Doc Rivers fired as 76ers coach

[JakeRae]

Would you say Doc is a better coach that Joe M.?

I can't say that I could really tell one way or the other, but I do like the culture the C's have built far more than Philly 's.

I think Joe Mazzulla has more talent as a coach but is very early in realizing that talent and has a lot still to learn. I thought going into this past series there wasn’t a huge coaching edge either way and don’t really think differently in hindsight. So, for today I think it is pretty close.

That said, if I were a GM hiring to fill a vacancy, I’d pick Mazzulla over Doc based on what I know and the fact that I think it all points to Mazzulla likely being a much better coach than Doc going forward. The biggest reasons for that are:

• Mazzulla seems to recognize that he still has a lot to learn. That’s a really really important attribute.
• Mazzulla tells his players he loves them and to trust their talent when they or the team struggle. Doc throws his players under the bus in the same situation.
• All indications are that Mazzulla has a lot more ability at designing successful systems on both ends of the ball. Doc has never seemed like that guy. One doesn’t need to be to succeed as a head coach, but it is a tightrope walk if you aren’t because your schemes depend on hiring and retaining excellent assistants.

 

[brendan f]

Doc was destined to get canned after they lost, but to me the most damning indictment against him was publicly crapping on Simmons and throwing him to the wolves. That also, arguably, diminished his value further, so it hurt the team, too. Now, maybe Simmons was too far gone at that point to be rescued, but it seemed harsh at the time. Given Simmons' plummet, though, Morey turning a completely lost player into Harden was pure wizardry.

But most of these narratives people have are fickle and creations of the mind. If the Sixers had won game 6, the narrative would have been Embiid has taken the next step, and Doc has exorcised his demons in late series situations (at least some of them). We'd have pages upon pages on this board about how overrated Tatum is, how we have a coach who doesn't know X's and O's, and a roster that needs new faces. Hell, even on a Celtics podcast John Karalis spent almost an entire episode trashing the Sixers and their star players rather than focusing on the accomplishments of his own team.

The Sixers played well. Doc coached fine. Four minutes changed everything.

 

[OurF'ingCity]

Honestly it would probably look better since he was the favorite in the majority of those games. Iirc, he went 7 games in many series those years as favorites. Since then he has won as an underdog as a relatively astronomical rate. For example, winning 2 of 4 in Boston as a significant underdog.

It is kind of funny that people throw around the "Doc in close-out games" stat given, as you say, that at least recently his teams have generally been underdogs in the big series. The fact that he's even been in that many close-out games at all is arguably a good thing, not a bad thing.

The fact that he was fired after they took the Cs to seven games means that he was always going to be fired after this series unless they won, which does seem a little unfair given that the Sixers weren't favored. Seems basically like frustration at the ownership/GM level at just never being able to get over that hump and having to take it out on someone.

 

[tims4wins]

Doc was destined to get canned after they lost, but to me the most damning indictment against him was publicly crapping on Simmons and throwing him to the wolves. That also, arguably, diminished his value further, so it hurt the team, too. Now, maybe Simmons was too far gone at that point to be rescued, but it seemed harsh at the time. Given Simmons' plummet, though, Morey turning a completely lost player into Harden was pure wizardry.

But most of these narratives people have are fickle and creations of the mind. If the Sixers had won game 6, the narrative would have been Embiid has taken the next step, and Doc has exorcised his demons in late series situations (at least some of them). We'd have pages upon pages on this board about how overrated Tatum is, how we have a coach who doesn't know X's and O's, and a roster that needs new faces. Hell, even on a Celtics podcast John Karalis spent almost an entire episode trashing the Sixers and their star players rather than focusing on the accomplishments of his own team.

The Sixers played well. Doc coached fine. Four minutes changed everything.

So well put

 

[lovegtm]

Simmons and Fultz are both more than defensible, both were very close to consensus #1 prospects (Tatum was actually 4th behind Ball and Jackson on the consensus average) addressed in the other thread, but the Bridges trade was totally defensible, 10 for 16 and a future 1st (and Bridges really wasn't some star until very recently, just a solid role player). Okafor was a sneaky terrible pick. Even the Butler thing, it was a poor call, but.... it looks worse in retrospect because Simmons flamed out and MIA built around Butler's inability to shoot 3s. Philly was right that Simmons/Embiid/Butler probably doesn't work at all on offense, but the moves they made based on that were dumb, and Simmons turned out not to be the foundational piece.

