do we do? Marcus is the obvious candidate to start: Marcus, Avery, Gerald, Jae, Horford.

Before long, I'd like to see Rozier, Avery, Jaylen, Jae and Horford. I think that combination gives us the best offensive and defensive possibilities.
 

BigSoxFan

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Minus IT, what do we do? Marcus is the obvious candidate to start: Marcus, Avery, Gerald, Jae, Horford.

Before long, I'd like to see Rozier, Avery, Jaylen, Jae and Horford. I think that combination gives us the best offensive and defensive possibilities.
Jaylen should play the next 2 games until he fouls out. Gerald Green should not be stealing key development minutes from him.
 

JCizzle

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Jaylen should play the next 2 games until he fouls out. Gerald Green should not be stealing key development minutes from him.
I agree. But I don't think there's a chance that he gets the nod over Gerald.
 

ElcaballitoMVP

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I'd go with Smart, Bradley, Brown, Crowder and Horford. Rozier, Kelly and Gerald off the bench.

No more Horford or another slow big on Bron. Make him shoot jumpers.
 

BigChara33

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No more soft fouls. Hard fouls on all their star players. Hack as hard as you can. They completely disrespected the Celtics. No more cushy fouls. Lebron wants to run over 4 players to get to the rim without dribbling nor ever having a chance of getting an offensive foul... Smash him hard. He's a whiny *****. He can't take hard fouls.

Playing an entire 3rd quarter up by 40+ points and then showboating the entire time? Deserves to get Zaza'd.
 

sezwho

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No more soft fouls. Hard fouls on all their star players. Hack as hard as you can. They completely disrespected the Celtics. No more cushy fouls. Lebron wants to run over 4 players to get to the rim without dribbling nor ever having a chance of getting an offensive foul... Smash him hard. He's a whiny *****. He can't take hard fouls.

Playing an entire 3rd quarter up by 40+ points and then showboating the entire time? Deserves to get Zaza'd.
While I don't want to jump on Chara's plan to goon up the NBA, if you are going to mean-mug the home team bench while blowing them out, then a little chin music is on the way. As someone who still limps from a coward piece of shit who wouldn't just lose like a man but had to 'tough guy' me and put a foot under my ankle in a pickup game, I think the random 'get a body bag' nonsense isn't helpful. That said, if you want to give up the high road and call out the whole team Lebron, then I'm pretty sure Crowder/Smart/Evil Kelly have the response...
 

Eddie Jurak

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I'd give Brown the start in games 3 and 4.

There's no real way to defend LeBron, so I'd just use a rotating cast of characters. Put Brown on him solo and he'll foul out in 14 minutes.

With IT out, I'd thaw Jackson out of cold storage and give him some garbage time run.
 

BaseballJones

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Defensively you HAVE to go under screens and let, even invite, LeBron to shoot a lot from three. If he beats you from there, so be it.

Have the big (it's usually a big screening for LeBron) hedge just enough to get a little length into the shot if he takes the three, but have LeBron's defender go under. Do everything you can to not let him drive.

Offensively... No idea. Play young guys and try to run run run run run. Worth a shot.
 

BigSoxFan

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Yes, I am fine giving LeBron perimeter shots. He's been nailing them this series but it's still the Celtics' best chance of winning. You let him drive and he just breaks down your defense every time and finds Korver, Kyrie, and Love for wide open 3's. On offense, you have to find a way to attack Kyrie, Love, and Korver. They are shit individual defenders. Give LeBron the Sherman treatment.
 

lovegtm

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Is this the worst pair of conference finals in league history? Certainly has to be the most lopsided.
The regret of what could Spurs-Warriors could have been with a healthy Kawhi makes it even worse.
 

BigSoxFan

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The regret of what could Spurs-Warriors could have been with a healthy Kawhi makes it even worse.
Yup. I'd bet we would have a 2-2 series going back to GS if Kawhi hadn't been eliminated. GS likely wins the series but the Spurs would have made them work for it.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Yup. I'd bet we would have a 2-2 series going back to GS if Kawhi hadn't been eliminated. GS likely wins the series but the Spurs would have made them work for it.
I don't want to get into this debate because I agree that San Antonio would have been a bit more competitive with Kawhi but you do know he had an ankle injury before the Zaza incident, right? While I will grant you that the Spurs most likely win game one, I don't know if they win another one the rest of the way. Unless you are assuming that Leonard at 70% or whatever he was is still enough to put the Spurs on par with the Warriors.

In any event, I would love to see the C's keep this game close though without Thomas its a tall order. And I agree with the view that you let Jaylen Brown start this game. This is his team now and he needs to be given the keys.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Jaylen should play the next 2 games until he fouls out. Gerald Green should not be stealing key development minutes from him.
I was all for playing Jaylen more in the Wizards series due to matchups and his ability to get more done on the floor than Amir against their versatile forwards but throwing him out there to get his ass handed to him by LeBron isn't a real good way to develop a player. I expect Brad to bring him off the bench in spots minutes to give the team the best chance to succeed while also protecting Jaylen. I mean damn, Brad protected him in the Washington series when he didn't need protection and it could have cost us the series.....I can't imagine him now saying, "Ok kid, get out there on LeBron and learn how to play in this league."
 

