Dolphins: Year Tua

Should Miami Trade for Deshaun Watson

  • Yes. Deshaun is a star. Take the known entity.

    Votes: 68 70.8%
  • No. Build around Tua and forge a stronger overall team.

    Votes: 28 29.2%

  • Total voters
    96
  • Poll closed .

rymflaherty

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2010
3,192
Norfolk
Yesterdays even more disappointing realizing they held Waller and Drake to 111 yards from scrimmage, over nearly 5 quarters.

If you have me that stat, I’d have felt good about a Dolphins victory. I figured Waller would go over that himself if the Raiders were to win
 

sodenj5

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
5,169
CT
Maybe too early, but this game feels like a must-win. You start looking up the schedule and counting wins and losses, if they drop this game, a road to the playoffs starts to become an uphill battle.

Colts coming in winless and really banged up. That’s good, but they also might empty the kitchen sink to try and claw out a W. Miami needs to be ready for everything. Trick plays, fake punts, the works.

If you told me in the preseason, Miami comes out of this brutal 5 game start to the year 2-3, I would have said that sounds about right. I would have hoped for 3-2. Last week was Miami’s chance to flip it to 3-2 and they went toe-to-toe with a hot offense on the road and lost in OT. I can live with that.

If they start 1-4, I would have said that’s pretty concerning. Tua or no Tua, this offense has to perform. That starts with the O Line. It includes the receivers getting open, and it includes the coordinators not calling a shit offense. Hopefully the end of the Raiders game have everyone a little more confidence that they can push the ball further than 4 yards at a clip.
 

sodenj5

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
5,169
CT
Well, this is a dumpster fire. Can’t tell you how much I hate the decision to not even let Sanders attempt the 55 yard FG and punt the ball. Miami gets the ball back in Indy territory, goes 3 and out, punts again and it’s a touchback.

That’s chickenshit coaching and playing not to lose. At home. Against a winless team. Shows you where Flores thinks this offense is. They have 3 points off the muffed punt and that’s it.
 

CouchsideSteve

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Apr 16, 2013
340
New York, NY
I don’t see very much reason for optimism over the rest of the year. The offensive line being so bad is problematic not only for pass protection, but also because it undermines the threat of playaction — particularly with such an underwhelming stable of RBs.

So Tua is coming back to a likely 1-4 team, with some winnable games in front of him. But I can’t imagine he’ll be operating at peak confidence, and he’s going to get blitzed into the ground. Probably realizes that he’s playing to keep ahold of his job next season too, fair or not.
 

sodenj5

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
5,169
CT
I don’t see very much reason for optimism over the rest of the year. The offensive line being so bad is problematic not only for pass protection, but also because it undermines the threat of playaction — particularly with such an underwhelming stable of RBs.

So Tua is coming back to a likely 1-4 team, with some winnable games in front of him. But I can’t imagine he’ll be operating at peak confidence, and he’s going to get blitzed into the ground. Probably realizes that he’s playing to keep ahold of his job next season too, fair or not.
Unfortunately, I have little faith the rest of this year that they can beat anyone but the bottom of the barrel.

The offense is one of, if not, the worst in the league by almost every metric. This falls on everyone.

Grier for his talent evaluation and selecting what looks like a terrible core of offensive linemen. Grier again for passing on every running back in the draft and trying to be the smartest guy in the room by going with and undersized RB as your workhorse and supplementing him with retreaded veterans.

The 2020 draft looks like a colossal mistake. I still think Tua has the ability to be a good starter in this league, but there is no denying Herbert looks like a better pro than he ever looked at Oregon, and looks to be either the best or second best QB in that draft, depending on how you view Burrow. Jackson is an abject failure, and Noah Igbinoghene has been a healthy scratch for 3 of the first 4 weeks this year.

In my opinion, Grier should lose his job over this. He was given a clean slate the likes of which have rarely been seen in the NFL and was given near unlimited resources in terms of cap and draft capital, and this team has taken a large step backwards.

Flores isn’t absolved of blame. This team is built in his image, the way he wanted it to be. He has input on personnel. He has yet to make a good hire on the offensive side of the ball. That being said, I think he’s a good coach, the team has played hard for him, and they have won games they had no business winning the last two years.

I’m not sure where this leaves them as a franchise. If you can Grier, do you keep Flores, or do you go full clean slate and reevaluate the entire roster?
 

rymflaherty

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2010
3,192
Norfolk
Maybe the team just got confused and they’ve been striving to meet the wrong definition of “offensive”?