The real problem with the Bridges trade was that the pick Philly got was Miami's 2021 unprotected first, which was the best unprotected pick floating out there for awhile (this was pre-Butler).

They ended up cashing it in to max Harris, which was panned at the time and looks worse now, but the Bridges trade was widely seen as a big win, especially in the post-Nets era when no one was trading unprotecteds.

 

[brendan f]

The fact that he was fired after they took the Cs to seven games means that he was always going to be fired after this series unless they won, which does seem a little unfair given that the Sixers weren't favored. Seems basically like frustration at the ownership/GM level at just never being able to get over that hump and having to take it out on someone.

It didn't help that they lost when they got up 3-2 because that propels the narrative that Doc's a choker (his teams are 16-33 in series in which they have three wins in a seven game playoff series).

 

[jezza1918]

It is kind of funny that people throw around the "Doc in close-out games" stat given, as you say, that at least recently his teams have generally been underdogs in the big series. The fact that he's even been in that many close-out games at all is arguably a good thing, not a bad thing.

The fact that he was fired after they took the Cs to seven games means that he was always going to be fired after this series unless they won, which does seem a little unfair given that the Sixers weren't favored. Seems basically like frustration at the ownership/GM level at just never being able to get over that hump and having to take it out on someone.

I think you can spin a certain W/L record in close out games in a lot of different ways, but (and it appears my original stat was wrong), per @brendan f above, going 16-33 in series in which they have three wins in a seven game playoff series is tough to spin in a way that nets a positive result.
And I agree he was always going to be fired if they lost this series, but as my first post stated, I do think it was just one (smaller) piece of the pie.

 

[Euclis20]

There are some mitigating factors (his two stars have a history of underperforming when the lights are brightest, they were both hurting to various degrees, they were playing a superior team, they were a few minutes away from pulling off the upset in game 6), but the degree to which some you are excusing Doc for his team's historically terrible game 7 performance is odd to see. Sure, it was worse in his first year (when they had the 1 seed and lost to a very flawed Hawks team, followed by very loudly throwing their 2nd best player under the bus), but the coach bears some responsibility for how they handled their game 6 loss (complaining about the refs right up until the start of game 7), and how they came out after halftime of game 7 like they were already wearing their cement shoes.

 

[shoelace]

The Sixers played well. Doc coached fine. Four minutes changed everything.

I agree. We have to assume that Doc was fired to appease Harden and that part of Morey's pitch must be to allow Harden to help pick the next coach. And, I'm not sure they're entirely wrong to do that, though others will disagree. This franchise is in a really tough spot in any direction they choose to go, but firing the coach if it means resigning Harden and trying to see if you can spin off Harris's expiring contract and maybe Maxey for a better 3rd star fit or whatever isn't insane. At 29, with his injury history, I'm not sure Embiid is the kind of player you can wait to rebuild around and they don't really have the assets for a quick reset with new stars to surround Embiid.

As others have said, Doc is probably best suited to coach a young team on the rise at this point in his career, though who knows if he actually wants to do that. I can't see some team looking to punch it in for a title turning to him at this point, he's blown that chance enough times. He was great with that 2018-2019 Clippers team.

 

[luckiestman]

Here is how I rate coaches: do they piss me off when we play them because I think they’re doing a good job.

Doc, I felt the opposite. Seeing Doc made my confidence in the Cs grow.

Spo: just die bro, our guys are way better than yours , yet somehow the Heat are in it

Nurse: this guy, really hate playing this guy. Want to smack his smug fucking face. Would love it if he coached the Cs

Monte: don’t watch enough. The run with the Suns was impressive but they should have won the title against Bucks.

Bud: thought he was very impressive with Hawks and won title. Good to even great regular season coach but don’t fear him.

 

[tims4wins]

Here is how I rate coaches: do they piss me off when we play them because I think they’re doing a good job.

Doc, I felt the opposite. Seeing Doc made my confidence in the Cs grow.

Spo: just die bro, our guys are way better than yours , yet somehow the Heat are in it

Nurse: this guy, really hate playing this guy. Want to smack his smug fucking face. Would love it if he coached the Cs

Monte: don’t watch enough. The run with the Suns was impressive but they should have won the title against Bucks.

Bud: thought he was very impressive with Hawks and won title. Good to even great regular season coach but don’t fear him.

Spo > Nurse > Monte > Doc

 

[luckiestman]

Spo > Nurse > Monte > Doc

I think their are tiers to this. The players dominate the game, this isn’t the NFL. So it’s three tiers

Rare: Get the most out of the players. Players are actually better because you’re the coach.

Most: Players play to their talent level.

Rare: Actively hurt the squad

 

[tims4wins]

I think their are tiers to this. The players dominate the game, this isn’t the NFL. So it’s three tiers

Rare: Get the most out of the players. Players are actually better because you’re the coach.

Most: Players play to their talent level.

Rare: Actively hurt the squad

100% agree. Who else is in the 1st tier aside from Spo??

 

[bosockboy]

100% agree. Who else is in the 1st tier aside from Spo??

Pop and Kerr.

 

[Ale Xander]

I think you can spin a certain W/L record in close out games in a lot of different ways, but (and it appears my original stat was wrong), per @brendan f above, going 16-33 in series in which they have three wins in a seven game playoff series is tough to spin in a way that nets a positive result.
And I agree he was always going to be fired if they lost this series, but as my first post stated, I do think it was just one (smaller) piece of the pie.

But can’t the 16-33 be counter-weighed by his undefeated record in series in which his teams win 4 games?

 

[luckiestman]

100% agree. Who else is in the 1st tier aside from Spo??

I thought Nurse with Toronto was. Something weird happened with Siakam, then they were in Florida so idk. Just how I felt when we played them. Thought Stevens was.Thibs kind of is but it’s got kind of a short shelf life I would think.

I don’t actually agree that Kerr is. He might be but his team has been so loaded that it is tough to tell. He did make nice adjustments for their first title and against us. The Durant titles were showing up. He also blew 3-1 to a worse team.

Pop but not sure he is young enough for us to see it matter again.

D’Antoni might be. That Rockets team had no business almost beating the Warriors yet they probably do if not for CP3 hammy. Even with non-Melo Knicks (Linsanity). And that Suns team. He is more situational but I think he’s good.

 

[ElUno20]

Have you guys heard of Ty Lue?

I'm here for all the Doc slander although this firing feels more like Morey covering his ass (and giving Harden a crippling contract).

 

[EvilEmpire]

Thibs kind of is but it’s got kind of a short shelf life I would think.

I like the tiers. Was about to post something similar about Thibs, with the added caveat that he's only tier one with a relatively low-talent team. And obviously yes on the shelf line.

He'll raise the floor on a team without big stars.

 

[luckiestman]

Have you guys heard of Ty Lue?

I'm here for all the Doc slander although this firing feels more like Morey covering his ass (and giving Harden a crippling contract).

I don’t watch a lot of Clippers so don’t have much of an opinion. Do you like him? I know him more from his playing days and Cavs

 

[dhellers]

100% agree. Who else is in the 1st tier aside from Spo??

Too soon to give Mike Brown some serious cred?

 

[brendan f]

As others have said, Doc is probably best suited to coach a young team on the rise at this point in his career

Disagree. Doc has always done better with known talent as opposed to talent that needs to be brought along. He has generally had no interest in young teams; he doesn't want to make connections with players. He wants to win. I'd much rather have Monty for an up and coming team.

 

[nighthob]

I like Rivers well enough. But the fact is that he built his brand on being a players' coach. That worked really well with the children of the 80s and 90s that remembered Doc the player. Not so well now with kids who only know Doc the coach. And at 62 he's just not going to magically connect with the current generation.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Simmons and Fultz are both more than defensible, both were very close to consensus #1 prospects (Tatum was actually 4th behind Ball and Jackson on the consensus average)

Agree that the picks were defensible but the way PHI treated Fultz was pretty indefensible as well. Most teams err on the side of coddling #1 draft picks; somehow, PHI thought tough love would work. And then getting rid of him for nothing (I understand they needed the cap space) turns out to be not such a great move.

I have no idea, but I know that BOS has way more talent than PHI and that a lot of Joe M.'s job is to basically get out of the way and let them perform. Other teams in these playoffs have had to make radical adjustments, playing guys like Lonnie Walker IV or whatever, and BOS' big adjustment was just going back to their old starting lineup (not a criticism, just saying not a difficult move to figure out). I would say that from what I saw, Rivers outperformed Mazzulla in that series overall.

What adjustments did Doc make? Joe not only put TL back in the starting lineup but the Cs also changed up their defenses on Harden and decided to leave the rest of PHI (except Maxey) open for 3Ps.

 

[jon abbey]

What adjustments did Doc make? Joe not only put TL back in the starting lineup but the Cs also changed up their defenses on Harden and decided to leave the rest of PHI (except Maxey) open for 3Ps.

I didn't watch the series so closely, but just the bottom line of winning game 1 in BOS with no Embiid and winning two more games after that.

 

[NomarsFool]

You are all forgetting that the Sixers lost after falling behind two games to nothing, winning the next three, and then choking in B2B close out games /s

 

[Saints Rest]

I like Rivers well enough. But the fact is that he built his brand on being a players' coach. That worked really well with the children of the 80s and 90s that remembered Doc the player. Not so well now with kids who only know Doc the coach. And at 62 he's just not going to magically connect with the current generation.

I think it's time for Doc to take the Hubie Brown path of 20 years of being THE color guy.

 

[Bergs]

Doc was destined to get canned after they lost, but to me the most damning indictment against him was publicly crapping on Simmons and throwing him to the wolves. That also, arguably, diminished his value further, so it hurt the team, too. Now, maybe Simmons was too far gone at that point to be rescued, but it seemed harsh at the time. Given Simmons' plummet, though, Morey turning a completely lost player into Harden was pure wizardry.

But most of these narratives people have are fickle and creations of the mind. If the Sixers had won game 6, the narrative would have been Embiid has taken the next step, and Doc has exorcised his demons in late series situations (at least some of them). We'd have pages upon pages on this board about how overrated Tatum is, how we have a coach who doesn't know X's and O's, and a roster that needs new faces. Hell, even on a Celtics podcast John Karalis spent almost an entire episode trashing the Sixers and their star players rather than focusing on the accomplishments of his own team.

The Sixers played well. Doc coached fine. Four minutes changed everything.

So well put

This is a great post, and lord knows I'm guilty of a lot of it.

 

[lovegtm]

You are all forgetting that the Sixers lost after falling behind two games to nothing, winning the next three, and then choking in B2B close out games /s

Series was 1-1 fwiw. How soon we forget The James Harden Game....

 

[MyDaughterLovesTomGordon]

Series was 1-1 fwiw. How soon we forget The James Harden Game....

C’mon. They used the /s sarcasm sign AND the sunglasses face to demonstrate they were joking. It’s a Doris joke.

 

[lovegtm]

C’mon. They used the /s sarcasm sign AND the sunglasses face to demonstrate they were joking. It’s a Doris joke.

Ah, got it.

 

[joe dokes]

Honestly it would probably look better since he was the favorite in the majority of those games. Iirc, he went 7 games in many series those years as favorites. Since then he has won as an underdog as a relatively astronomical rate. For example, winning 2 of 4 in Boston as a significant underdog.

Maybe I totally misunderstand gambling (which makes it good that I don't do it), but I always thought that betting lines (the thing that makes a team an "underdog") have little to do with "who they think is going to win," but are instead the best number to get gambling fans of both teams to bet in equal amounts, because they *always* (figuratively speaking) bet on "their team."
If I'm wrong, tell me. But if I'm not, then references to underdog status as a way to assess a coach's past performance seem misplaced.

 

[bosockboy]

Doc will always have his Top 15 status. It was absurd he made this list.

https://www.nba.com/news/nba-75-top-15-coaches-league-history

 

[jezza1918]

But can’t the 16-33 be counter-weighed by his undefeated record in series in which his teams win 4 games?

Doesn't the 16 wins reflect that aspect of it though? Below is the tweet that I originally saw. What that tells me is Doc has coached 49 potential close out games (in 7 game series, not the older 5 game series), and in those 49 games his teams have won 16, lost 33. As a reply says, Pop is 33-14 in those games, Spo is 21-11.Our own Joe Mazz is now 2-1. I think I misread @brendan f when he was posting above. The fact that they were underdogs and lost the last couple years is certainly a mitigating factor - but bigger perspective is that under Doc they've failed to move past the 2nd round, and under Doc Embiid's post season production is inferior to his regular season production (the last 2 years somewhat dramatically). As I stated yesterday I certainly don't think that all falls on Doc, but I still certainly understand the Sixers FO wanting to try someone else at this point.
View: https://twitter.com/MikePradaNBA/status/1657859045787684866?s=20

 

[tims4wins]

Doesn't the 16 wins reflect that aspect of it though? Below is the tweet that I originally saw. What that tells me is Doc has coached 49 potential close out games (in 7 game series, not the older 5 game series), and in those 49 games his teams have won 16, lost 33. As a reply says, Pop is 33-14 in those games, Spo is 21-11.Our own Joe Mazz is now 2-1. I think I misread @brendan f when he was posting above. The fact that they were underdogs and lost the last couple years is certainly a mitigating factor - but bigger perspective is that under Doc they've failed to move past the 2nd round, and under Doc Embiid's post season production is inferior to his regular season production (the last 2 years somewhat dramatically). As I stated yesterday I certainly don't think that all falls on Doc, but I still certainly understand the Sixers FO wanting to try someone else at this point.
View: https://twitter.com/MikePradaNBA/status/1657859045787684866?s=20

Off memory, even in the 2008 title season:
1st round: up 3-2, went 1-1
2nd round: up 3-2, went 1-1
3rd round: up 3-2, went 1-0
4th round: up 3-1, went 1-1

So 4-3 even in a championship year. 12-30 in all other years (.285)

 

[Red Right Ankle]

Pretty sure Ale was making a joke, not a serious point.

 

[jezza1918]

Pretty sure Ale was making a joke, not a serious point.

Damnit. Probably true. I realized I had kind of screwed up that stat in a previous post so then proceeded to do what I do best...overthink!

 

[Al Zarilla]

If Philly had literally done nothing the instant that they drafted Embiid they'd be better off than they are today. Yet they keep on making big move after big move.

What's the old saying? Don't throw good money at bad money?

Don't throw good money after bad. ''Twas my father in law's favorite expression.

 

[Auger34]

Pretty sure Ale was making a joke, not a serious point.

I think we can upgrade that to 100% a joke.

 

[Royal Reader]

The real problem with the Bridges trade was that the pick Philly got was Miami's 2021 unprotected first, which was the best unprotected pick floating out there for awhile (this was pre-Butler).

They ended up cashing it in to max Harris, which was panned at the time and looks worse now, but the Bridges trade was widely seen as a big win, especially in the post-Nets era when no one was trading unprotecteds.

The Sixers' experience makes me appreciate Danny more. Every move they made was defensible by the league/media consensus, and I'd argue that everything but the Bridges/Smith trade was conventional wisdom. (Maybe in retrospect the Embiid pick was gutsy given his injury, but I remember that he was looking like the consensus #1 until he got hurt, and was the guy that everyone in the Port Cellar was praying would somehow fall to Boston). And yet they ended up caught in a slightly fancier version of the purgatory they processed to get out of.

Had 4 top 3 picks in four years. Unambiguously blew a #1 and a #3. Hard to grade the Simmons pick given how weird that guy's timeline is, but it's not a success. It would have been bold to can Brett Brown and move Simmons to keep Butler, but it's the obvious right move in hindsight and the inflection point that leads to the Harris acquisition once they know Jimmy's walking.

Meanwhile Danny makes non-consensus picks twice in a row in a year where the 'obvious' picks are Dragan Bender, then Markelle Fultz.

 

[BigSoxFan]

The Sixers' experience makes me appreciate Danny more. Every move they made was defensible by the league/media consensus, and I'd argue that everything but the Bridges/Smith trade was conventional wisdom. (Maybe in retrospect the Embiid pick was gutsy given his injury, but I remember that he was looking like the consensus #1 until he got hurt, and was the guy that everyone in the Port Cellar was praying would somehow fall to Boston). And yet they ended up caught in a slightly fancier version of the purgatory they processed to get out of.

Had 4 top 3 picks in four years. Unambiguously blew a #1 and a #3. Hard to grade the Simmons pick given how weird that guy's timeline is, but it's not a success. It would have been bold to can Brett Brown and move Simmons to keep Butler, but it's the obvious right move in hindsight and the inflection point that leads to the Harris acquisition once they know Jimmy's walking.

Meanwhile Danny makes non-consensus picks twice in a row in a year where the 'obvious' picks are Dragan Bender, then Markelle Fultz.

Yup. Ainge deserves a statue if this Celtics team wins it all. His 2007-2017 stretch was just an absolute master class in GMing. He started it all in 2004 when he drafted Al Jefferson. Without Big Al, you don’t get KG. He then successfully convinces KG and gets Ray Allen after we got boned in 2007 lottery. He snags Rondo when Phoenix was being cheap. Perk was a late first. He built a juggernaut so quickly, obviously had the benefit of Pierce but things in 2004-2006 weren’t looking good at all.

Then, once the Big 3 had wrapped up, he destroys Billy King in a trade and sets up the next decade, culminating with the Tatum heist. He may have gotten too picky with the SAC/MEM picks but we only had them because of his shrewd trades.

And I haven’t even mentioned IT, luring Hayward/Horford, etc. And he lured Brad from Butler to cap it all off.

Took a gamble on Kyrie that didn’t work out but that’s a trade that was worth the risk. And he got very unlucky with the Hayward injury.

I really want Ainge to have his fingerprints on 2 different title teams. He deserves it.

 

[BostonFan23]

I remember hearing that Wyc promised to retire Ainge's 44 if he won a title, and he did, but not sure what happened there. If they win won this year, he definitely deserves a good chunk of credit.

But I grade his tenure as like four different periods:

'03-'08 - A. From the rebuild to the cap positioning to the flurry of movement in '07 to the buyout market at the end of the season...almost perfect
'08-'12 - C. Didn't do a great job surrounding Pierce/KG/Rondo/Ray so they could win another one. His hands were tied in some ways, but I think he could've done more.
'13-'18 - A+. Perfect. This goes right up to the Kyrie deal. That's the pivot point of everything.
'18-'21 - C-. Didn't do a great job getting that team over the hump and making some hard decisions.

May be swayed a bit on any of the grades, but that's generally how I see it. Overall, a fantastic, fantastic tenure for an under-appreciated Boston sports figure.

 

[bosockboy]

I remember hearing that Wyc promised to retire Ainge's 44 if he won a title, and he did, but not sure what happened there. If they win won this year, he definitely deserves a good chunk of credit.

But I grade his tenure as like four different periods:

'03-'08 - A. From the rebuild to the cap positioning to the flurry of movement in '07 to the buyout market at the end of the season...almost perfect
'08-'12 - C. Didn't do a great job surrounding Pierce/KG/Rondo/Ray so they could win another one. His hands were tied in some ways, but I think he could've done more.
'13-'18 - A+. Perfect. This goes right up to the Kyrie deal. That's the pivot point of everything.
'18-'21 - C-. Didn't do a great job getting that team over the hump and making some hard decisions.

May be swayed a bit on any of the grades, but that's generally how I see it. Overall, a fantastic, fantastic tenure for an under-appreciated Boston sports figure.

2008-2012 he wins minimum one more if KG doesn’t go down in Salt Lake City. That team started 27-2 and was a top 5 team ever candidate.

 

[NomarsFool]

Took a gamble on Kyrie that didn’t work out but that’s a trade that was worth the risk.

I wouldn't even have called it a gamble at the time. It looked like a fantastic move at the time. Kind of like you can't always predict when an injury becomes a full on inability to play, you can't predict when a player's quirky personality becomes a full on head case.

 

[lexrageorge]

I remember hearing that Wyc promised to retire Ainge's 44 if he won a title, and he did, but not sure what happened there. If they win won this year, he definitely deserves a good chunk of credit.

