Dolphins: Year Tua

Should Miami Trade for Deshaun Watson

  • Yes. Deshaun is a star. Take the known entity.

    Votes: 68 70.8%
  • No. Build around Tua and forge a stronger overall team.

    Votes: 28 29.2%

  • Total voters
    96
  • Poll closed .

sodenj5

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Lots of details in this report from Barry Jackson:

https://amp.miamiherald.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/barry-jackson/article256841207.html

Essentially saying that Flores was running the organization but wanted to actually run the organization and cut out Grier as the middle man.

Grier essentially signed and drafted every guy Flores wanted but it still wasn’t enough for the two of them to coexist.

Other things that we’ve heard the last day or so that he was generally difficult to work with and didn’t have a great relationship with many people in the building.

Some of this is certainly leaking in order to justify the firing, FWIW.
 

tims4wins

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Current betting odds on Miami’s next head coach.

Daboll probably continues to make the most sense. I do like the McDaniel is high on the list. This is is second interview with Miami, so clearly they liked some of what they heard last year when he interviewed for the OC job.

View: https://twitter.com/jaimeeisner/status/1481648463456600066?s=21
As high as a lot of folks are on McDaniel - and the more I see of him / read about him the more I like him - he seems destined to fail spectacularly in his first coaching gig just due to his entire style. I'm rooting for the guy and think he might have a really bright future. And I'm not sure how he can gain the necessary experience without actually being a HC. A dilemma for sure.
 

sodenj5

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As high as a lot of folks are on McDaniel - and the more I see of him / read about him the more I like him - he seems destined to fail spectacularly in his first coaching gig just due to his entire style. I'm rooting for the guy and think he might have a really bright future. And I'm not sure how he can gain the necessary experience without actually being a HC. A dilemma for sure.
I think that’s why if he becomes a head coach, getting a guy like Zimmer or Fangio to run the other side of the ball and be a guiding voice would be critical. I always go back to McVay and Wade Phillips being paired together and how that likely made McVay’s transition to head coach much smoother.

If McDaniel says essentially he will staff and run the offense and he wants to retain Boyer to run the defense, I would feel far more bearish on that setup and staff.

Your point is well taken though. One of the things I admired about Flores is he felt like a leader first and foremost. Being a head coach is far more than being the offensive playcaller without oversight. It felt like that was Gase’s primary motivation for being a coach.
 

AlNipper49

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Lots of details in this report from Barry Jackson:

https://amp.miamiherald.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/barry-jackson/article256841207.html

Essentially saying that Flores was running the organization but wanted to actually run the organization and cut out Grier as the middle man.

Grier essentially signed and drafted every guy Flores wanted but it still wasn’t enough for the two of them to coexist.

Other things that we’ve heard the last day or so that he was generally difficult to work with and didn’t have a great relationship with many people in the building.

Some of this is certainly leaking in order to justify the firing, FWIW.
This too, but if true he really sounds like kind of a jerk

https://news.google.com/articles/CBMifGh0dHBzOi8vYmxlYWNoZXJyZXBvcnQuY29tL2FydGljbGVzLzEwMDIzNzU0LXJlcG9ydC1icmlhbi1mbG9yZXMtbm90LXNoeS1hYm91dC10ZWxsaW5nLXR1YS10YWdvdmFpbG9hLWhlLXByZWZlcnJlZC1tYWMtam9uZXPSAYwBaHR0cHM6Ly9zeW5kaWNhdGlvbi5ibGVhY2hlcnJlcG9ydC5jb20vYW1wLzEwMDIzNzU0LXJlcG9ydC1icmlhbi1mbG9yZXMtbm90LXNoeS1hYm91dC10ZWxsaW5nLXR1YS10YWdvdmFpbG9hLWhlLXByZWZlcnJlZC1tYWMtam9uZXMuYW1wLmh0bWw?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US:en
 

luckiestman

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That story is strange. Flores couldn't have picked Jones instead of Tua. He could have picked Herbert. Either they screwed up the quote, or the reporter didn't get the context properly
Lombardi fucked this up I think.
 

Euclis20

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It makes sense to me, though it's worded awkwardly. He wasn't going to draft Jones instead of Tua, he would have given up on Tua (after one year) and drafted Jones. Presumably Tua would've been traded for something after that. This feels like a bit of a hatchet job, but I guess we'll see.
 