Seriously though, even trying to think reasonably, I can’t fathom how the two OC thing should last another day.

Whichever of the two they feel is more creative and could potentially thrive with more responsibility should be named OC. There’s no way the two are agreeing on everything…one must have a slightly better vision at this point. I can’t imagine that a singular voice and vision could hurt matters at this point….think you have to give that a shot.

As for Tua, after seeing how things have gone without him, if he comes back and plays well the rest of the way, I don’t think there should be any doubt that he’s the guy you want to build around.

edit * - in the Grier criticisms, you forgot one of the most annoying things at the moment sodenj5 - if this season really does go to hell the team isn’t even going to benefit from it since Philly has their pick.
They have to turn things around and at least hope to be mediocre.
 
Last edited:

sodenj5

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
5,169
CT
Maybe the team just got confused and they’ve been striving to meet the wrong definition of “offensive”?

Seriously though, even trying to think reasonably, I can’t fathom how the two OC thing should last another day.

Whichever of the two they feel is more creative and could potentially thrive with more responsibility should be named OC. There’s no way the two are agreeing on everything…one must have a slightly better vision at this point. I can’t imagine that a singular voice and vision could hurt matters at this point….think you have to give that a shot.

As for Tua, after seeing how things have gone without him, if he comes back and plays well the rest of the way, I don’t think there should be any doubt that he’s the guy you want to build around.

edit * - in the Grier criticisms, you forgot one of the most annoying things at the moment sodenj5 - if this season really does go to hell the team isn’t even going to benefit from it since Philly has their pick.
They have to turn things around and at least hope to be mediocre.
The other thing is there seems to be legitimate smoke surrounding Charlie Frye as the play caller. Dilfer said it earlier in an interview with Rich Eisen, and now Dave Hyde quoted a source today that said they knew “for a fact” it is Frye calling the plays.

So is Godsey the passing game coordinator, Studesville is the running game coordinator, and Frye actually the play caller? Frye was thought of by some around the league pretty highly as a bright future OC, but whatever is happening, it isn’t working.

Also, for as bad as everything goes from a playcall and a protection issue, Brissett just flat out misses things and leaves plays on the field. Feast your eyes on these dots:

View: https://twitter.com/marcel_lj/status/1444716267127115785?s=21


That’s Waddle coming wide open for a deep ball right in front of Brissett’s face, and he checks it down.

The offense just feels like it has no rhythm, no execution. They wanted to pass the ball downfield this year more, but the line has been so bad, that they have gone ultra conservative and turtle until they have no choice but to start pushing downfield because they’re losing.

Maybe Tua comes back and they can find a groove versus Jacksonville and Atlanta. Or maybe they continue to look lost out there.
 

pdaj

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 15, 2002
3,256
From Waltham to Providence
Life's been very busy for me of late, which has been a blessing, considering Miami's season thus far. What a freakin' train wreck.

That said, things can get back on track with a win tomorrow. Tua returns the following week to face the Jaguars, and suddenly the Dolphins are 3-3.

Now, how is a win tomorrow going to happen? No clue. But, let's acknowledge 2 things:

1) Desperate teams can be dangerous.

2) If Brady was ever primed for a letdown game, it's going to be following his first return back to Foxboro in an opposing team's uniform. Plus, it's not like he hasn't let less-talented Miami teams beat him before.

Leggo!
 

CouchsideSteve

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Apr 16, 2013
340
New York, NY
The defense, which is supposed to be a strength, is getting absolutely picked apart.

The argument for Flores being a good coach rests on getting the least talented roster in the NFL to go 5-11 rather than 1-15 in 2019. The uneven performance over the last 20.5 games leaves a lot of questions unanswered. Like his former colleague coaching up in NJ, he is painfully conservative. Today should be a ‘kitchen sink’ game, and we’re sitting back in soft coverage, hoping our backup QB can match Tom Brady and the best WR corps in the NFL blow for blow.

Same old Dolphins.
 

sodenj5

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
5,169
CT
The defense, which is supposed to be a strength, is getting absolutely picked apart.

