There are three Red Sox championship teams since 2004, which one is unlikable?
And if ARod was part of the 04 and 07, he’d have been a god in this town. Don’t fool yourself.
Do you want LeBron on the Celtics?
- Thread starter Lose Remerswaal
- Start date
And if ARod was part of the 04 and 07, he’d have been a god in this town. Don’t fool yourself.
Yep – and don’t forget how likable he became the minute he left the Yankees.
I’m pretty convinced at this point that Stevens can coach up almost anyone to be a great supporting cast member – so while I love this group of guys, I wouldn’t *really* miss any of them barring Tatum to get Lebron and that’s only because he seems on track to be a top 5 player in the league.
I am a very casual basketball fan, so take all of this with a grain of salt. But I always thought the style of basketball that Lebron teams played was more due to the talent around him. He's a very cerebral player who constantly among the league leaders in assists, even when surrounded by bums. What about him suggests he'd be unable to fit into pretty much any offense? And I'm very skeptical he'd be unwilling to fit in, especially coming to an established very good team with a coach like Stevens.
The teams may not be unlikable but the championship teams have certainly had unlikable players for various reasons both while playing and afterwards- Papelbon, Schilling, Daisuke, Tavarez, Ellsbury, Manny, Ray Allen, Tim Thomas.
Not going to find a perfect example as an all time great in a sport rarely becomes available.
Some people don't/didn't care for him. They remember him as the guy who forced his way out of Boston with "poor performance" and "Manny being Manny."
edit: And that whole DV thing in 2011, PEDs.
Some people don't like every player (except Mookie). But I don't think, generally speaking, that Manny was considered unlikable here.
You are correct. The anti-Manny stuff didn't really start until around the time that he left. That 2004 team in particular was a bunch of likeable kooks, and he was right in the middle of that.
I think that this thread is what happens when one region gets a shitload of championships in a short period of time.
I still find it very weird that people have such dislike for Lebron. The guy is the best player in the world, busts his hump to win, really gives a shit about winning, and has never clubbed any seals. But different strokes, I guess.
Last edited:
2004 broke the mold, love them!
2007 and 2013 felt like gravy, and liked them a whole bunch.
Senior Octobre is the common thread in all those championships, and I'm perfectly happy having him as my god.
We're getting off topic. No thanks to the Lebron Circus Show.
Absolutely. The only real caveat is that I wouldn't want to tear out the core of the current and future team to do it. Lebron the player is one of the couple of guys who has some basis to claim that he is the best best player ever. His on court persona can seem selfish and whiny at times, but his game isn't. And I think, if here, he'd appreciate the level of talent and commitment around him. He's also an admirable guy in his off court life, doing and investing a lot in goos causes.
Were you disappointed by the 2007-08 title, whose core wasn't home grown?
Well, that's the only caveat for me.
Two things:
1. Yes. There are always going to be players on a championship team that you don't like, that's kind of obvious right. A team is a Facts of Life situation, you take the good, you take the bad. What I was saying was which championship TEAM did you dislike? I would wager that none fall into that category. Even Marlins fans love the 1997 Marlin team.
2. Just about every player on that list that you created were loved on their championship team. They didn't get to pariah standards by some fans until after they left Boston. Even Daisuke wasn't hated, he was just frustrating as hell to watch. And of the eight you listed, only Schilling is truly repugnant. Most of the others are people who made business decisions that you didn't like.
People are weird. I'm guessing a lot of the people who voted no would be the first ones pumping their fists as the Cs go 80-2 and sweep through the finals. LeBron with the current Celtics would be an all-time great team and would be celebrated as such throughout history. I'd be for seeing that.
This. Players become infinitely more likeable if they win championships for our team. Papelbon, Foulke, Manny, Millar, Damon, etc. would have been very differently remembered if they didn't win championships.
The anti-Manny stuff started way before 2004. If you recall, Theo put him on waivers and people were applauding Theo for showing Manny that no one else would take him and his contract. As I said before, Manny would have been remembered very differently in this town had he not been part of a championship team.
Well sure, but that wasn't the question being asked. I voted "no", but its not like I wouldn't be rooting for him as a Celt. Frankly, except for his stay in MIA, I've always been a bit of a fan. I just want to see a full season from THIS group we have now.