Mystic Merlin

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Many guys will claw eyes out to get any head coaching job, but if I’m a guy with options I’m not thrilled about the prospect of walking into a ‘Make it work with Tua to the tune of becoming a regular playoff team or else’ situation.
 

rymflaherty

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Many guys will claw eyes out to get any head coaching job, but if I’m a guy with options I’m not thrilled about the prospect of walking into a ‘Make it work with Tua to the tune of becoming a regular playoff team or else’ situation.
It really should be, Tua makes it work this year, or they move on from him.
It’s a tough situation, because so far it really looks like he needs a specific system to succeed and Tua hasn’t shown enough where I’d feel confident about using resources to bring in players that specifically fit what he does well.

My hope would be that Tua and the new coach would meet somewhere in the middle.
As opposed to the nightmare scenario I’m thinking of where the team limits their search to someone willing to design an offense for Tua, then they draft and sign guys to fit a heavy rpo scheme, only for them to move on from Tua in a year or two and be left with a roster of players that don’t fit the next offense.
 

sodenj5

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It really should be, Tua makes it work this year, or they move on from him.
It’s a tough situation, because so far it really looks like he needs a specific system to succeed and Tua hasn’t shown enough where I’d feel confident about using resources to bring in players that specifically fit what he does well.

My hope would be that Tua and the new coach would meet somewhere in the middle.
As opposed to the nightmare scenario I’m thinking of where the team limits their search to someone willing to design an offense for Tua, then they draft and sign guys to fit a heavy rpo scheme, only for them to move on from Tua in a year or two and be left with a roster of players that don’t fit the next offense.
I’m not 100% sure that Tua needs a specific system to win. The Alabama offense evolved and changed year to year as they turned over their coordinators each year Tua was there. He played for Daboll, Locksley, and Sarkisian in three years. He’s played in a variety of different offenses, but everyone now says he needs to play in an RPO offense to succeed.

I think Tua can execute the RPO offense as good as anyone in the league. He has great footwork, a great feel for the reads, and gets the ball out super quick. But I also think he can thrive in a west coast offense. I think he would thrive in a Shanahan wide zone/PA rollout offense.

Miami oddly made little use of Tua’s mobility. Maybe in part to protect him in his rookie year, but he has decent mobility. When he is decisive and pulls the ball down to run like we saw vs NE, he showed he still has some wheels.

What I’m saying is Tua certainly has limitations to his game, but I’m also not convinced that having him run an RPO heavy scheme is the absolute pinnacle of his utilization in the NFL.
 

rymflaherty

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Well, I hope the team is thinking like you @sodenj5
I really don’t know the answer, but I’m fine finding out. I guess that was what I was getting at…I hope it’s a McDaniel or Daboll that is installing Tua into their system (and obviously adding concepts that should help Tua succeed to that).
 

sodenj5

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Interesting name Miami has requested as an interview:

View: https://twitter.com/tompelissero/status/1482042805681852422?s=21


This feels like it would be more along the lines of a Brian Flores type of hire than hiring a specific offensive or defensive coordinator. Obviously Flores was unofficially the defensive coordinator in New England. Would be interesting to see how Brown intends to fill out a staff.

Was reading this article on Brown and it certainly gave me that Flores-esque leader-first type of guy.

https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/seahawks//rams-assistant-brown-capitalizing-on-opportunity-from-mcvay/

An extremely pertinent quote in the wake of the Flores firing from Brown in that article.

“I think too often, many guys in the coaching profession try to emulate the guy they learned the most from,” Brown said. “To me, that’s the difference between learning from guys and being yourself. I’ve learned from a lot of people, but I’m going to be myself until the day I die.”
 

sodenj5

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Some Mike McDaniel propaganda.

View: https://twitter.com/qbcollective/status/1482279789540958208?s=21


Interesting to note that Miami has not queued up to interview Doug Pederson as of yet. I was listening to the 3YPC podcast and they speculated that it may be that Pederson is too tight with some folks in the building. IE he’s a golf buddy of Marino and has ties to some other guys. They might be looking for a clean slate to start with so they can evaluate without bias.
 

sodenj5

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Seems weird given that Deshaun is far from in the clear with the NFL’s punishment still looming.
I mean, Flores is clearly thinking beyond just 2022. Even if Watson has to sit an entire year, which would be both unlikely and unprecedented, he’s still very much in his prime for another 5 or 6 years beyond that.

Watson likely has the ability to make most, if not all of the suits go away. He just hasn’t because he doesn’t want to play for Houston. He also has a no-trade clause and can dictate where he goes.
 