The argument for Flores being a good coach rests on getting the least talented roster in the NFL to go 5-11 rather than 1-15 in 2019. The uneven performance over the last 20.5 games leaves a lot of questions unanswered. Like his former colleague coaching up in NJ, he is painfully conservative. Today should be a ‘kitchen sink’ game, and we’re sitting back in soft coverage, hoping our backup QB can match Tom Brady and the best WR corps in the NFL blow for blow.

Same old Dolphins.
I disagree with some of this. They’ve been far more aggressive on offense today. On defense, the Bucs have so many weapons, what do you do?

I wouldn’t call him painfully conservative. There are times he’s leaned on the defense too heavily and things I’ve disagreed with, but he seems to take chances when it makes sense to do so.
 

CouchsideSteve

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Apr 16, 2013
340
New York, NY
I disagree with some of this. They’ve been far more aggressive on offense today. On defense, the Bucs have so many weapons, what do you do?

I wouldn’t call him painfully conservative. There are times he’s leaned on the defense too heavily and things I’ve disagreed with, but he seems to take chances when it makes sense to do so.
Admittedly some of this is venting frustration. But this team is neither creative nor good, despite more or less starting last season with a clean slate. If Tua doesn’t make *substantial* strides over the final 2/3 of the season, I don’t know what we’re looking forward to.
 
Apr 24, 2019
893
Isn't this more on the FO than Flores? Tua hasn't worked out so far, some of that is on him, some on injuries (that they could arguably have seen coming), but I'm not sure I see Flores as the biggest problem there. But you guys watch it way more closely than I do.
 

luckiestman

Son of the Harpy
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
23,079
Isn't this more on the FO than Flores? Tua hasn't worked out so far, some of that is on him, some on injuries (that they could arguably have seen coming), but I'm not sure I see Flores as the biggest problem there. But you guys watch it way more closely than I do.
I’m getting a very Todd Bowles vibe even down to the wins with Fitzy. I liked Bowles but he couldn’t survive the NYC media and goofy owners.
 

mauf

Anderson Cooper × Mr. Rogers
Staff member
Dope
The season is lost now, which brings a bit of clarity. Gotta play Tua when he’s healthy and see what you’ve got. And you’ll see how the team responds to Flores — this is his third year, so it’s certainly not a foregone conclusion he’ll be back.

If you think you have a good team with a wretched QB situation, that’s very different than having a team that has a lot of holes and simply isn’t very good.
 

sodenj5

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
5,169
CT
The only thing that truly matters this year is figuring out whether or not Tua is the guy, and the line was so bad, that train was derailed 2 drives into Week 2.

It’s hard to preach patience when you see Herbert looking like a star, Burrow looking really good, and Tua is about to go back in with Jesse Davis still at RT where he nearly got Jacoby Brissett murdered today.

That being said, Tua has to show flashes. He has to show he’s taking a jump, and it has to start against Jacksonville.

If Miami loses to Jacksonville, it’s red alert time. I’m willing to give them somewhat of a hall pass considering they were missing Tua and facing a tough slate of games. You lose with Tua to a bad Jags team, you really are a truly bad team, and this team has taken a large step backwards.
 

CouchsideSteve

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Apr 16, 2013
340
New York, NY
As a lifelong Dolphins fan, I’m honestly not sure I’m rooting for a win on Sunday. The production relative to cap space and draft capital is simply not OK.

I ragged on Flores earlier because the defense is awful, despite an abundance of spend. But if we cut him slack, Grier has been with the organization more than 20 years, in charge of personnel since 2016. He hasn’t presided over a single moment of relevance.

The 2021 draft class looks pretty good. Otherwise, what evidence do we have that this rebuild is even pointed in the right direction?
 

sodenj5

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
5,169
CT
The team is broken. The season is lost. The rest of this year is about evaluating who stays and who goes, including Flores, Grier, and Tua.

Tua played well and had one head-scratchingly bad decision. Down his top two receivers (again) the offense played ok, despite all of the running backs seemingly dropping every ball near them.

Flores seemed to collapse in the 4th quarter. The Gaskin drop didn’t look anywhere near clear catch/drop and was a wasted challenge. The deflection on the punt was a better use of a challenge as a potential 7 point swing, but again nothing looked clear and Flores burned two timeouts and both challenges on two plays he had no shot of winning.

The 4th and 1 call was a disaster. Miami can’t get any push all game and they dial up a run to Malcom Brown and fail to get a single yard, after Gesicki runs a route short of the sticks for about the third time that game.

We saw one coach take the ball out of his QBs hands with the game on the line and another trust his QB with a chance to win the game.

If the defense has regressed, the offense looks bad, and we’re playing undisciplined football and making critical mistakes at critical moments in the game, what is Flores bringing to the team?
 

rymflaherty

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2010
3,192
Norfolk
I’d already accepted that this team wasn’t as good as I thought they would be, but this loss has me real dejected…I guess I wasn’t prepared for, lose to the Jags worst team in the league, kind of bad.

It’s still hard for me to even accept they lost that game, and some of the circumstances that led to it being a loss.
You’d think by now I’d be used to the ineptitude.
 

luckiestman

Son of the Harpy
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
23,079

sodenj5

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
5,169
CT
Having had a few hours to reflect, I’m concerned for the coaching at all levels on this team. The things that Miami WAS doing that lead me to believe Flores was coaching this team well have evaporated this season.

Miami was playing disciplined. They were one of the least penalized teams in the league. They were playing high level defense and passable offense. They were playing outstanding special teams and complimentary football. They were not beating themselves and they were winning games they had no business winning.

Miami is one of the worst teams in football in all three phases. The defense has regressed severely and they have the same staff and the same stars on that side of the ball. They added a first round pass rusher and a second round safety. Jerome Baker looks completely lost out there on every passing play. They struggle to stop the run. They struggle to get off the field on third down.

The three coordinator experiment was basically canned, which means Flores, for the third straight year, botched the offensive side of the ball. Miami being too cute and passing on every draft eligible running back reared it’s head today in a big way. Horrible drops from Gaskin and Ahmed and Malcom Brown getting stuffed with the game on the line sums up the ineptitude there. Miami gambling on injury prone receivers staying healthy again have hamstrung the offense.

And the straw breaking the camel’s back is Flores taking the ball out of Tua’s hands with the game on the line. He would rather trust Malcom Brown than Tua, despite the fact that Tua made several big plays for the team on third and fourth downs to keep drives alive all game. Flores’s handling of Tua Tagovailoa has been a clinic in how to not handle your young franchise quarterback, essentially undercutting Tua at nearly every turn. Today was the latest example.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
22,479
The team is broken. The season is lost. The rest of this year is about evaluating who stays and who goes, including Flores, Grier, and Tua.

Tua played well and had one head-scratchingly bad decision. Down his top two receivers (again) the offense played ok, despite all of the running backs seemingly dropping every ball near them.

Flores seemed to collapse in the 4th quarter. The Gaskin drop didn’t look anywhere near clear catch/drop and was a wasted challenge. The deflection on the punt was a better use of a challenge as a potential 7 point swing, but again nothing looked clear and Flores burned two timeouts and both challenges on two plays he had no shot of winning.

The 4th and 1 call was a disaster. Miami can’t get any push all game and they dial up a run to Malcom Brown and fail to get a single yard, after Gesicki runs a route short of the sticks for about the third time that game.

We saw one coach take the ball out of his QBs hands with the game on the line and another trust his QB with a chance to win the game.

If the defense has regressed, the offense looks bad, and we’re playing undisciplined football and making critical mistakes at critical moments in the game, what is Flores bringing to the team?
Peaking in here tonight to see if any Fins fans were roasting Flores after this mornings performance of the coaching staff. Burning all 3 timeouts prior to the 2-min warning of the 1H isn’t horrific but certainly questionable considering how he placed zero value in them in the 4Q by using it on the pass over the middle (who is upstairs telling him to challenge that?)……although I agree on using one on the kick due to the impact of the play should a finger had gotten the ball which it almost did. The defense on the final drive is inexcusable…..particular on 4th and 8 with 5 seconds to go. Flores bears accountability and it could be as simple as him not having the right people on his staff. It will be interesting to see if he makes wholesale changes in his staff this offseason should he himself survive.

Never been a Tua guy ever. I never saw where his franchise QB upside came from. He doesn’t have a big arm, doesn’t have elite athleticism or the size. I mean it seems his upside is a Derek Carr/Bridgewater-type with his floor being in the Darnold, Keenum-range. That’s a guy you’re looking to replace…..not to move forward with as your leader.
 

sodenj5

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
5,169
CT
Peaking in here tonight to see if any Fins fans were roasting Flores after this mornings performance of the coaching staff. Burning all 3 timeouts prior to the 2-min warning of the 1H isn’t horrific but certainly questionable considering how he placed zero value in them in the 4Q by using it on the pass over the middle (who is upstairs telling him to challenge that?)……although I agree on using one on the kick due to the impact of the play should a finger had gotten the ball which it almost did. The defense on the final drive is inexcusable…..particular on 4th and 8 with 5 seconds to go. Flores bears accountability and it could be as simple as him not having the right people on his staff. It will be interesting to see if he makes wholesale changes in his staff this offseason should he himself survive.