BigSoxFan

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I don't want to get into this debate because I agree that San Antonio would have been a bit more competitive with Kawhi but you do know he had an ankle injury before the Zaza incident, right? While I will grant you that the Spurs most likely win game one, I don't know if they win another one the rest of the way. Unless you are assuming that Leonard at 70% or whatever he was is still enough to put the Spurs on par with the Warriors.

In any event, I would love to see the C's keep this game close though without Thomas its a tall order. And I agree with the view that you let Jaylen Brown start this game. This is his team now and he needs to be given the keys.
I think Game 1 is a Spurs win and that they win one of Game 3 or 4 with a hobbled Kawhi since Kawhi at 70% is still much better than the other options. I would also acknowledge that given the existing injury, he could have very easily tweaked it on a normal play unrelated to Zaza.

As for Jaylen, I don't care if LeBron makes him look foolish, I want him out there taking his lumps. He is a prime candidate to make a pretty big leap next season. I think Crowder-like production is well within reach next year if he gets the opportunity.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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As for Jaylen, I don't care if LeBron makes him look foolish, I want him out there taking his lumps. He is a prime candidate to make a pretty big leap next season. I think Crowder-like production is well within reach next year if he gets the opportunity.
Taking his lumps is one thing but sitting on the bench with foul trouble isn't going to help him too much.

It's gotta be Marcus, AB, GG, Crowder, and Horford and hope GG gets hot and can carry the offense and Marcus can hit some open shots.

And GG can learn to play some defense.

Not a lot of options for Brad. Can DA get Fultz signed before the game?
 

BigSoxFan

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Taking his lumps is one thing but sitting on the bench with foul trouble isn't going to help him too much.

It's gotta be Marcus, AB, GG, Crowder, and Horford and hope GG gets hot and can carry the offense and Marcus can hit some open shots.

And GG can learn to play some defense.

Not a lot of options for Brad. Can DA get Fultz signed before the game?
He gets 6 fouls. Unless he gets careless, he should be able to play at least 20-25 minutes even if LeBron gets him in foul trouble. Starting Amir just seems so pointless to me.
 

Wake's knuckle

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There almost has to be a connection with the MVP snub? Maybe he dialed it back for a game to make a point? If that's what he's doing, we might be in for s how in Game 4... although you'd have to think his teammates would be annoyed by that behavior (unless they were on-board beforehand).
 

southshoresoxfan

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There almost has to be a connection with the MVP snub? Maybe he dialed it back for a game to make a point? If that's what he's doing, we might be in for s how in Game 4... although you'd have to think his teammates would be annoyed by that behavior (unless they were on-board beforehand).
This would be extremely unlikely.
 

BaseballJones

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Irrepreducible result?
It's entirely possible that the team shooting numbers are reproducible (don't expect Smart to go 7-10 from three again).

But not LeBron's stat line (4-13 fg, 0-4 3pt, 3-6 ft, 11 pts, 6 reb, 6 ast, 6 to). That's not happening again. I fully expect him to be in Terminator mode in game 4. But maybe other guys will not shoot as well as they have so far for Cleveland.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Do the Celtics match up better with the Cavs w/o IT4? I'm not suggesting the Celtics are better without him, just that maybe they are better without him specifically when it comes to the Cavs. I know James won't have a game 3 every night but chances are Love and/or Kyrie will have an off night at some point. And doesn't Jerebko have to start game 4? He's not in the bench rotation anyway so it's not like it screws up anything. Amir Johnson is not the answer and Jaylen Brown has been in the bench rotation since the Wizards series. Even Gerald Green is a better choice than Amir.

Of course we can't really rely on Marcus Smart for offense every night and without IT4, I'm not sure where it comes from. Avery Bradley has been good for either 25 or 10. Horford seems to be good for a "quiet" 16 a night but hardly ever takes over a game with his scoring. They are basically going to need 2 of Olynyk, Jaylen, Gerald and Terry to step up to have any chance to compete. Terry has been invisible all series while the others have been inconsistent. I could see any of the 4 going off for 15-20 points on any given night but I could see their entire bench scoring less than 20 combined just as easily. That can't happen. The bench has to perform and those 4 are the biggest contributors. If someone like Todd Zeller wants to have the game of his life, he's welcome. Just don't see it happening.

Bench Scoring Celtics (minutes played) Cavs (minutes played)
Game 1 34 (85) 14 (72)
Game 2 45 (127) 40 (100)
Game 3 32 (71) 9 (44)

I think the Celtics may have a chance at game 5 with the "Not on our court" motivation. I also think they should use the hack-a-Tristan strategy with the fouls they have to burn. Don't be shy about using this strategy on LeBron either because sometimes his FT shooting is suspect.
 
