Do the Celtics have any players who are very good?
- Thread starter Koufax
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I'd like someone to make the case that they would have been better off with Phil Pressey and won by more. Seriously. People have argued that he is a better player and better fit for this team in this thread. If Pressey had played in lieu of Rondo last night, they would have lost by 10 or more.Kliq said:
Well, if Rondo had played the way he did against Atlanta and Detroit, they would have been better off with Pressey. If Pressey plays the way he did against the Lakers, he won't be in the league much longer.TheDeuce222 said:
Rondo is way more talented than Pressey, obviously. But Rondo's game has been up and down. For the last two games, it's been up, and I hope that continues. Having said that, I still don't like Rondo's defense. He gambles too much and doesn't fight through screens.
So, your argument is that Rondo's game is up and down, while at the same time admitting that Pressey's game is also so up-and-down that he might not even be in the league in a year; yet you still think Pressey is a better fit for the team. It must be really hard to be Brickowski.
I think his point is more along the lines of Rondo only really shows up against the high profile opponents which is a well established critique.
If we're back to 'Rondo only gets up for small games' that seems like a really minor issue because so many stars coast. But if we're talking about Rondo's play, effort aside, being sporadic then I'd ask someone to name 20-30 players in the league who wouldnt look like Jekyll and Hyde while playing with this roster (with Rondo removed). Sure Lebron and Durant would be themselves, but you're 2nd tier stars will look like enigmas too.
FYI - Rondo leads the league in assist per 36 and is 13th in Assist to Turnover
FYI - Rondo leads the league in assist per 36 and is 13th in Assist to Turnover
When Rondo walks the ball up, Pressey is a better fit for this team, because Pressey always pushes the pace. As I've said on a number of occasions, it's run or die with this roster. Some of their 4th quarter woes are because they stop running, trying to bleed clock and nurse a lead. That simply doesn't work for them.
Rondo has pushed the ball much more consistently during the last two games. The open trey by Braadley that iced last night's game was there because Rondo got the ball up the court quickly.
Rondo has pushed the ball much more consistently during the last two games. The open trey by Braadley that iced last night's game was there because Rondo got the ball up the court quickly.
Jumping in a midst the round and round on Rondo, one player who I think will show something in the next couple of years is Powell. He's averaging 22/11 over the 3 games in Maine but watching him during the Fort Wayne game he had a motor that wouldn't quit and was going to the basket at will. It was great to see a big man fake the 3 and drive hard to the rim not shying away from contact or trying to be cute. He may not be a starter, but for a rookie he may be a good piece in a couple seasons.
Powell has looked decent, but I feel like it's important to stay calibrated on what NBDL games look like. There's no such thing as defense and you can immediately pick out an NBA-caliber talent any time they're on the floor because of the huge disparity (any player in the NBA is the best player on a D-League team). I think everyone can agree that Powell's definitely an NBA-caliber talent, the question's just going to be where he ends up falling.04101Seadog said:
I fucking hate my iPad right now. But you get the point.
See the space between the ball and Curry's shooting hand. You can almost draw a straight line down his forearm with the bicep being behind it. Guide hand coming off the ball before full release. It's a beautiful thing
See the space between the ball and Curry's shooting hand. You can almost draw a straight line down his forearm with the bicep being behind it. Guide hand coming off the ball before full release. It's a beautiful thing
Shooting form is an interesting debate. Back in the day before AAU and fancy elite camps, guys shot all sorts of different ways, and some of them were deadly. I think shooting form is something that is really important for guys like Rondo who are looking to improve their shooting to at least league-average levels, then they could think about changing their forms, but some guys are just natural in the way they shoot the ball. No one was telling Peja he couldn't shoot when his form looked like this:
2015 RPM numbers are up, and Sullinger grades out extremely well, as a positive on both sides of the court. He could end up being very good if he keeps this up.
Rondo, 2nd best DRPM on the team 34th in the league.bowiac said:
Congrats also to Evan Turner at 401 out of 420 in DRPM.
luckiestman said:
Thanks for pointing this out which really makes me dubious of this stat. According to this we have 2 of the top 10 centers in the league which is a very important position, yet we are on pace for 30 wins
Not really what it means. What it really means is that they provide a lot of value to the Celtics, if they were on the Spurs they would have a different RPM. It means our small lineup is attrocious (not shocking considering Bass, Pressey and Turner are awful, and Jeff Green ranks poorly on this).wutang112878 said:
Of course I think C is probably at this point the least important position in the league as well. Other than the few elite players C is usually the worst position in a team's starting 5, so the Celtics rank high because our wings bring nothing to the table.
In the way that wutang meant it? He was saying C is important, if we have 2 of the 10 with the most impact why do we suck? the answer of course being that there aren't many impact centers, so being top 10 doesn't mean much.Kliq said:
Though I still would say it is the least important right now. So many teams play small, that PF/C can be pretty interchangeable, true C tend to suffer with high pace, etc.