You'd get to see how the other guys without LBJ would play probably 20 minutes a game. You'd really turn down a chance at forming an all-time great team?
I know it's a just a discussion question but sign me up and I'd be watching the various specials about this team until I stopped breathing.
I have come around on LeBron. I've seen him play in person around 20 times, from the beginning as summer league in Boston, to the 2007 playoffs, where he passed the ball in crunch time in Game 7, to his scintillating play in the recent ECF. I used to feel that there was something missing in his make-up, that he wasn't a winner, but in reality he was just working his way through the steps a mega-star has to go through. He didn't have the teammates that Bird, Magic, and Michael had when they were establishing their stardom. LeBron got those teammates in Miami, and did get his titles. He is an amazing basketball player, probably the best all around player of all time, and I'd like to see him play on an actual team, with an actual coach, as he ends his amazing career.
If we could swap LeBron for Hayward, and he and Kyrie were great with re-uniting, (both very doubtful) the Celtics would be in the running for best team of all time. That would be an amazing team to watch. LeBron on a team with the Celtics' talent would be a joy to watch every night. Hopefully, he would facilitate for much of the game, instead of the iso ball he played in Cleveland.
If we could swap LeBron for Hayward, and he and Kyrie were great with re-uniting, (both very doubtful) the Celtics would be in the running for best team of all time. That would be an amazing team to watch. LeBron on a team with the Celtics' talent would be a joy to watch every night. Hopefully, he would facilitate for much of the game, instead of the iso ball he played in Cleveland.
I didn't say that he was perfect or didn't have his moments. Loads of guys from all three of those teams had their diva periods or worse (remember Pedro v. Jimy).
But he was loved. And he won. Perhaps one was a major contributor to the other, but that's irrelevant.
We spiked the football when Bay was brought in to replace him because that's what we do. All the traveling secretary stuff came out, and we said "fuck that guy". Foulke and a few others were maligned as well...but only afterwards.
Nobody wins championships with 25 monks (or 15 or 53). If there's a guy out there who's truly a bad guy, I get why folks aren't interested. Otherwise, it seems like we just don't value championships around here anymore. Or more accurately perhaps, we have forgotten what a long drought feels like.
And the assault of an old man...
*Edit* Hit enter on this apparently at the same time as the poster above
I don't require a team of humble pie eaters, I don't have a huge issue with LeBron's style (other than when the star treatment has fucked us) and as I said earlier I'd end up as one of those who's pleased as punch to see him throwing it down in green. But I don't understand the anger with people saying they want to beat him. Sure, banners are banners, no question. But come on, winning the ALCS by coming back against Rivera? Beating Kobe and Jackson 4-2? Beating the scary guys is fun.
No doubt being the underdog is fun. But sometimes being the monster is pretty fun too. Up until Super Bowl 42, it was awesome being a fan of a Patriots team that just rolled over other teams. I bet if you were a Celts fan in the 60s or a B's fan in the early 70s, that was a lot of fun too.
If I could wave a magic wand and make all four Boston sports totally dominant forever, I would do it in a cocaine heartbeat. The 86 Cs and 2007 Pats (until the abortion in the desert) were my favorite Boston sports seasons ever. The 04 Sox ending was what it was, but there's nothing like rooting for a team that is clearly the best team in the sport, and that often totally annihilates the opposition. Similarly, I think my favorite single title winning game was the Cs beat down over the Lakers in 08. Sure, other championships have meant more to me, but the pure pleasure that was that entire fucking game is unmatched for me.
I understand where the no voters are coming from better now, thanks.
Nothing in sports will beat the euphoria of that 7 game run, starting in game four of the 2004 ALCS. It was so unbelievably unlikely and it happened anyway. On a far lesser scale, SB XXXVI ranks on that meter.
But yeah, that the clincher beatdown of the 2008 Lakers was extremely satisfying as well. Lowest blood pressure in a clinching game ever lol.
Nothing in sports will beat the euphoria of that 7 game run, starting in game four of the 2004 ALCS. It was so unbelievably unlikely and it happened anyway. On a far lesser scale, SB XXXVI ranks on that meter.
But yeah, that the clincher beatdown of the 2008 Lakers was extremely satisfying as well. Lowest blood pressure in a clinching game ever lol.