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Koufax

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Yes on Yonas. Rozier shouldn't start because he's been making too many rookie mistakes and GG's defense is just too awful to put on the floor opposite the Cavs. Amir is hurt and ineffective. Were it not for Yonas's excellent night I'd be OK with Tyler Zeller, whose only fault is that he can't hit 3s and thus does not fit the Celtics style of play. Yonas hits threes.
 

Sam Ray Not

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I think the Celtics may have a chance at game 5 with the "Not on our court" motivation.
Screw that. Grab Game 4 tomorrow (just like you did in Chicago) and you can really give those fvckers something to think about in Game 5. Yeah, LeBron won't likely have another game like that, and Smart may not go 7-10 from 3 — but who knows, maybe now that the "12-0 v. 12-0" narrative is out the window, the refs will be less inclined to tilt the scales to the tune of a 36-12 Cavs advantage at the FT stripe.

Only one day off before Game 4. Is that enough time for LeBron to pay a visit to his pharmacists in South Beach?
 

JCizzle

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Yes on Yonas. Rozier shouldn't start because he's been making too many rookie mistakes and GG's defense is just too awful to put on the floor opposite the Cavs. Amir is hurt and ineffective. Were it not for Yonas's excellent night I'd be OK with Tyler Zeller, whose only fault is that he can't hit 3s and thus does not fit the Celtics style of play. Yonas hits threes.
Has he ever shown the swagger that he walked around with last night? I can't remember him ever getting in people's faces like he was doing throughout the game.
 

Cesar Crespo

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That 36-12 thing is misleading anyway. The Celtics play away from the rim so they are going to get fouled less and they were also playing without IT4, the one guy who can get to the line. Cleveland was 3rd in FTA against, Celtics were 25th.
 

PaulinMyrBch

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I don't see much chatter about the difference in the rest Cleveland had coming in. Wonder if anyone thinks that had anything to do with last night's game. We had a 2 day turnaround between game 7 and game 1, they had 10 days rest. Plus we played a tough 7 game series that taxed starters late into games. The difference in energy the first two games was obvious. Cleveland, last night, finally looked like a team that had the same energy/endurance level as the Celtics, with 3 games in 5 days. So I'm surprised no one twitter/radio (that I've heard) is mentioning that issue.

Clearly the Cavs looked great in games 1 and 2, but I thought their level of energy last night was a drop off from the first 2 games. How much of last night can we chalk up to physical?
 

Sam Ray Not

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That 36-12 thing is misleading anyway.
Hmm, I'm sure you're right. I actually didn't watch the first 3/4ths of the game, as I had totally given up on the series after the Game 2 debacle. Was the general consensus among Cs fans that the game was more or less fairly called?
 

Cesar Crespo

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Hmm, I'm sure you're right. I actually didn't watch the first 3/4ths of the game, as I had totally given up on the series after the Game 2 debacle. Was the general consensus among Cs fans that the game was more or less fairly called?
The general consensus among C's fans is that the officials are out to get the Celtics and the game is rigged against Boston regardless of who they play. It's not even a C's thing. It's a Boston thing.
 

Sam Ray Not

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Haha, I'm not sure if it's a "Boston thing" so much as a "being a sports fan" thing. (I was 100% sure the refs were in the tank for the Spurs in Game 3, for example). I guess I'm asking whether this felt like an egregiously awfully called game, or just a standard-issue "the refs hate us" game.
 

bankshot1

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The calls were typical home-court calls. The one thing that got me irked was Thompson who lives on the inside and plays a physical game had 1 personal foul. You don'r get a lot of O-boards without fouling. Whether they get called or not is another matter.
 

Koufax

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Yes, the game was fairly called. The best foul was when Yonas Yerebko pulled Kevin Love backwards onto the floor and then acted outraged that a foul had been called. He was yelling at Love like he had done something wrong (a little elbow to the ribs perhaps). Yonas was on fire.
 

snowmanny

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Well the first half of the Game 7 against Washington Basketball Team was incredibly poorly called all-around. Obviously the calls that outrage a fan the most are the ones against your team so that's what I saw, but I know there was junk both ways.

I think it's a Celtics fan thing. One of the early basketball fandom memories for fans around my age was a game so unfathomably egregiously refereed that Bob Ryan basically called the whole thing fixed. And of course Johnny Most. And of course the 80's Lakers got the calls...that's indisputable.
 

Cesar Crespo

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We've all been listening to Tommy so long too and we all know how impartial he is and how much he loves refs.
 

#classicsquander

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That 36-12 thing is misleading anyway. The Celtics play away from the rim so they are going to get fouled less and they were also playing without IT4, the one guy who can get to the line. Cleveland was 3rd in FTA against, Celtics were 25th.
I didn't feel like the game was terribly officiated, but both teams played away from the rim, the Cavs attempted 39 three pointers and the Celtics 40. The Celtics outscored the Cavs in the paint 36 to 24 and had more FGA in the paint, but the Cavs were only called for 11 personal fouls to the Celtics 23. And, to my recollection, the Celtics were in the penalty only 9 minutes into the fourth quarter. It's to be expected given that the Cavs were on their home court and have more stars, but still. It was certainly not called perfectly evenly and I can understand where the complaints come from.