But I grade his tenure as like four different periods:

'03-'08 - A. From the rebuild to the cap positioning to the flurry of movement in '07 to the buyout market at the end of the season...almost perfect
'08-'12 - C. Didn't do a great job surrounding Pierce/KG/Rondo/Ray so they could win another one. His hands were tied in some ways, but I think he could've done more.
'13-'18 - A+. Perfect. This goes right up to the Kyrie deal. That's the pivot point of everything.
'18-'21 - C-. Didn't do a great job getting that team over the hump and making some hard decisions.

May be swayed a bit on any of the grades, but that's generally how I see it. Overall, a fantastic, fantastic tenure for an under-appreciated Boston sports figure.

The 2008-12 period was first derailed by KG's injury; literally nothing that could have been done to help them in the 2009 playoffs w/o KG. Then got derailed later by the untimely Perkins injury in the 2010 Finals. So I would give him a solid B for that era; I take him down a notch for messing up the Ray Allen situation that caused Ray to sign w/ Miami.

Ainge definitely made some mistakes in the 2019-21 timeframe (needless trade of the Bane pick), but probably give him a B-/C+ overall during that era; injuries did derail his post-Kyrie plan to a degree that was difficult to predict or work around. And he seemed to lose some of the connection with the players and their agents; a more in touch GM would have realize that (a) Kyrie wasn't going to resign; and (b) Anthony Davis would never agree to an extension in Boston. He finally realized (b), but too late to let him dig out from the Kyrie mess.

 

[astrozombie]

I wouldn't even have called it a gamble at the time. It looked like a fantastic move at the time. Kind of like you can't always predict when an injury becomes a full on inability to play, you can't predict when a player's quirky personality becomes a full on head case.

I agree. Kyrie got the exact opportunity he wanted (be the alpha on a playoff team) and unfortunately, failed miserably at it. There was no way of knowing at the time it would pan out that way, since he never got the opportunity. What's even crazier, Brooklyn should have been perfect for him - KD and Harden seem like the exact type of people who don't mind taking a backseat to someone else publicly, even if they are really the ones driving the car. So Kyrie could run around claiming to be the leader of that team (and in fact, the whole franchise!) and really not have to back that up on the court. And he *still* couldn't do that.

 

[Royal Reader]

I wouldn't even have called it a gamble at the time. It looked like a fantastic move at the time. Kind of like you can't always predict when an injury becomes a full on inability to play, you can't predict when a player's quirky personality becomes a full on head case.

I recall a lot of people thinking it was a gamble at the time, but more in a "he's not actually a truly elite guy" way than a "Maybe he turns out to be the basketball version of Antonio Brown" way. Of course, those people were largely also wrong about the risk; IT was basically done, Zizic never amounted to anything and the Brooklyn pick ended up at 8 and became Collin Sexton. With perfect hindsight, the right move was probably to do a smaller move with just the pick? Like idk Jrue or something. Only then you're still left with an injured IT wanting his Brinks truck.

 

[jezza1918]

I think we can upgrade that to 100% a joke.

yes yes and we can upgrade me to being an idiot! I accept it. Just curious, did Celts fans get on Doc much at the time for any specific coaching inadequacies that lead to the 3-2 blown leads vs the lakers in 2010 and the Heat a couple years later? Or was it more chalked up to some of the injury stuff?

 

[Royal Reader]

yes yes and we can upgrade me to being an idiot! I accept it. Just curious, did Celts fans get on Doc much at the time for any specific coaching inadequacies that lead to the 3-2 blown leads vs the lakers in 2010 and the Heat a couple years later? Or was it more chalked up to some of the injury stuff?

My best recollection is the 2010 one was put on the Perk injury and the refs in game 7. 2012 I think we mostly just accepted that the team was aging and Bron was THAT good.

 

[tims4wins]

My best recollection is the 2010 one was put on the Perk injury and the refs in game 7. 2012 I think we mostly just accepted that the team was aging and Bron was THAT good.

Agreed, although the Celts did have a 7 point halftime lead in game 7, only to get blown off the court in the second half, 55-35

 

[BigSoxFan]

Agreed, although the Celts did have a 7 point halftime lead in game 7, only to get blown off the court in the second half, 55-35

Yeah, we knew that halftime lead wasn’t holding