Never been a Tua guy ever. I never saw where his franchise QB upside came from. He doesn’t have a big arm, doesn’t have elite athleticism or the size. I mean it seems his upside is a Derek Carr/Bridgewater-type with his floor being in the Darnold, Keenum-range. That’s a guy you’re looking to replace…..not to move forward with as your leader.
These are fair statements. What you said about Tua is true. I thought he showed good mobility, but he’s never going to be Josh Allen or Lamar.

However, what are the alternatives? Do you give Houston three firsts for Watson? Do you try and go all in for Rogers for 2 years maybe if he leaves Green Bay? The draft this year looks pretty bad. Outside of a small handful of QBs, every other QB has physical limitations. And for every Allen, who took three years to finally be good, there are a dozen JaMarcus Russell’s or Mitch Trubisky’s. Athletic QBs aren’t any more likely to be good, it’s just their ceiling is much higher if everything does click.

Tua threw for 320 and 2 TDs without his top 2 receivers. I hate to sound like a Tua apologist, but he was pretty low on the list of reasons why Miami lost today.
 

CouchsideSteve

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Apr 16, 2013
340
New York, NY
Tua has been underwhelming, but isn’t the first principle of grooming a promising young QB to pair him with a top offensive coach? If not at HC, then at least at OC or QB coach.

Chan Gailey was a curious hire last season, and for whatever merits the co-OCs leading this year’s offense might offer, let’s just say I’m not worried they’re going to be poached as HCs.

Also, the turnover at coordinator positions tells me any house-cleaning that doesn’t include Flores will be incomplete. Three seasons, three separate OC arrangements, not to mention two DCs. So we trust Flores to hire another set of coordinators to fix this?
 

sodenj5

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
5,169
CT
Tua has been underwhelming, but isn’t the first principle of grooming a promising young QB to pair him with a top offensive coach? If not at HC, then at least at OC or QB coach.

Chan Gailey was a curious hire last season, and for whatever merits the co-OCs leading this year’s offense might offer, let’s just say I’m not worried they’re going to be poached as HCs.

Also, the turnover at coordinator positions tells me any house-cleaning that doesn’t include Flores will be incomplete. Three seasons, three separate OC arrangements, not to mention two DCs. So we trust Flores to hire another set of coordinators to fix this?
If you follow the Flores-OC timeline, you can maybe explain the first two hires.

O’Shea: new head coach, building his first staff, also Flores had less time because NE won the SB. Okay, fine. Didn’t work out.

Gailey: Flores went in to try and maximize the output of Fitzpatrick in 2019. Paired him with the guy he had success with in Buffalo and NYJ. In a vacuum, makes some sense, but again, short sighted. Gailey wasn’t a long term solution and you picked a band-aid solution for your bridge QB when you knew you were going to be selecting a QB.

Studesville/Godsey/Frye- Having a think tank as your OC has not been some sort of revelation that the entire league was missing. Flores said he did this to give Tua some level of continuity coming into this year, passing on several external candidates. The offense has been bad. The play calling has been questionable at times, but it has been hard to separate the failings of the line from the failings of the RBs from the failures of Brissett. It’s been a bit of a dumpster fire all around.

This, coupled with the merry-go-round at offensive line coach, and Flores has yet to show he can build a competent offensive staff.
 

sodenj5

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
5,169
CT
View: https://twitter.com/houtz/status/1449783617413079048?s=21


Flores is usually complimentary of Tua, and will usually sprinkle in some coach talk like, he has stuff that can get better, etc.

His praise of Tua after the game tells me that after some reflection, he believes his quarterback played well. However, in the heat of the moment, when he needs to make a decision in under 40 seconds, his gut instinct is to remove Tua from the equation.