Back to the thread topic, I like Sullinger, Smart, and Olynyk.
Even though I like him, I think Olynyk is probably a backup PF, though one who will frequently have flashes that make it seem like he should be better. Totally out of place as a starting C, though. If he was 20, I would think there is some growth potential in his game, but at 23 he may improve some but he won't take a leap. Can't really see him working out better than some of Danny's other options with the pick (Anttohgkdndvnvjduenndjosuhfkslalsnfjdlksdwrhghntoyupnfnhskadlksjgpo or even Schroder), I think Danny missed on this one even though I do like Olynyk.
Sully is a good solid player who can rebound, shoot, and pass, though too short to be an impact defender. Could maybe start on the right team (this ain't it).
Smart looks like he may be the real find. Right now, has lots of obvious problems in his game, yet manages to be a difference maker (in a good way) anyway. And unlike Kelly O, he is 20, with room for a leap. Some of his weaknesses will fade away with experience. I don't know what kind of player he will be, but he looks like he'll somehow be a good one.
Even though I like him, I think Olynyk is probably a backup PF, though one who will frequently have flashes that make it seem like he should be better. Totally out of place as a starting C, though. If he was 20, I would think there is some growth potential in his game, but at 23 he may improve some but he won't take a leap. Can't really see him working out better than some of Danny's other options with the pick (Anttohgkdndvnvjduenndjosuhfkslalsnfjdlksdwrhghntoyupnfnhskadlksjgpo or even Schroder), I think Danny missed on this one even though I do like Olynyk.
Sully is a good solid player who can rebound, shoot, and pass, though too short to be an impact defender. Could maybe start on the right team (this ain't it).
Smart looks like he may be the real find. Right now, has lots of obvious problems in his game, yet manages to be a difference maker (in a good way) anyway. And unlike Kelly O, he is 20, with room for a leap. Some of his weaknesses will fade away with experience. I don't know what kind of player he will be, but he looks like he'll somehow be a good one.
IMHO James Young could be the steal of the draft. Natural scorer. So is Marcus Thornton, and if I were a contending team looking to cherry pick the Celtics roster at the deadline, he'd be my number one target. He's the kind of player who can come in for 15-20 minutes and win a playoff game for you.
I think that's a pretty big stretch. There's a good argument that Olynyk is one of the 2 or 3 best players to come out of his draft so far. Obviously he was one of the most advanced guys and the high upside guys might take more than 1.3 years to start breaking out, but.... they also might never reach their potential. It's hard to call a guy a miss when he's produced, an he's only 2 years older than a guy like Schroeder.Eddie Jurak said:
Is what Olynyk currently is what Ainge said he would become - a rotational big?Cellar-Door said:
I think there is some room for improvement in his game, particularly in the thinking portions of the game like defensive positioning and shot selection. And he should continue to build strength, provided he continues to hit the weights - I lift more at 42 than I did at 22, by a huge margin (all while not really changing my body type). I think Danny viewed him as a safer pick - one which I am happy with, particularly with the influx for lottery tickets coming up (and the two we have in Smart and Young).
FWIW I am a big believer in Smart - his on the ball defense is intense. Based on positioning, footwork and strength - he is going to be a bully on the court.
the main thing holding KO back is he fouls way too much to keep on the floor. I don't see huge upside in his rate & efficiency stats, but with work in the gym & better defensive IQ he could foul much less, be able to stay on the floor much more and become a very above average rotation player.
way too early to draw any conclusions on young or smart but they have shown encouraging flashes. With smart, the defense is there, but the best thing I can say about his offense is he doesn't turn it over too much.
way too early to draw any conclusions on young or smart but they have shown encouraging flashes. With smart, the defense is there, but the best thing I can say about his offense is he doesn't turn it over too much.
ALiveH said:
Seems to me that KO plays center like the point guard he once was - looking to get people involved, taking guys off the dribble, and shooting open jumpers.
What would really help KO if he developed that one go-to shot or move that he can use even when the defender knows it's coming. I know that's easier said than done, but it seems that he is so much more, well, coordinated that most centers that he should be able to develop one.
KO & Sully's natural position is PF. It's a minutes crunch b/c neither are really long enough to go up against true centers, and neither are athletic enough to stay with SFs. I think Stevens is still trying to figure out this puzzle which is why he has KO coming off the bench.
Cellar-Door said:
In that case 'Real Plus Minus' becomes more of an indication of a players teammates rather than the players 'real' value in which case the stat is really misleading.
We're probably saying the same thing but the Center position is very important but with the given talent pool in the NBA there are some elite guys and some JAGs. It doesnt matter what JAG you have, but it certainly has a big impact on your team if you have an elite C.