I hear what you and joe dokes are saying and I'm sure Lebron could adapt and be successful within any system he wanted to. There is literally nothing he can't do on the court, but I'm not clear what he would do. I've yet to see him make a choice that wasn't about his immediate reward even when his unwillingness to commit beyond one year and forcing Cleveland to mortgage everything ended up costing them Kyrie (my opinion) and the chance to win another ring.
The players he is surrounded with are largely the ones he chose, and the choices he has made are all about Lebron and 'right now', to the long term detriment of the organization. If you need to make a devil's bargain for your ring, like Cleveland and Miami did, then sure roll the dice.
edited...My position is the Celtics are set up for sustained championship contention without him, and I think its a better path.
What Devil's Bargain?
- Miami got two titles and with better breaks could have had two more. Miami wasn't going to win a title without LeBron. And they wouldn't have gotten free agents like Ray Allen without LeBron.
- Cleveland got a title, should have had a second without the miserable injury luck that made Dellavadova the #2 after LeBron. And if Durant hadn't been a complete bandwagon, probably would have had another title or two. And they traded what? Andrew Wiggins? Is he really the future of a title-contending team? The top 10 protected first round pick used on Korver? I guess you could say Kyrie, because even though Kyrie forced the trade it was because he didn't want to be in LeBron's shadow. Maybe one of the Jay's will want to be The Man and break up the dynasty? It seems hard to argue that the probability of that happening outweighs the probability that LeBron gets you an extra title or two.
Moreover, who can honestly say that the Celtics next year beat the Warriors? I think they'll be a lot better than the 2018 Cavs, but the 2018 Cavs were far, far short of beating the Warriors.
The celtics are a team with 4, maybe 5 top 20 players. They don't have a true alpha. Even the Ubuntu Celtics of 2008 had an alpha. So the best LeBron-less scenario is "Tatum develops into a true alpha and leads a bunch of other great players to a championship after the Warriors dynasty disintegrates." But I don't see how shipping out Kyrie for LeBron alters that scenario. It just gives you a couple titles before Tatum reaches his true potential.
Lock this gawd awful thread.
Santa Bron isn't coming to Boston with a sleigh full of championships.
Santa Bron isn't coming to Boston with a sleigh full of championships.
They could more easily have two fewer. If the Celtics close out a 3-2 series lead at home in 2012, and if Bosh doesn't snag an offensive rebound in 2013, they're 0-4. And neither of their two losses (spankings by the 2011 Mavs and 2014 Spurs) were that close to wins.
In a sense, the Warriors "should" be 4-0 by virtue of being the much better team in all four seasons (much better regular season net ratings in a tougher conference in each season). But 3-1 — with three Warrior wipeouts and one narrow Cavs win — is what it is. The Cavs don't get “should haves” for losing Irving and Love in 2015 any more than the Warriors get them in 2016 for losing Draymond and Bogut, and playing with a hobbled Curry and Iguodala.
Or Durant could have stayed in OKC and joined Westbrook, Oladipo, Adams, Kanter, Roberson, McDermott et al. and wrecked LeBron and the Cavs in the finals in a similar manner.
Of course I don’t disagree that LeBron is amazing; just clarifying the historical record. On topic: I don’t think it’s out of the question that the Celtics are as good or better next year with 26 year-old Kyrie than they would be with 34 year-old LeBron. (Plus, they’re not getting LeBron, so ah well).
Just as a point of clarification on the intensity of @OnWisc 's intensity as a sports fan in the '90s, I would just like to point out that after watching The Program, Mr. Wisc directed me to put his car into neutral and steer as he pushed it around the Alewife parking lot to blow off exuberant steam before driving to wherever the hell we were going.
This is just data.
So far, so good. The whole “LeBron is GM, coach, and stat analyst!!!” thing is way overrated. The bigger problem is the steady stream of 100+ game seasons.
I can. Golden State won’t know what hit them when Boston closes them out in six next year.
You can rest easy, Boston is being led by one of the best closers in the NBA. And one that can take it easy for the first 43 minutes of the game as Hayward, Tatum, and Brown shoulder the offensive load then.
Apologies, wasn't meant to criticize your concept of the thread.
It just devolved into which Sox Championship team was least likable? ARod hyperbola? and Manny's not so greatest moments...
When those three things happen, on a hoops forum, its time to lock it up.