It’s baffling to me they they don’t even give Tua the RPO opportunity. Like they don’t even let him make a decision at the mesh point when he has shown repeatedly it’s something he is very good at. They take it completely out of his hands, because he didn’t feel like Tua had a better chance of success than Malcom Brown did running out of shotgun with one yard to gain.
 

rymflaherty

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2010
3,192
Norfolk
Not saying it’s a good call, but if Smythe doesn’t give the worst possible execution of his duties, I think they pick up a yard on the run.
 

sodenj5

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
5,169
CT
Not saying it’s a good call, but if Smythe doesn’t give the worst possible execution of his duties, I think they pick up a yard on the run.
I’ve seen Smythe whiff egregiously several times the last few weeks. They had the screen to Waddle yesterday and Gesicki somewhat walls off his guy and Smythe completely whiffs on his and Smythe’s guy makes the tackle to limit it to a 4 yard gain.

They also have Smythe running routes and taking reps that Hunter Long should be getting. Like if you’re going to activate him and Shaheen is down, give those reps to Long not Smythe, who has no business running deep seam routes.

Again, befuddling coaching decisions and execution on game day. That’s a coaching issue, unless Long forgot how to run and catch in the last 4 months.
 

rymflaherty

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2010
3,192
Norfolk
Going to say the same thing I said in March, Chase is the best receiver in this past draft, and it’s not particularly close…

Kind of amazing that there’s now a very real scenario where we have to deal with the fact that the Dolphins passed up on one of, if not the best QB and receiver in the league, while the Fins still suck.
 

sodenj5

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
5,169
CT
Going to say the same thing I said in March, Chase is the best receiver in this past draft, and it’s not particularly close…

Kind of amazing that there’s now a very real scenario where we have to deal with the fact that the Dolphins passed up on one of, if not the best QB and receiver in the league, while the Fins still suck.
Miami traded out of the opportunity to draft both Chase and Pitts.

That being said, Waddle looks to be hampered severely by the line. His ADOT is trash. Much like Herbert, I think Chase wouldn’t be having the year he’s having with Miami because they’re never taking deep shots downfield.

4 TDs from Tua that will be overshadowed by two bad picks and a lead the defense couldn’t hold. Again we’ll hear Watson rumors all week as if he’s the silver bullet that fixes the line, the secondary, the run defense, and the pass rush.
 

rymflaherty

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2010
3,192
Norfolk
Maybe ironic, but I actually feel worse about Tua after the last two weeks.

As I’ve seen more of him, the physical limitations are more evident.
I know that’s been a point of contention by many, but I guess I buried my head in the sand a bit, thinking, how the fuck could a team draft a QB #5 if he can’t make all the throws?!?

But now, watching him closer, and looking at the charts, there are entire areas of the field that he simply doesn’t (or maybe can’t) get the ball too. It makes the offense predictable and plays right into the defenses hands.
And I swear, it seems anything over 10 yards seems like a floating touch pass…which is great when you need a touch pass…not so much, if you needed something on a rope.

Yet having said that, I’m not sure what the obvious better situation is…or if they’ll be one.
The whole situation sucks. (Everything, not just QB)
 

sodenj5

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
5,169
CT
Maybe ironic, but I actually feel worse about Tua after the last two weeks.

As I’ve seen more of him, the physical limitations are more evident.
I know that’s been a point of contention by many, but I guess I buried my head in the sand a bit, thinking, how the fuck could a team draft a QB #5 if he can’t make all the throws?!?

But now, watching him closer, and looking at the charts, there are entire areas of the field that he simply doesn’t (or maybe can’t) get the ball too. It makes the offense predictable and plays right into the defenses hands.
And I swear, it seems anything over 10 yards seems like a floating touch pass…which is great when you need a touch pass…not so much, if you needed something on a rope.

Yet having said that, I’m not sure what the obvious better situation is…or if they’ll be one.
The whole situation sucks. (Everything, not just QB)
There are a few issues at play. Tua needs to have a good base to drive throws. He doesn’t have otherworldly arm talent like some other QBs. We saw that with that bad INT last week. His base wasn’t set, he didn’t have time to reset, tried to get the ball outside, and the ball floated right into the defense.

The other issue is the line is so bad, almost everything is short to intermediate because the ball has to come out quick.

The big play is near non-existent. They had a few chunk plays to Gesicki. But anytime they try to go deep, they’re dialing up 2 or 3 man routes off of playaction with max protection, and they check it down.

I’m not sure what the answer is. Fuller and Parker still have yet to be on the field with Tua together. Will it get better? Will the line improve? I have no clue. I doubt it gets better next week against Buffalo though.
 

sodenj5

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
5,169
CT
I’d keep Flores, stay patient and invest a TON in OL. They can still make this work, IMO.
I was leaning that way, but the wheels are falling off the bus, and Flores is as big a part of it as anyone else.

The rate he’s burned through coordinators and coaches is alarming to say the least. Miami’s premium young talent has flatlined this year, the defense has regressed, and his offensive coordinator experiment largely failed. Miami has looked better on offense the last two weeks, in large part because they shitcanned the experimental coordinator by committee and handed the playcalling to Godsey.

Miami also spent a first, two seconds, a third and a fourth on the o line the last 2 years. Sometimes the picks are bad, but sometimes the coaching isn’t helping either. Miami invested heavily in the OLine and have one of, if not the worst lines in football.
 

wilked

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 17, 2005
2,793
Miami traded out of the opportunity to draft both Chase and Pitts.

That being said, Waddle looks to be hampered severely by the line. His ADOT is trash. Much like Herbert, I think Chase wouldn’t be having the year he’s having with Miami because they’re never taking deep shots downfield.

4 TDs from Tua that will be overshadowed by two bad picks and a lead the defense couldn’t hold. Again we’ll hear Watson rumors all week as if he’s the silver bullet that fixes the line, the secondary, the run defense, and the pass rush.
And now they will be givibg maybe a top 3 pick to the Eagles for their IOU
 

sodenj5

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
5,169
CT
And now they will be givibg maybe a top 3 pick to the Eagles for their IOU
True. However Miami has SF’s pick which is currently at 10th.

Obviously not a top 3 or top 5 pick, but still not bad. This year’s draft also kind of sucks, so not sure they’re missing out on a generational talent going from 2 to 10 and guys like Kenyon Green (guard) and Tyler Linderbaum (center) might be in that mid first round striking range.

Thibodeaux and Neal would certainly be nice though.
 

RG33

Potty Mouth
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Nov 28, 2005
5,122
CA
January 9th is really looking like an important game for both franchises. A potential playoff spot for the rookie-QB-lead Patriots, and the annual superbowl for the Miami Dolphins. Should be a fun game to watch and experience for everyone. Let’s hope Tua is active and still starting so we can see the closest thing to Herbert that we will find outside of this upcoming Sunday.
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
26,145
Unless they know something/have received messages from league that they are moving within that timeframe it's an odd thing to have out there, isn't it? I get trading for him at a discount and bearing the risk, but odd to leak you have a deal "only if" something essentially unpredictable happens in the next week.
 

sodenj5

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
5,169
CT
Unless they know something/have received messages from league that they are moving within that timeframe it's an odd thing to have out there, isn't it? I get trading for him at a discount and bearing the risk, but odd to leak you have a deal "only if" something essentially unpredictable happens in the next week.
Miami isn’t leaking anything. Houston keeps leaking info because they really, really want someone to take Deshaun off their hands while also giving up 5 premium assets to do so.

I also think this report in particular is McClain backtracking to cover his own ass after realizing he got played by Houston. Last week, only Houston beat writers were pumping that a deal was close. Now it’s a deal is “agreed upon” but , by the way, only if an impossible set of criteria are met in the next week.
 

rymflaherty

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2010
3,192
Norfolk
I want no part of Watson, if they trade for Watson, it’s my intent to finally be done with this team…

But I’d go as far as to say that as long as Tua is competent, it’s dumb for them to trade any assets for any QB. It’s evident now, i and many jumped the gun in regards to how far along this team was. They aren’t a player away, even if that player is a great QB. This team needs every high pick they have.
Fo me it makes sense to stick with Tua, build the team, and if Tua doesn’t show improvement, then you gamble your future a bit if need be.
Doesn’t mean they can’t have competition over the next year or two, but I’d bring in veterans or maybe they get lucky and someone falls to them in the draft or hit on a late round guy. Just no way I’m trading multiple 1sts with the roster the way it is.
 

sodenj5

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
5,169
CT
I want no part of Watson, if they trade for Watson, it’s my intent to finally be done with this team…

But I’d go as far as to say that as long as Tua is competent, it’s dumb for them to trade any assets for any QB. It’s evident now, i and many jumped the gun in regards to how far along this team was. They aren’t a player away, even if that player is a great QB. This team needs every high pick they have.
Fo me it makes sense to stick with Tua, build the team, and if Tua doesn’t show improvement, then you gamble your future a bit if need be.
Doesn’t mean they can’t have competition over the next year or two, but I’d bring in veterans or maybe they get lucky and someone falls to them in the draft or hit on a late round guy. Just no way I’m trading multiple 1sts with the roster the way it is.
Miami painted themselves into a Deshaun or Tua corner here as well. This upcoming draft class sucks for QBs. Last year’s was pretty loaded. If they were going to move on from Tua, it would have been last year or after next season.

Deshaun is the only other option for them at this point if they want to get out of Tua.

I’m with you. I’ve been banging the Tua drum for a while. Yes, he’s still making some WTF worthy mistakes at times, but he’s also shown in his 3 games so far this year that he’s made some significant strides. He’s physically limited in terms of arm strength and or speed, but there are a bunch of successful QBs that aren’t physical marvels. Yes, the margin for error is smaller and the execution has to be better for Tua to be successful, but you build around that, not say we can’t overcome these physical shortcomings.

It makes no sense to discard Tua at .10 on the dollar and pay full price for a guy that may or may not be available to play this yea for next year. Let someone else take that gamble, sink money and draft picks into the OLine and LBs and figure it out next year.
 

glennhoffmania

essential somewhere
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 25, 2005
8,405,105
NY
I want no part of Watson, if they trade for Watson, it’s my intent to finally be done with this team…
Same here. Even if it wasn't for all of the legal issues if they trade multiple high picks for Watson after drafting Tua I'd be furious and would become less interested. Add in the fact that they'd be doing this to acquire a guy with Watson's baggage and I'd be done. I'm almost there even if the deal doesn't happen. If they think making this trade is fine as long as they can get assurance that Watson won't be suspended and won't be tied up in court defending himself against accusations made by multiple women then it's clear that their priorities are completely fucked.
 

rymflaherty

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2010
3,192
Norfolk
Miami painted themselves into a Deshaun or Tua corner here as well. This upcoming draft class sucks for QBs. Last year’s was pretty loaded. If they were going to move on from Tua, it would have been last year or after next season.
And I’m not even sure how many of those guys I’d take over Tua at the moment. Lawrence is a given. But other than that…I don’t think anyone else is a no-brainer.
Jones has been impressive, so maybe he should be as well, and I simply don’t want to admit it. But i don’t have conviction that Fields, Wilson or Lance is going to be considerably better. If you put any of those guys on Miami, I feel like it would be a lateral move in terms of my optimism and concerns.
You can throw Mills into that group if you want. The fact that I saw reports saying the Texans prefer Mills to Tua really boggles my mind.

At the moment I really regret my renewed investment in this team, this season, because it’s added nothing but disappointment and agitation into my life.
 

sodenj5

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
5,169
CT
And I’m not even sure how many of those guys I’d take over Tua at the moment. Lawrence is a given. But other than that…I don’t think anyone else is a no-brainer.
Jones has been impressive, so maybe he should be as well, and I simply don’t want to admit it. But i don’t have conviction that Fields, Wilson or Lance is going to be considerably better. If you put any of those guys on Miami, I feel like it would be a lateral move in terms of my optimism and concerns.
You can throw Mills into that group if you want. The fact that I saw reports saying the Texans prefer Mills to Tua really boggles my mind.

At the moment I really regret my renewed investment in this team, this season, because it’s added nothing but disappointment and agitation into my life.
I don’t really think Tua and Mac are that dissimilar where you’re gaining anything by swapping one for the other. I’m a jaded homer, but I’ll take Tua’s pocket mobility and ability to make some plays with his legs over whatever Mac has. Maybe more size and durability and less head-scratching turnovers.

But you’re largely right. Aside from Lawrence, who Miami didn’t have a shot at, and obviously Herbert, who Miami did have a shot at, most of these guys are treading the same water. Fields, Lance, Wilson. They’re all probably physically more talented than Tua and maybe you’re willing to take that long term gamble, but I don’t think you’re generating a net gain significantly larger than what Miami already has.

Tua is also not getting a lot of benefit of the doubt right now because Miami is losing. Almost the opposite of last year where he looked shaky and Miami was winning, he’s thrown for 600+ yards and 6 TDs the last two weeks, given Miami a late 4th quarter lead in both games, and has taken 2 L’s.