BigSoxFan

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I mean, Flores is clearly thinking beyond just 2022. Even if Watson has to sit an entire year, which would be both unlikely and unprecedented, he’s still very much in his prime for another 5 or 6 years beyond that.

Watson likely has the ability to make most, if not all of the suits go away. He just hasn’t because he doesn’t want to play for Houston. He also has a no-trade clause and can dictate where he goes.
Truthfully, not the worst strategy since a HC can only do so much with a sub-par QB situation. But since Watson won’t go back to Houston, that kind of complicates things. NYG would be an interesting location if Mara can work his favored son standing with Goodell.
 

sodenj5

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LOL, you wouldn't jump at the chance to leave Miami for Buffalo in mid-January? A nice little getaway to the frozen bowels of hell?
Maybe Ross had a craving for wings and figured he could bang out the interviews and hit Anchor Bar in one stop.
 

rymflaherty

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I’m at the point where I’m expecting Vance Joseph to be the next coach…

If McDaniel is as smart as I think he is, I’m not sure why he’d even want this job. Same may be true for all the in-demand candidates.

And even if McDaniel were interested, I’m not sure Grier is going to stake his career on a big swing like that. It’s why I wouldn’t be surprised if he goes the “safe” route and after the issues with Flores, there’s nothing safer than going with a guy you (and seemingly Ross) know, like and get along with.

I guess now that I’ve set my bar this low, it will be tough to be too disappointed.

Although, fwiw, it’s just sort of a guy feeling thing, but I have the worst feeling about Daboll. Watching last night just entrenched that more, as I’m not sure what from that Bills offense can be replicated in Miami without Allen as the QB.
 

sodenj5

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I’m at the point where I’m expecting Vance Joseph to be the next coach…

If McDaniel is as smart as I think he is, I’m not sure why he’d even want this job. Same may be true for all the in-demand candidates.

And even if McDaniel were interested, I’m not sure Grier is going to stake his career on a big swing like that. It’s why I wouldn’t be surprised if he goes the “safe” route and after the issues with Flores, there’s nothing safer than going with a guy you (and seemingly Ross) know, like and get along with.

I guess now that I’ve set my bar this low, it will be tough to be too disappointed.

Although, fwiw, it’s just sort of a guy feeling thing, but I have the worst feeling about Daboll. Watching last night just entrenched that more, as I’m not sure what from that Bills offense can be replicated in Miami without Allen as the QB.
Josh Allen is certainly a bit of that secret wing sauce that makes the offense tick. He repeatedly fired missiles into tight coverage and split the cover 2 safeties. That isn’t really a club in Tua’s bag, which makes me think that McDaniel is probably a better fit for Tua.

Jimmy G and Tua aren’t that dissimilar. I think you can squint and see Tua in that role anchored with a dominant defense and run game. I think McDaniel can probably cook up some interesting RPO wrinkles for Tua as well off of the run game.

McDaniel is probably another year or two from being “the” hot coaching name, and I think there will always be questions about how much of the Niners success is attributed to Shanahan and how much involvement he has.

If you’re Grier, you’ve already staked your reputation to Tua, for better or worse. You had a coach come in and build a dominant defense and bail on the QB. Now you can keep the defense and hire Wink Martindale or Vic Fangio and get an offensive coach to try and maximize Tua and build a respectable running game, something Flores absolutely did not do in Miami.
 

rymflaherty

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i actually used Jimmy G as the closest comp to Tua over on Dolphins Reddit today, sure that got downvoted to hell lol

I was listening to Mina Kimes’ podcast last week and they were having a lengthy discussion about Jimmy, and I realized you could have just inserted Tua’s name and it would have been the same conversation…
Gets the ball out quick, great accuracy in the quick passing game, can’t (or doesn’t) really attack sideline, mistakes often come from putting too much air under the ball down the middle of the field, etc etc.

The one difference would be, at this point and after playing under Shannahan for years, I think Garoppolo is pretty close to a finished product, where as there’s still a chance we see more from Tua with a new coach, scheme, hopefully better players around him.
 

Euclis20

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i actually used Jimmy G as the closest comp to Tua over on Dolphins Reddit today, sure that got downvoted to hell lol

I was listening to Mina Kimes’ podcast last week and they were having a lengthy discussion about Jimmy, and I realized you could have just inserted Tua’s name and it would have been the same conversation…
Gets the ball out quick, great accuracy in the quick passing game, can’t (or doesn’t) really attack sideline, mistakes often come from putting too much air under the ball down the middle of the field, etc etc.

The one difference would be, at this point and after playing under Shannahan for years, I think Garoppolo is pretty close to a finished product, where as there’s still a chance we see more from Tua with a new coach, scheme, hopefully better players around him.
Maybe it's included in the etc's, but Jimmy's biggest problem (and there are a few) is his availability, or lack thereof. It's basically untenable to have a QB that consistently misses time to injury, and unfortunately Tua has started down a similar path.
 

sodenj5

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The injury history was not something discussed, but now that you mention it, yes, that certainly fits as well.
It feels like Daboll to NYG may be happening, and I think that basically leaves Miami staring down Mike McDaniel and Vance Joseph.

VJ could probably keep the train on the tracks as far as the defense is concerned, but I would have major questions about who he intends to bring in to run the offense.

I’m not sure how Miami does it, but it feels like they need to secure McDaniel. The appeal for him would be walking into a roster with good young talent, a ton of cap space, and he gets his HC opportunity maybe a year or two sooner than anywhere else.

There aren’t a ton of head coaching opportunities that pop up where you inherit a team and a roster coming off back to back winning seasons. Obviously, that comes with its own caveats and red flags, but he wouldn’t be taking over the Jags or the Jets or the usual opening that pop up where you’re walking into a bad situation and are expected to right the ship entirely. Flores did a ton of that heavy lifting already.
 

tims4wins

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It feels like Daboll to NYG may be happening, and I think that basically leaves Miami staring down Mike McDaniel and Vance Joseph.

VJ could probably keep the train on the tracks as far as the defense is concerned, but I would have major questions about who he intends to bring in to run the offense.

I’m not sure how Miami does it, but it feels like they need to secure McDaniel. The appeal for him would be walking into a roster with good young talent, a ton of cap space, and he gets his HC opportunity maybe a year or two sooner than anywhere else.

There aren’t a ton of head coaching opportunities that pop up where you inherit a team and a roster coming off back to back winning seasons. Obviously, that comes with its own caveats and red flags, but he wouldn’t be taking over the Jags or the Jets or the usual opening that pop up where you’re walking into a bad situation and are expected to right the ship entirely. Flores did a ton of that heavy lifting already.
I really, really don't get this. Retread coach who wasn't very successful in his first stint, defense oriented like the previous coach... feels like perpetual 6-8 win territory. Which as a Pats fan of course makes me happy.

View: https://twitter.com/JohnnyVenerable/status/1485803337803083778?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1485803337803083778%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=
 

Cellar-Door

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I really, really don't get this. Retread coach who wasn't very successful in his first stint, defense oriented like the previous coach... feels like perpetual 6-8 win territory. Which as a Pats fan of course makes me happy.

View: https://twitter.com/JohnnyVenerable/status/1485803337803083778?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1485803337803083778%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=
I would guess part of it is likely that he has good relationships in the building, he was there in 2016.

Joseph is a good D-coordinator. As a head coach... who knows. He only got 2 years in DEN (5-11, 6-10) which wasn't exactly a long time to build, and the coaches after him didn't do any better. Also... when your QB options are Case Keenum and Brandon Allen , going 6-10 isn't bad.
 

jsinger121

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I would be extremely happy if the Dolphins hired Vance Joseph because I don’t think he’s a very good head coach and they just fired a guy who is night and day better than Joseph.
 

Super Nomario

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I would guess part of it is likely that he has good relationships in the building, he was there in 2016.

Joseph is a good D-coordinator. As a head coach... who knows. He only got 2 years in DEN (5-11, 6-10) which wasn't exactly a long time to build, and the coaches after him didn't do any better. Also... when your QB options are Case Keenum and Brandon Allen , going 6-10 isn't bad.
I'm struggling to find precedents for a head coach like Joseph who was so unsuccessful in his previous stint and got a second job with so little intervening time. Even retreads like Gase and Jauron had at least one decent season in there, and Pat Shurmur had twice as many years between failed HC gigs. I think the Pats hiring Pete Carroll back in 1997 is probably closest.
 

Cellar-Door

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I'm struggling to find precedents for a head coach like Joseph who was so unsuccessful in his previous stint and got a second job with so little intervening time. Even retreads like Gase and Jauron had at least one decent season in there, and Pat Shurmur had twice as many years between failed HC gigs. I think the Pats hiring Pete Carroll back in 1997 is probably closest.
It's a bit unusual, but also precedent is tough because... most coaches don't get fired after 2 years, especially not when they win more in year 2 than year 1. Plenty of coaches had similar starts to their head coaching careers. Joseph is another in the long line of black coaches who got fired very very quickly despite not particularly terrible results.
 

rymflaherty

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It shouldn’t be a surprise…I connected the dots this weekend and posted before the reports started coming out lol
Sincerely hope I’m wrong though, if that means it’s McDaniel.

If it is Joseph, I have to imagine there’s an agreed upon OC that’s attached to him. That Joseph is part of a package, a mostly already formed staff, that Grier and Joseph worked on together. It’s where their existing relationship may have been a deciding factor.
 

sodenj5

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Based off the rumors I was reading, it’s sounded like Daboll’s staff was going to consist of Wink Martindale and Ken Dorsey as his coordinators.

I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t a little envious because that’s essentially the exact staff I would have liked to see end up in Miami. Bills fans seem to think that Dorsey might stay in Buffalo to be the OC, but Dorsey is also a Miami guy, so I can see him trading his snowblower in for a jet ski to come back home and go with Daboll. Dorsey has also received a lot of credit for his work with Josh Allen and helping refine his game.

Wink would be a slam dunk hire as a DC. He would inherit a ready made defense and I think Miami would pick up right where they left off on that side of the ball.

I’m feeling a bit more optimistic today than I was a few days ago when it sounded like Vance Joseph was a real possibility.
 
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Based off the rumors I was reading, it’s sounded like Daboll’s staff was going to consist of Wink Martindale and Ken Dorsey as his coordinators.

I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t a little envious because that’s essentially the exact staff I would have liked to see end up in Miami. Bills fans seem to think that Dorsey might stay in Buffalo to be the OC, but Dorsey is also a Miami guy, so I can see him trading his snowblower in for a jet ski to come back home and go with Daboll. Dorsey has also received a lot of credit for his work with Josh Allen and helping refine his game.

Wink would be a slam dunk hire as a DC. He would inherit a ready made defense and I think Miami would pick up right where they left off on that side of the ball.

I’m feeling a bit more optimistic today than I was a few days ago when it sounded like Vance Joseph was a real possibility.
This also scares me significantly more than Joseph, if you want the opposing fan’s viewpoint. Would make Mia an even tougher out than they are typically. It would be interesting to know what opportunities Wink has at the moment.
 

sodenj5

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This also scares me significantly more than Joseph, if you want the opposing fan’s viewpoint. Would make Mia an even tougher out than they are typically. It would be interesting to know what opportunities Wink has at the moment.
I’m sure there are a lot of OC/HCs that would like to hire Wink. I’m just basing off of what was reported when it sounded like Daboll was hours away from becoming the Giants HC.

I think Miami would be appealing for Wink because the defense is stacked and they already run a press coverage, blitz heavy scheme.
 

tims4wins

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This also scares me significantly more than Joseph, if you want the opposing fan’s viewpoint. Would make Mia an even tougher out than they are typically. It would be interesting to know what opportunities Wink has at the moment.
Fully agree. Not gonna lie I saw the Joseph rumor and was very happy.
 

tims4wins

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Daboll going to the Giants.

Miami’s 2nd interview list down to two. I would imagine the clubhouse leader at this point has to be McDaniel.

View: https://twitter.com/BThomps81/status/1487166946353291265?s=20&t=EcLVzchnK0fFAMlDBo5o-g
McDaniel would be fascinating. As a younger Pats fan (i.e., not scarred by history prior to the mid-90s), I don’t have the same antagonistic passion toward the Dolphins as some older fans (aside from the Pats sucking in Miami over the last 20 years). It’s not that I’d be rooting for them, but similar to Flores, I wouldn’t be totally rooting agains them at all costs. My guess is that while McDaniel might be a fantastic innovator and brilliant offensive mind, it’s hard to imagine him having the leadership / organizational / people skills to succeed immediately. Almost like an offensive version of Bill Belichick with the Browns.
 
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McDaniel would be fascinating. As a younger Pats fan (i.e., not scarred by history prior to the mid-90s), I don’t have the same antagonistic passion toward the Dolphins as some older fans (aside from the Pats sucking in Miami over the last 20 years). It’s not that I’d be rooting for them, but similar to Flores, I wouldn’t be totally rooting agains them at all costs. My guess is that while McDaniel might be a fantastic innovator and brilliant offensive mind, it’s hard to imagine him having the leadership / organizational / people skills to succeed immediately. Almost like an offensive version of Bill Belichick with the Browns.
Seems like a nice guy and I am sure he’s well trained but this scares me less than Daboll given the range of experience and familiarity with the Pats.