Cellar-Door said:
In my opinion this isn't the result of a lack of value in the position, but rather the league moving away from post offense to shooting. The supply of centers who can defend and shoot is really low; it's not that the NBA has selected against players who fill that role because they wouldn't be useful.
There probably isn't a single center in the league who is great at defending the post, the rim and shooting 3's. There are a few guys who are very good at two of the three, but I don't think there is one true stretch five who is also a good overall defender. LaMarcus Aldridge probably comes closest. Anthony Davis still needs to work on his outside shot and post defense to be a stretch five. If Joel Embiid can do all three of those things I think he will end up being the most valuable player in the league.
I'm not even sure what this is supposed to mean. The C spot has been used defensively for a generation now. There aren't a lot of seven footers that shoot threes period. Anthony Davis is also not a C and the Pelicans go out of their way to keep him out of there.moly99 said:
I was referring to Sullinger and Olynyk, AliveH was clearly implying that they were both athletic enough to be PFs. They aren't. Zeller has the athleticism, he just isn't terribly good. Defensively he's the best PF/C they have (which should be terrifying).Koufax said:
My point was that with Zeller playing center, the team won't need to put Sullinger and Olynyk on the floor together. I guess I'm more optimistic about Zeller than you are. And I thought I was the local nattering nabob of negativism.
Zeller absolutely has some upside. He was a good faceup big at UNC who runs the floor extremely well. If he was this amazing rim protector too he would not have been traded to the cs for nada.
And i also do notice when zeller leaves the other team tends to go into attack mode. Dont have the stats handy but I feel zellers been just fine defensively this year.
And i also do notice when zeller leaves the other team tends to go into attack mode. Dont have the stats handy but I feel zellers been just fine defensively this year.
southshoresoxfan said:
Compared to Olynyk/Sullinger he is more than fine and had instant chemistry with Rondo as UNC ran very similar sets with their own pick-n-roll PG who couldn't shoot in Kendall Marshall. I wouldn't call that "upside" since things will change once Rondo moves on and once we acquire bigs who can defend their position Zeller will no longer be an upgrade defensively over what we have. He's a decent enough 5th big but when he's in your top-4 big rotation you are going to be looking for upgrades.
I wasn't really trying to imply that KO or Sully were any great shakes defensively at PF. But, PF is probably their best fit defensively. At C they can't defend the rim. At SF they'd get completely torched by any above-average offensive player. At least at PF (or coming off the bench to look for favorable matchups), they have a shot at not being a clear defensive negative.
This isn't how RPM works, no. Theoretically, Olynyk and Zeller would have the same RPM on any team. This is obviously not the case in real life, but that's the platonic ideal of what RPM is shooting for.wutang112878 said:
Without getting into a long debate about how well RPM is doing this (I think the answer is surprisingly well), there's nothing super "smell test" wrong with the Celtics having two centers in the top 10 so far. Being in the top 10 just isn't super significant given the distribution of talent at the position, and really in the NBA.
RPM scores Zeller as 1.83 points / 100 possessions above average, and Olynyk 0.66 points/100 possessions. Weighting for minutes, that's 1.15 points/100 possessions, which is about 1.01 points per game given how much they actually see the court. It's just not a huge impact by itself.
If Sully is only good as a bench player then the Celtics are in worse shape than I originally posited. He's one of the best players on the team and the best of the young players who are supposed to be the team's future. So we are slipping from "We have nobody who is very good" to (barring Rondo) "We have nobody who should be a starter in the NBA."ALiveH said:
Oh, the misery.
Sully can be the starting power forward on a good team, provided that team has a very good/elite rim protector at center. I think best case scenario is occasional All-Star. Likewise, Olynk can (probably) be a starting center provided he is paired with a long 4 who can protect the rim. Zeller is back up C/rotational big.
If anything, the shooting you get out of Sully and Kelly seems to be a boon for the team's flexibility going forward (i.e. once Rondo is gone.) There are very few elite two way centers (Boogie, Dwight and.... ). Elite rim protectors with limited offense are not exactly plentiful but exist in much greater numbers. If you are getting the spacing you should out of even just a league average PG, you can afford to have a big with no offense when you are playing him along with Sully or Kelly.
If anything, the shooting you get out of Sully and Kelly seems to be a boon for the team's flexibility going forward (i.e. once Rondo is gone.) There are very few elite two way centers (Boogie, Dwight and.... ). Elite rim protectors with limited offense are not exactly plentiful but exist in much greater numbers. If you are getting the spacing you should out of even just a league average PG, you can afford to have a big with no offense when you are playing him along with Sully or Kelly.
At the 5 neither can defend the rim. At the 4 neither of them can defend the perimeter. This is their problem not that they are playing out of position.ALiveH said: